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T44 got nerfed?


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Sykotic #21 Posted 30 September 2010 - 03:58 PM

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View Postvlasterx, on 30 September 2010 - 02:43 PM, said:

So how do you explain reduced accuracy, weaker armour, less dings? How do you explain that almost every shot deals damage when it wasn't the situation when 0.5 has gone live? If you remember, there were more higher level tanks in every match then there is now.

T44 can also become nerfed if every other tank in game is boosted. Maybe that happened?
Judging by your signature it doesn't look like you played the T-44 pre-wipe. I may be wrong about that and if so please correct me. However, if I am right and you did not play a T-44 pre-wipe then what are you basing "reduced accuracy, weaker armour, less dings" on?

I haven't heard any specific complaints about the T-44 post-wipe other than the increased repair costs, the reduced engine power, and the matchmaking system where the T-44 gets slaughtered by IS-4s and IS-7. Further, there was no mention of any other changes to the T-44. Several vehicles did get changed, but not enough vehicles were changed to where the T-44 would be weaker by comparison. The developers have been very honest about all the tank/balance changes they have made and I see no reason they would do a stealth nerf.

As for my explanation, my opinion is that the player base is getting much more skilled. People are using better tactics (still woefully short of "good" tactics, but better than it was pre-wipe). People have learned how to counter the T-44 and how to not expose themselves as much to the T-44's strengths.

TomaszWadas #22 Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:16 PM

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They really weakened the T44? since when? If they really cut engine power (its only virtue) are stupid!

IS series should be weakened, because it is too strong now. Almost as fast as medium tanks, incredible defense and has power.


If so forth is going to happen then no one will play MEDIUM, because everyone will want to have a super duper IS or artillery.

DemonicSpoon #23 Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:47 PM

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Don't have a T-44, but my theory is this:

Pre-wipe, it was pretty much the perfect scout. When the average enemy was tier 5-6, you could lol around at high speeds and two-shot pretty much anything you ran into, which gave the T-44 the illusion of power.

Now, when a T-44 is fighting, on average, other t8 tanks, it doesn't seem quite so badass and its flaws (weakish armor and gun) start to show.

That does not make it a bad tank. It does quite well when used properly and in my experience it's about as effective as a panther.

Sykotic #24 Posted 30 September 2010 - 05:09 PM

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View PostDemonicSpoon, on 30 September 2010 - 04:47 PM, said:

Now, when a T-44 is fighting, on average, other t8 tanks, it doesn't seem quite so badass and its flaws (weakish armor and gun) start to show.
I rarely fight Tier 8 Heavy Tanks. It is a losing proposition for me in the T-44. I will take a shot at them, but flee as fast as I can. If an enemy Tier 8 is engaged with one of my team's Heavy Tanks then I might maneuver behind the enemy tank and shot them in the back as long as the don't shift their focus to me. Tier 9 and Tier 10 tanks I completely ignore. I have given up trying to engage them at all. I might take a shot at them as I am passing by them if there are no other tanks in range to take a shot at instead.

I also try to avoid engaging the JagdPanther and the Panther if I can. The JagdPanther has a good enough traversal speed combined with a powerful gun to be very troublesome to engage if I have to close an distance on them. The Panther I can beat fairly regularly, but I will be hurt a lot in the process and will be less effective after that encounter (something will be damaged or I will be low on health).

I fully admit that I am an opportunistic bully when I am in the T-44. I try to pick on Scouts, Arty, Tier 7 and lower Mediums/Heavies. I look for ways to hang back and then stab an enemy tank in the back when they are engaged with one of my teammates. I very rarely ever go off on my own anymore. It just isn't very rewarding to do so.

EgoBruiser #25 Posted 30 September 2010 - 05:15 PM

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View PostSykotic, on 30 September 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:

I fully admit that I am an opportunistic bully when I am in the T-44. I try to pick on Scouts, Arty, Tier 7 and lower Mediums/Heavies. I look for ways to hang back and then stab an enemy tank in the back when they are engaged with one of my teammates. I very rarely ever go off on my own anymore. It just isn't very rewarding to do so.

