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they really didn't think about balance at all imo. think they were going more for a realism type deal. not in actual damage models and stuff, but how higher tier tanks completely obliterate anything lower and how td's were just crappy tanks that were cheaper to make(but they're more expensive in this game...).

As for me TD, some thing are right but some other needs to be changed.

For sure TDs should keep high gun damage and thick frontal armour. Lower detection is also OK, I just hope that events when TD is shooting at me from ~250m and its still not detected after firing are bugged ones, not designed.
I don't have anything in mind against current accuracy of TDs guns, most of their shots hits the targets bellow 200-250m and shooting at longer range also do not shows, unneeded, Tanks accuracy advantage over TDs.

Things to change:

- TURNING FORCE : TDs are designed to hunt heavier and slower tanks and Light&Fast ones should be danger of them due to possibility of flanking them. Currently TDs, or at least some of them [ hello Hetzer], turns almost as fast as light tanks are driving around them [small exaggeration].

Turning force has to be decreased in order to more reasonable possibilities of flanking that stuff. TD's advantages are frontal armour, ambush and gun not manoeuvrability. % of Turning Force decrease should place TD's turning force around Heavy Tanks one [ as they are main target of TD's, each lighter unit should have reasonably chances to outflank them] and it might need small improvements on gun 'turning range' but I didn't tested that yet.

- Depending on results of lower vulnerability, side and read armour may need to be decreased. But that is depending on Turing Force decrease effects.
At 'armour' itself I would also gladly see higher chances to damage tracks of TDs, it would be nice if those higher chances would be limited only to side/rear shots for better gameplay

- XP level - as for me, XP requirement for TD should be a bit increased.. comparing TDs with Tanks on their levels, with current gameplay, shows rather visible TD's advantage so they should be more costly and later achieved at least.

HarrlessonPL, on 11 July 2010 - 11:38 AM, said:

you have obviously not seen the russian td tree. low armor and expensive. the exact opposite of what you're saying.

Harrlesson, from what i heard and what i saw the Hetzer is one of the slowest turning TD's there is in the lower tiers, the SU 76 on the other hand seems to be able to turn faster then an upgraded Luchs can run circles around it.

Cragger, your kinda wrong there,they were easier, faster and cheaper to build, but in most cases they used existing chassis, mostly from obsolete tanks who couldn't fit the same gun in a turret that a TD on the same chassis could, and thus couldn't be effective against other tanks. The Tiger was build around being a tank that could mount the 8.8 cm KwK 36 L/56, the Nashron that debuted at Kursk had the 88 mm (3.46 in) PaK 43/1, which was better and what the Tiger 2 used.

Quote

My bad, I forgot to mention that it's mostly about German TDs.
Russians TDs seems finer for me, but still both nations TDs should have turning force of ~heavy tanks anyway with small adjustments per each vehicle [ eventual compensation with gun firing angle].
Imho both nations TDs should have hight gun damage & low turning rate& track-damage resistance when German goes more for frontal armour and Russians go a bit more for top speed instead

@other thing - will there be a limit of TD in battle room or later TD-free game mode??

HarrlessonPL, on 11 July 2010 - 12:21 PM, said:

need this. the more td's on our team the greater the chance of losing.

Things should come to normal without any artificial constrainsts on the number of TDs per room. TDs become the less popular the more people learn about them, so in 1-1.5 weaks you probaly won`t see more then 3 TDs per team.

I hope you right then.. but it also means that for next 1-1,5 week I will see rooms full of TDs ... good that at least I'm getting close to 107mm :F

TDs should have stronger guns. They are tank destroyers afterall, so it's kinda stupid that mediums can have similar or stronger guns at the same tier (I'm looking at you, PzIV with the ridiculous Panther turret installed!).

HarrlessonPL, on 11 July 2010 - 11:38 AM, said:

So, in reality, you want TDs nerfed to the point where they are unplayable? Compared to medium tanks they don't turn quickly, they don't have good armour, their guns aren't really any better and since they usually need multiple shots to kill a medium tank, they're usually then killed by the SPGs. They are less detectable, sure, but that is a very short lived advantage when they really don't have a firepower advantage in the early tiers. Don't get me wrong I enjoy the challenge of playing them, but they aren't exactly king of the battlefield any more than the SPGs are in later tiers.

Yeah, I just went up to a hetzer in the TD route - not fun at all.

Lag warping makes hitting moving targets impossible.

Even an ambush shot isn't enough to penetrate someone or dish out a significant % of damage - what ends up happening is that medium tanks of the same tier can outgun me and kill me straight away. They will move a bit, screwing up my aim, then stop for a split second and shoot. Then they will hit.

Archer2338, on 11 July 2010 - 05:32 PM, said:

I agree with this.

my SU-76 is embarassing...

