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So, I've got this situation while in AMX 13 90 on Campinovka, where it was demanded to me that I should go and scout the eastern forest.

I hesitated, because it's already quite obvious that they would be coming that way, and the starting hill was quite good observation spot. Also, I felt that scouting the forest would be suiscouting, because i would need to approach them head-on, and AMX 13 90 is not the most manevurable light tank (although there wasn't any other scout).

So, I've started to move, but then some TD ordered me to stay, reinforcing my thoughts that we defend and I'm not needed to scout. So I've ultimately stayed. Impatient arty got pissed off and went scouting himself, and this is the moment, I think, that I should've conceded, but then, the amount of aggresion in chat just made me more stubborn. One funny thing was some premium accusing low tiers (me) of cowardice - well, good for him, in his 'no matter what I do I earn shitloads of cash' heavy tank camping even behind the TDs. Also, actually, besides defence maps camping is the thing I do the least - I've chosen grinding french light/medium tree because I was in awe of the pure win which ensues when you are able to flank/pincer/backstab enemy with them - although, it often ends in failure, when heavies just stay behind cover and don't attempt to help with the manouver (who's the sissy then?).

After insults team-damaging followed - funny thing, they've damaged my optics and radio, so ironically even if I wanted, I couldn't scout then. Though it was ultimately not needed - we've won this with losing 5 tanks on our side; I've done about 2k dmg (would be more, but team-damaging also damaged my ammo rack, welcome 80s drum reload time), completely unhindered by the enemy (wish I could say that about my team).

Anyway, after all this I would like to ask for advice - for now I think that I probably should have gone scouting, because it could be a problem if the enemy team passed the forest unhindered. Though, is it possible? The arty that gone scouting didn't enter the forest, yet ultimately we were able to spot the enemy in the forest, so perhaps spotting from the hill was enough? They would anyway need to leave the forest and go uphill, where they would be easy target (or not? maybe the uphill is hilly itself, I don't remember). When it is approx. known where enemy is, is there any sense in ordering suiscouting into the no-man's land between the fronts? I've never actually tried to play scouting, I'm not the brightest person there ;) and have problem with understanding the spotting mechanics.

Also, why people are so mean? (the "mommy, why world is evil?" kind of question ;) ) It is only a game, yet the amount of noob-calling is much greater than in any other game.
First tank killed is from our team - "OMG WE GONNA LOSE NOOB TEAM"
We've lost one more tank then the enemy team - "GOD WHY YOU PUT ME IN THE NEWB TEAM"
Why such fatalism and whining when the game isn't even decided?
And, even if we will lost, so what? Approx. 50% of games, depending on player skill in only small, +/-5% numbers; will end with defeat. If there are noobs on our team, there are noobs on their team too, if not in that, then in another match.
Why so serious? It's not clan wars or something. It's not like I'm completely stoic, I swear a lot when I, or someone else, fu... does silly thing, but I don't need the need to stop, enter chat, and share my emotional, good for nothing, opinion with others.

Sorry for my English.

In general it is a good idea in defense games to take some forward position, or at least to have a silent scout in a forward position. This way the enemy can be spotted on his approach and be shot without giving him the opportunity to return a lot of fire. Especially on an open map such as malinovka this can make all the difference.
Just camping in the base most often is suicidal, one gets softened up by arty and then assaulted.

In that sense the team wasn't entirely wrong.

Anyway, it's kind of funny when the first one to get killed says "lost! omg noobs!" in chat. Usually that's a safe sign that one is going to win that match in my experience ;-)

As long as you got something like binocs the bush around E7 or F7(?) is a very good spot from the defending side. You can see tanks coming on both sides as long as they dont move all to far against the red line. Apart from that you can especcialy towards the forrest get behind the enemy lines or in the side of the hopefully damaged tanks by finishing them. Because they got trees and bushes on both sides i think scouting is quite essential as long as its dont correctly. No point in having a suiciding scout.

To answer your second question because ppl in general are <bad word>. If i can take a situation of my own this afternoon where i was in the patton rolling a t110 alone. At that point i was around 150 hitpoints left and a full HP 1390 got into my back. With the exp you build up over time you can hope for 1 more shot and could choose either finish the T110 off, which i did +/- 1800 damage to already, or shoot amx1390 once and hope for an ammo rack. Naturally i decided to shoot the T110, at that point our GW tiger started raging at me for being a killstealer (after countless helps he finally decided by shooting in once on 1 of the tanks which was on my side) and kept namecalling me during the full game mostly not founded on anything.
Edited by Chrusaor, 05 July 2012 - 05:28 PM.

In my humble not-so-accomplished-scout opinion, you're the scout, it's your call. At the very least you show more insight than most scouts do (who will just rush headlong into the enemy to light up as many of them as they can before getting their ass kicked and getting their scout medal), so... yeah. Add to that you had a reason to not want to go into the forest (which I agree with, a T-50-2 might've been able to pull it off though), and could back it up too. So let the people talk.

Personally I enjoy it when people start raging because I just wind them up some more, if it's getting annoying and/or distracting, I put them on ignore to solve the problem. Team damage is either a report, or if they are intent on actually killing me, the bastard's coming with me.