Exactly how I drove mine pre-patch and it was super effective. After clearing out all the smaller tanks/scouts, I would then roll out and scout/take on larger tanks. T-44 kicks but on wiping out zippy tanks heading to your arty/scouting, I love it for this role.

DemonicSpoon #26 Posted 30 September 2010 - 05:38 PM

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It's not really a bad thing that going off on your own is punished.

vlasterx #27 Posted 30 September 2010 - 06:42 PM

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View PostSykotic, on 30 September 2010 - 03:58 PM, said:

Judging by your signature it doesn't look like you played the T-44 pre-wipe. I may be wrong about that and if so please correct me. However, if I am right and you did not play a T-44 pre-wipe then what are you basing "reduced accuracy, weaker armour, less dings" on?

I haven't heard any specific complaints about the T-44 post-wipe other than the increased repair costs, the reduced engine power, and the matchmaking system where the T-44 gets slaughtered by IS-4s and IS-7. Further, there was no mention of any other changes to the T-44. Several vehicles did get changed, but not enough vehicles were changed to where the T-44 would be weaker by comparison. The developers have been very honest about all the tank/balance changes they have made and I see no reason they would do a stealth nerf.

As for my explanation, my opinion is that the player base is getting much more skilled. People are using better tactics (still woefully short of "good" tactics, but better than it was pre-wipe). People have learned how to counter the T-44 and how to not expose themselves as much to the T-44's strengths.

I'll explain in more detail.

All calculations are being done on server, not the game client, right? SO, during the beta phase, devs don't really need to update client every time if they want to make some modifications in the game. It has been obvious that experience points have been reduced together with credit income on some tanks, without any patches for game client. Since server calculate everything during the battle, why wouldn't it be possible to silently tweak tank characteristics as well since it doesn't really need any client update?

That leads me to my point - T44 is not the same tank now as it was on the beginning of 0.5 patch. It is more then obvious that it is more easily destroyed then before when confronting the same enemies (and even weaker enemies) and that the gun is less accurate then before (before = beginning of 0.5 beta). When 0.5 started we had stronger enemies then now because everyone had money to buy lvl9/10 tank and now after most of that players lost their money and since better balance system is introduced, we actually fight weaker opponents.

Sykotic #28 Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:59 PM

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View Postvlasterx, on 30 September 2010 - 06:42 PM, said:

All calculations are being done on server, not the game client, right? SO, during the beta phase, devs don't really need to update client every time if they want to make some modifications in the game. It has been obvious that experience points have been reduced together with credit income on some tanks, without any patches for game client. Since server calculate everything during the battle, why wouldn't it be possible to silently tweak tank characteristics as well since it doesn't really need any client update?
Sure, they COULD do that. However, I am saying that I have not seen any instances that they have done that. They have been very open with most of the gameplay/balance changes they have been making. Not everything makes it in to the patch notes you read, but it is typically discussed in the forums at the very least. The Developer's Corner has 2 sub-forums that the developers read/respond to more than other forums. The Questions forum and the Suggestions forum. Both are heavily moderated and have minimum post requirements before players can even submit a topic to those forums. As such, they aren't filled with a ton of new player questions/suggestions. This makes it much more readable and a much higher information:garbage ratio than in other forums. If you want to see what the devs are saying/doing then I would suggest visiting those 2 forums.


View Postvlasterx, on 30 September 2010 - 06:42 PM, said:

That leads me to my point - T44 is not the same tank now as it was on the beginning of 0.5 patch. It is more then obvious that it is more easily destroyed then before when confronting the same enemies (and even weaker enemies) and that the gun is less accurate then before (before = beginning of 0.5 beta). When 0.5 started we had stronger enemies then now because everyone had money to buy lvl9/10 tank and now after most of that players lost their money and since better balance system is introduced, we actually fight weaker opponents.
I fail to see how you can unequivocally state that the T-44 is a much weaker tank post-wipe than pre-wipe when you didn't play the tank pre-wipe. Your observations of the tank pre-wipe will all be 3rd person observations of the tank and not 1st person. Since the balance system has been tweaked I have been doing even better in the T-44. It is back to it's pre-wipe glory of driving through the enemy ranks and dishing out pain and suffering to all in it's path. Ok, not all games are like that, but more so than the first 2 weeks post-wipe.