And my old AT-1 was much much bette; it's strange but...why?!

Well, a lot of great TD discussion here, but to be honest, you just need to learn how to play the vehicle. I played TD's on both sides in the Russian beta up to the SU100 and the JagdPanther....the whole time with IS-7's roaming around and lots of IS's of various marks. You can survive and participate no matter what TD you drive and no matter what you are up against. This isn't a guide on how to play your TD, just some methods that I used/use to survive on the battlefield.

1) You are a DEFENSIVE vehicle....you should either be defending your base, OR IF advancing do so at least one grid - 2 grid squares BEHIND the front line...if you see all the tanks in front of you die, then dont' keep advancing, retreat..and find a place to hide and wait. PATIENCE is a big requirement for playing a TD successfully.
2) You are a DEFENSIVE vehicle...if you see most of the team going right, then you and your other TD's should be moving to hold the LEFT side of the map, preferably with a scout running around for you 2-3 grid squares in front to light up any tanks coming your way. Try to impress upon your light tanks (especially the noobs who don't know what to do in that T-46 or PZIIIA) that there is an important job you can do and that they get exp when they light up a target for you to shoot at.
3) Team play, you need to TALK to your SPG's try to get one to focus on watching where you are defending...after all....if the light tanks get past you (and they will) guess who they will be making a bee-line for! Oh, and you are a DEFENSIVE vehicle.
4) Shoot and Scoot!!!! Once a vehicle gets close enough to see you, get moving, stop to shoot, then move...you are a PRIME SPG TARGET...stay still and you are more than likely dead by Arty (if nothing else decides to shoot you at range)....and remember, if you manage to kill the vehicle that you were shooting at and it had you lit up....you will stay lit up AFTER IT DIES for about 5 seconds or so....just MOVE.
  I have more, but these should get you started.
    Cheers!
      mazer

mazer, on 11 July 2010 - 06:06 PM, said:

This still fails to justify the use of a TD instead of a medium/heavy tank "playing" the role of a TD with the same cannon.

mazer, on 11 July 2010 - 06:06 PM, said:

like some have stated, a tank can do the same thing while having the versatility to do other things as well. the td is limited and doesn't excel at their role.

Wyvernrider, on 11 July 2010 - 06:22 PM, said:

Well, lets see...shall we compare?? I'm only going to use the standard armor piercing round and rate of fire/minute for this.
Lets look at the TIII German and the Marder II
Starter gun - 50mm Pak39 L/60 Penetrates 67 does 70 damage ROF: 30
P38t
Starter gun - 37mm kwk38(t) Penetrates 40 does 41 damage ROF: 30
PIIIA
Starter gun - 37mm kwk36 L46.5 Penetrates 34 does 32 damage ROF: 30
Hmm.......looks like the Marder can out damage both of these....and that is with the SMALLEST GUN that the Marder starts with....now that gun can penetrate most T4 & T5 tanks from some angle if not the front....you need to know what you are shooting at and where to shoot to be the most effective...a TD driver needs to be smart about picking his fights if possible....thats why you don't want to be up front.
  EVERY TD can OUTGUN a tank of it's equivalent tier....just because a Tiger has an 88mm gun doesn't mean that it will out shoot a JagdPanther with it's 88mm....cause it won't....the only time a TD will have trouble with a tank in it's equivalent tier or even 1 to 2 tiers higher is if it only is able to get off frontal shots. Even then, don't use auto aim...aim manually at a tanks vulnerable spots...they all have them...
  Is this what you were looking for?? Whoever is saying "why play a td over a tank" has never played a TD successfully....it's just a different play style...and like a good tanker can be lethal....so can a skilled TD driver...and you are more than a threat in most cases and the more experienced players will always try to take out the TD over a tank first....
  This is my .02....not gospel...take my advice or not...TD's have some issues, but so far, no one here seems to be discussing those.
  Cheers!

I'm having some more luck in my Hetzer than I was in my Marder. Better gun, better gunners now, although I can't afford to convert them all to Hetzer crew yet. Slow as all hell though, and turns like an oil tanker. Seriously I can't possibly imagine why this needs to turn slower. Good little ambush vehicle though, thanks to the low profile and the big gun. I find that it actually works best when there are more obvious targets about to soak up fire, however I just wish that maybe the gun could have a little more first hit stopping power.

Cannon on Jagdpanzer (TD) and cannon on VK3601 and VK3001 (medium). All are tier 6 tanks.

otirruborez, on 11 July 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

Actually, you're right, a tank can do everything....but the TD is better in the defensive role and as a sniper...you may not see it now....but you will see it as folks begin to play their TD's better...I think a lot of the current TD players will stop and go tank because they don't understand the difference....there is....I prove it every game .
  Cheers!