Instead of suicide scouting try out some of the bushes.
There's one particular position I always take with a light/med equipped with a camo net.
Depends on your camo skill and stats though.

As for your teammates, don't care about them, at the very least everyone can play the game the way he/she wants to.
That's what mmo's are all about.

I had a battle a couple of days ago, in which a obj 704 teammember tried to get me killed in my E-75 by telling the enemy my position.
You know like "noob camp E-75 at A-3" "A-2" "A-1" ...
Decided not to care about some obvious troll and killed the rest of the enemies.

The best you can with such childish behaviour is putting up a even better show,
had some of my best results in games where people kept spouting nonsense.

"Accepting" is a great way of playing mmos.
Just accept things you can't change like people's characters and behaviour.
I'm not their parent so I don't care if they are rude rascals ;).
Edited by Peo01, 05 July 2012 - 05:05 PM.

I don't understand the need for heavy drivers to insist that someone else suicide scouts in those situations. It happened to me, same tank, same map, I was team killed by an E-100 driver for refusing with less than 2 minutes left on the clock. It only took one shot since I'd already taken damage from fighting.

So I say, if you want to go and scout with your AMX13 90, no problem. But if you don't want to or, like in your case [and mine], it would be pointless then nobody should be demanding.

If you're defending Malinovka, someone has to go down into the woods on the east and west flanks to spot for the TDs and Arty on the hill.  It just makes it so much easier to win.  If your team doesn't get this done, the first time your TDs get sight of the attackers is when the attackers get sight of them.  It's far better for your mediums to be duking it out in those woods and keeping their scouts at bay so their arty and TDs can't target the big guns on the hill, but your big guns can fire right down into the guys you're lighting up.

Having said that, I find it better for the mediums to engage the first wave of attackers in the woods around the church on the western flank, and for bush scouts (like you) to spot anyone coming up the woods on the east.  There's just more room for mediums to do their thing on the west.

I once played a Malinovka defence in an E-75 where absolutely no-one was going to move off that hill, and I ended up being the one who went down, alone, into the eastern woods to dance with two T-54s an E-75 and an IS-4.  Of course, since I was the only one who went forward, all the enemy artillery concentrated fire on me too - I was the only one visible to anyone on the enemy team.  Stayed alive for 8 extremely tense minutes while my team poured hell into the guys attacking me.  But the point here is, they could only do that because I went forward alone.  If I hadn't, the guys camping the hill would only have been able to open fire once they were coming under fire themselves, instead of being able to snipe with impunity at a bunch of tanks who could only see one target - me.

Of course they all called me a noob for going down there, completely failing to understand why they had free shots at half the enemy team.

If you want to learn how to be a scout, try the new comers forum and search for "How to be a scout"... Lots of great stof to learn from...

 EickhardtSr, on 05 July 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

I would think by the time you get to the 13 90 you already know when to switch between scout, flank, hit and run, and ambush in the 13 series

To the OP, what you do with your tank in a battle is completely down to you. Treat all demands that you do something as a request, consider all reasoned requests (as players that ask nicely or tell you why usually have a half decent game plan in mind), and offer your own advice or counter if you feel it relevant. This game needs more good communication outside the ordering, name calling, blaming, and outright abuse.

As to Malinovka/Assault; played it as defender a fair few times now and as Jingles says the defending team that gets scouts out and spots incoming generally does well for the reasons Jingle points out. The big hitters on the hill don't have to constantly shift and avoid arty or return fire because they can't be spotted yet but the scout is lighting up all the incoming for them to damage/kill before they get into 'view' range. If you do scout you can't just sit in the woods as you'll be spotted by heavies with their greater spotting range and have to move sharpish to stay alive. There are a couple of good hiding spots but you also need an evac plan in mind if the enemy pushes hard. And again you need to communicate, such as 'scouting push West XX, running for cover in XX when spotted'. Saying something like that can help the good players keep an eye in the right place, and provide cover when you need to run, it can also forestall the lesser players from following you down when they see the green dots moving if they know you're not going to be hanging around.

AlfieUK4 has it (no +1s left!)

Once you have a fair number of battles under your belt - and I assume you do having a '90 - do your own thing in a battle, don't let your team mates' pressure sway you. You 'probably' have more experience in your tank than they do so you know its limitations and strengths better than they do. If you really don't want to scout don't do it.

Now don't get me wrong, certain tanks should be doing certain things in certain battles, and if you're a light tank or a low tier in a big-boy battle then unfortunately scouting is your thing. But you're well within your rights to do it intelligently, passive in a bush at a chokepoint or peeking round corners in front of your heavy's push. Suicide scouting has its moments but they're few and far between.

Also: pay attention to pings on the map, especially if you're one of the more mobile tanks: they may have seen something you haven't. But in my experience if they ping more than twice, ignore em . It always irrationally annoys me when I've seen a developing situation on the minimap and am responding with alacrity only to have some guy under a bit of pressure desperately spamming his own location when I've been heading there for the last 30 seconds. Although it's awesome to 'affirmative' seconds before you kill the guy pressuring your team mate, makes you feel pro as hell!