I have noticed the difference in engine power (the acceleration is a little slower), but honestly the T-44 seems to be the same tank as it was pre-wipe. My contention is that the increase in Tier 8+ Heavy Tanks and the increasing skill of the average player are the main contributors to the T-44's reduction in dominance that was seen pre-wipe.

Skraeling #29 Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:15 PM

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Nerf rock. Paper is fine.
-Scissors

HURRRR #30 Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:32 PM

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T-44 is fine. Just don't go alone.

Sykotic #31 Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:48 PM

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View PostSkraeling, on 30 September 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

Nerf rock. Paper is fine.
-Scissors
Ok, that made me smile. +1 for you!

Asky_ #32 Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:57 PM

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View PostSkraeling, on 30 September 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

Nerf rock. Paper is fine.
-Scissors


:D:D:D sorry mods but that was too funny to let it go!

vlasterx #33 Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:26 PM

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View PostSykotic, on 30 September 2010 - 07:59 PM, said:

I fail to see how you can unequivocally state that the T-44 is a much weaker tank post-wipe than pre-wipe when you didn't play the tank pre-wipe.

Do I have to draw pictures when I was quite literal in every sentence I wrote? You even quote my sentences and reply to some things I never wrote about. It's clear as a day that you haven't read anything I wrote.

1. T44 from the beginning of 0.5 beta is not the same as T44 in this stage of 0.5 beta. That's what I'm talking about.  
2. WEAKER tanks from lower tiers have MUCH more success against T44 in this stage of 0.5 beta then at the beginning of 0.5 beta
3. T44 armor dings less in this stage of 0.5 beta then at the beginning of 0.5 beta and as a consequence, more hits do damage, more shots do critical damage
4. T44's 100mm gun is less accurate in this stage of 0.5 beta then at the beginning of 0.5 beta

Something else not clear about my claims?

Yes I have played much with this tank and I can notice the difference. Many other players that drive T44 have told me the same. This is not whining post, this is just stating the obvious and I would hate to see another game where developers cave in to tears from groups of players that clearly don't know how to play. I have seen that soooooo many times that it gets really annoying after a while. Great games become lousy because of that and I would hate to see it happening here when game goes live (I know that beta is time for tweaking).

At the moment, T44 doesn't feel like tier 8 medium tank.

Sykotic #34 Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:32 PM

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View PostAsky, on 30 September 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

:D:D:D sorry mods but that was too funny to let it go!
Agreed. I posted that quote for other Moderators/Devs to see. Kind of got us off-topic here though even though the quote itself was more on-topic than our replies.

I guess my real response would be that even if the T-44 got nerfed (and my position in the posts above is that it did not get any more "nerfs" than any other tank), who cares? It is still the king of all dogfighting tanks. It is probably the most feared Medium Tank in the game. Even above it's counterpart Tier 8 Medium the Panther. That fear is an advantage on the battlefield. As long as you use play to the T-44s strengths you will have a lot of fun and wreak havoc with it. What more could you ask for?

Sykotic #35 Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:41 PM

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View Postvlasterx, on 30 September 2010 - 10:26 PM, said:

Do I have to draw pictures when I was quite literal in every sentence I wrote? You even quote my sentences and reply to some things I never wrote about. It's clear as a day that you haven't read anything I wrote.

1. T44 from the beginning of 0.5 beta is not the same as T44 in this stage of 0.5 beta. That's what I'm talking about.  
2. WEAKER tanks from lower tiers have MUCH more success against T44 in this stage of 0.5 beta then at the beginning of 0.5 beta
3. T44 armor dings less in this stage of 0.5 beta then at the beginning of 0.5 beta and as a consequence, more hits do damage, more shots do critical damage
4. T44's 100mm gun is less accurate in this stage of 0.5 beta then at the beginning of 0.5 beta
1. Unless you provide us with quantifiable evidence of this (numbers, statistics, etc...) then it is nothing more than subjective opinion. That does not mean it is wrong, but if you want the developers to put serious consideration in to your claims you need to have something more substantial than "it feels weaker".
2. There were bugs in the penetration system in patch 0.4.x that caused a lot of shots to not penetrate when they should have. That was fixed in patch 0.5.x. Therefore the shots that SHOULD have been penetrating the T-44 pre-patch are now actually penetrating the T-44 post-patch. Expect further refinement in the penetration mechanic in the future.
3. See point 2.
4. See point 1 about quantifiable evidence.


p.s. I read everything you wrote. Just because I did not respond to every aspect of your post does not mean I didn't read it. It just means I didn't feel it warranted a response.

p.p.s. And yes, I would like pictures. They must have unicorns and rainbows in them. And pink bunny rabbits.  :-)

vlasterx #36 Posted 01 October 2010 - 12:29 AM

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View PostSykotic, on 30 September 2010 - 10:41 PM, said:

1. Unless you provide us with quantifiable evidence of this (numbers, statistics, etc...) then it is nothing more than subjective opinion. That does not mean it is wrong, but if you want the developers to put serious consideration in to your claims you need to have something more substantial than "it feels weaker".
2. There were bugs in the penetration system in patch 0.4.x that caused a lot of shots to not penetrate when they should have. That was fixed in patch 0.5.x. Therefore the shots that SHOULD have been penetrating the T-44 pre-patch are now actually penetrating the T-44 post-patch. Expect further refinement in the penetration mechanic in the future.
3. See point 2.
4. See point 1 about quantifiable evidence.


p.s. I read everything you wrote. Just because I did not respond to every aspect of your post does not mean I didn't read it. It just means I didn't feel it warranted a response.

p.p.s. And yes, I would like pictures. They must have unicorns and rainbows in them. And pink bunny rabbits.  :-)

1. When you pay me to gather statistics for you, I will gladly do it. I had ~250 battles with T44 last month and it was clear as a day that something was changed during mid september. If you want statistics, you can always check out my ingame profile. Before mid september, I had ~65% victories with T44 with ~150 battles, after that percentage has started to drop and it is now 58%. Drop in victories has begun just as I noticed that something is different with T44. It was harder to play at start then now if you look at the opponents we are facing and it is illogical that weaker tanks present greater threat.
2. You are AGAIN talking about 0.4 when we are talking only about 0.5 version and changes made since this version has started.
3. see 2
4. see 1

@p.s. You clearly haven't because we would have much nicer conversation now.
@p.p.s. If you want rainbows and unicorns, go moderate this forum ;P

General_Lee_Wick3d #37 Posted 11 October 2010 - 10:45 AM

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After 656 battles in the T-44 post soft wipe... The T-44 is still a king of the dog fight. Perhaps we lost a couple % here and there... So what... I fear no tank in my 44. I do play smart enough not go face to face with anything... Im not a sniper... I am the in your face, Foot to arse, open country terror.

vlasterx #38 Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:09 PM

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It seems that T44 is better now then before when I wrote my last message here.

enu_ #39 Posted 21 October 2010 - 09:33 PM

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what have you done with T44 now? i just won battle with premium account, kill 3 tanks and got 830 exp and 14500 credits, and for repairs 13500 and 2500 ammo
so much crying get result to destroy such a great tank?

good job on everything coders, u just lost one beta tester

Trakt0r #40 Posted 21 October 2010 - 10:09 PM

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View Postvlasterx, on 30 September 2010 - 08:58 AM, said:

View PostKutalion, on 30 September 2010 - 12:49 AM, said:

T 44 is fine as it is.

It's not fine - it's overnerfed. Small modifications and small nerfs would be fine, but now we have Tier 8 tank that is only slightly better then Tier 4/5 tanks. When you take into account all nerfs and money that this tank can bring into a game and money that it spends, it's completely unbalanced.

Whats worse about the T44, precisely? Im not seeing any documented changes in the patch notes.
Is it slower, is the armament worse than before, is there less hp, or what is it exactly?




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