Thanks for all yours insightful posts, I've run out of +1s I see I will need to educate myself more about scouting, even if I don't like being a scout (actually, I don't think I've ever played a match as a scout ), it would help me with understanding spotting mechanics, as playing an arty helped me to not being wrecked by it in every match when playing my LTs

Well,

People try to say, that if you have your 13 90, then you should know how to scout. I have the amx1390 and absolutely do not like to use it as a scout! For me it is a weird hybrid, where the greatest advantage is,that when the enemy spreads out, then you might be able to creep through a hole, and attack heavy TD or arty - Or even Heavy tanks, which you can circle while shooting.

The real scout, that does the best job by far, is the T-50-2! I love that little thing, But chaffee is also great for silent scouting, if you have the patience to stay still ;)

Ofcourse the amx1390 could be utilized as a scout, but then it should be on the drivers initiative, and not all the "Besserwissers" out there. Amazing so many guys, that knows better than you, how you should play your role. <-- Irony

People have in their minds that all light tanks are suppose to be scouts. amx series are defenetly not scouts and should not be used as such, unless you're left alone with arty. Any medium will do much better in that role.

When I play my T-50 or T-50-2 as a member of the defending team, I always go scouting. Yesterday, for example I went to C5. Enemies couldn't pass the usual spawning area in a normal game without being shot at. Someone on the other team called me a cheater. None of them could make it to the church.

From my "attacker" point of view, a team defending without a scout is a dead team. With T-50-2 70km/h it is easy to avoid long range fire. If I can make it to the bottom of the hill, then I  can spot every enemy camping there. Of course, they will focus on me and move to the edge making my team job easier.

Even if I know I will end up dead, I think my sacrifice will help my team win. I never rush into an enemy crowd without asking my teammates if they are ready or not.

Regarding AMX, I have never played one and I don't intend to in the near future, but I saw those little bastards (in a good way) on the battlefield. In OP's exapmle I think he should've scouted. He is a light tank with a view range of 400m. Hiding behind a bush could make him invisible and the "rain of shells" poured by teammates against enemies he would have spotted would kept him safe. In the end it was his decision and I don't support team damage/kills because someone doesn't do what I/others say.

Disagree on the amx part of the post, as there are different types of AMX's:

AMX12t: Fast and agile - Can be used for scouting

AMX 13 75: Fast and less agile than the amx12t - But still possible to scout with.

AMX 13 90: Ok speed, but turns in wide circles, and is then a much easier target than other true scouts. But has a great firepower.

1375/1390 is not better for scouting, than a T-44 or Type59, as these are ok with speed, and can take more hits. Especially AMX13 90 is better for supporting heavier tanks, by sneaking up upon the enemy and dealing very deadly blows, while the enemy is occupied with engagement of your heavy allies.

The only time, the AMX 13 90 is good for scouting, is in dense maps, with at lot of hide out opportunities. Or if the enemy is totally stupid, not reacting on a AMX on the minimap at full speed - Or if a wolf pack of lights are running across the map.

Normally I would trust the driver of a tank to know, what his role is - But if in doubt, or you can see an advantage in a team mate performing in another way, then you should try to give the advise in a polite manner, instead of all the n00b-shouting crap, or order giving shit, that we see on the chat. Mostly I have a feeling, that a lot of people take pride in being as rude as possible, when using the chat.

So conclusion is: Situational awareness is to be applied, and it is up to the AMX drivers own judgement weather to scout or not.Advise is welcome, but only as that: advise! ;)

If you go in to the woods on the East you are making yourself just as bilnd as the attackers.  Better to just sit in one of the bushes slightly down the slope.  Not move and not shoot.  The attackers have to cross open ground in front of you.  As long as you have big guns behind you to do the damage you and they will be safe.

Most players don't have the sphericals to sit tight though.

 Homer_J, on 06 July 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

That is correct - And thebest tank for this, would be the chaffee with its great cammo value - ye AMX is more exposed.

Get in a bush where is at a place you can scout all enemy team without getting scouted. If your arties are good you will win with a good score like 15-5 etc. If your arty sux you have nothing to do :D . Play in platoon.

OP wrote this:

 Veln, on 05 July 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

 AlfieUK4, on 05 July 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

So! Apparently he hasn't... That's why I wrote it... Obviously, I wouldn't have, If he hadn't done that...

Know the feeling. I own a Chaffee and some people think that I am suppose to do tricks that only a T-50-2 can perform, and if I don't rush and spot arty in my Chaffee I am a very big noob.

Slightly off topic, but that thing when the enmy has "more kills than your team", that does not mean shiet for me. EVERY game CAN be turned around given the right teamwork or enemy mistakes. Unless either you or the remaining teammates are somewhat competent you can always turn a loosed game to a winning game, and if you still loose, well you gave it your best. I remember in my T95 were there was me and 2 more vs 9. I got 8 kills and we won

Back to topic try to ignore the teamdamagers, and stay around your TDs (if you have any) because I think they matter the most on defending maps. And if you stay around your TDs you are probably already in a nice spotting position for your arty.