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Check out the new ESL Company Cup! - play for 1,350,000 gold!

this will be replacing the Fun Cup on their roster for the time being

GL HF!

If you need help getting started, feel free to contact me

Twitter: sne91
skype: aimbulance_gb
email: sne@turtle-entertainment.de

or ingame
Edited by aimbulance_gb, 25 May 2012 - 08:20 AM.

congratulations on great organisation:

that's how the page with rules looked like before yesterday's matches:
http://szerszak.repu....pl/wot/esl.jpg

specifically, if someone didn't bothered with reading rules and went straight to the full rules (and it's supposed that full rules are most important document) he could read:

Quote

2.7.5.1. Win

A battle is won if:

• All enemy vehicles are destroyed within the timelimit
  
• The enemy base is captured within the timelimit

If the match ends draw (no temas destroyed or base wasn't captured) the team with at least 8 tierpoints difference, wins the fight. To gain 8 tierpoints you can kill any tank and add their tierpoints together

So both teams in this match:
http://www.esl.eu/eu...match/26230678/
played according to the rules that were written on official ESL page as a Full rules.

After the battle was changed into draw and next battle against BIA was changed as walkover for BIA, people got confused. They got an answer from an ESL admin from BIA, about new rules.
When players from TT XL showed up the rules on the page they played according to, those rules got quickly updated and sne added a patronising comment:

sne said:

and closed comments under the match.

It's not even about the unlucky coincidence of ESL admin taking sides here and profiting team being from one clan. That's beside the point, the story would be the same if the next opponent would be from other clan.

Point is, that if you have no admin of ESL in your clan, you have problem, because you don't know what the rules of tournament you play are, since version that was planned to be is more important ten the version that is written on the rules page.

And knowing how ESL site is quirky with their navigation and knowing that mistakes on ESL side happens a lot (I've heard enough of first hand relation how ESL admins have problems with getting mistakes corrected on rules page) it completes the disturbing image of far from professional organisation of the tournament.



This situation is clearly a fault of whoever was in charge of updateing the page with rules. You cannot blame players for not knowing the right rules if you issued wrong ones on the official rule page, plain and simple.

ESL admins refused to admit their mistake.
They didn't comepnsate for their error with best possible solution - letting teams in question replay their match (there is plenty of time to do that). I understand it may be viewed as a harmful precedense, but it's organisators fault, not participants and fortunately there are still 2 days to do that.

What is even more sad, even if they value their rules over fair play, the only decent thing to do here, absolute minimum, would be to apologise for the error made, saying that it's very unfortunate incident, a force marjeure that they couldn't predict, they are terribly sorry but cannot help in that case.
Instead of that we have "shut up and try next time" - cause that is the message from sne here, especially with closing the comments after his statement.

Considering that, the image of the ESL left from that incident is an unprofessional organisation with arrogant admins and mess in the site.
Very, very sad. I think most of the participants expect a bit more responsibility for errors from the organisers.

It's not about my clanmates being f* up in the a* by whoever made the mistake and then decided to shrug everything off. That's the reason why I noticed it so fast, but my opinion would be exactly the same if it was BIA eliminated and TT XL got a free pass to the next round. Everyone I ever talked about ESL agrees on the fact, that ESL site navigation is far from being good and it's not the first times rules are updated in one place and not in another. Next time it may be someone else harmed by the fact, that they don't know personally any admin who can confirm them, what the rules of the tournament really are.
And primitive cover up of this or huge number of cases when ESL admins clanmates have profited from mix-ups (because it's not an isolated incident) doesn't increase a trust of the players.
Edited by Gorzki, 05 June 2012 - 12:19 PM.

I dont like gorzki and his wall of texts, but i am completly agree with him ...this tournament have too much problems in organization, holes in rules,etc

World of Tanks Company Qualifier Cup #1

Popis

Battle Settings

• Teamsize: Teamsize: at least a total of 60 tierpoints
  
• Timelimit: 15 minutes
  
• Maps: As announced in the Matchsheet

Tank regulations

• The total tier of the vehicles is from 60 to 90
  
• Premium vehicles are allowed
  
• Teams may contain tanks of different nations
  
• 
  
• The highest tier for the light, medium and heavy tanks, as well as tank destroyers is 8, while the highest tier for the SPGs is 6.
  
• Total amount of vehicle tiers in one team must not exceed 90 points.

Maps and startingposition
Battles are created by one of the team captains. The team on the left side of the matchsheet creates the battle room and starts as team 1. It is possible to arrange that the team on the right side creates the battle room. In this case both teams have to agree.

In the semifinals and Finals the positions will be picked as in the monthly finals:

• Map: Team "left" Picks starting position
  
• Map: Team "right" Picks starting position
  
• Map: Team "left" Picks starting position

Between two maps both teams have 5 minutes time to pepare. If one team isn't ready after 5 minutes the battle starts without the missing players and the team will be punished with 1 penaltypoint for each missing player. Please take screenshots to prove when the last map was finished and the when 5 minutes passed.

Results
A battle is won if:

• All enemy vehicles are destroyed within the timelimit
  
• The enemy base is captured within the timelimit

Draw
If the match ends draw, both teams are disqualified!

Prize
Qualifiers:

• 1st 120,000 for the team
  
• 2nd 60,000 for the team
  
• 3rd 30,000 for the team
  
• 4th 15,000 for the team

Finals:

• 1st 240,000 for the team
  
• 2nd 120,000 for the team
  
• 3rd 60,000 for the team
  
• 4th 30,000 for the team

After winning gold, you have to send us a list of which players to receive it via support ticket.



It was in league info.

http://www.esl.eu/eu...p_1/leagueinfo/
Edited by Eraser_SK, 05 June 2012 - 01:20 PM.

Eraser_SK, on 05 June 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

So? There was also a link to full rules.
Full rules are supposed to contain all additional info that was not placed in league info. That's how it works in every civilised place in a world: if you comapre brief and full rules, full rules always triumph, otherwise there is no point in having full rules at all.
And there was an additional information added by mistake of admins, what is a whole reason for a problem.
What's even more important, in any case with contradicting rules being officially announced, all problems should be solved to the benefit of participants, not organisers, but hey, that's maybe too high standard to require from ESL admins.


I understand, that you are happy with free pass to finals of the tournament, but try to think about the general comunity benefits (I wouldn't even mention fair play and other stuff because it's rather unpopular to play fair in ESL) not your particular interest in one game, ok?


Unless you are ok if you will be the next one disqualified because someone posted wrong rules on the ESL page. Or because admins invented a rule and forgot to write it for everyone to see.

Gorzki, on 05 June 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

some facts...


website of ESL is very confused...
BUT...rules for this session was same for all...



it´s very important look for this picture...

http://www.stooorage.com/show/1324/6329140_esl.jpg

Quote

Quote

It´s very sad, that people from 1Pad didn´t read all rules...later they must blame BIA and ESL admins, It´s only your fail...

Gorzki, on 05 June 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

no comment


I believe in the correctness of the decision…


I think that will be 3 Q. tournaments and TT XL team is very good...so let´s fight in next tournament...GL
Edited by TBlackbird, 05 June 2012 - 01:52 PM.

Problem was :

- full rules say draw=both teams out, but an ingame draw with 8+ tier points is NOT a draw
- league info says draw=both teams out. Period. That would include all ingame draws.

Now there cant really be a loser considering this mistake in the rules. There can only be a lucky winner with 8+ points difference (so even the better team regarding the result), while otherwise both teams are disqualified anyways ... giving the next match opponent a lucky default win. No one is really harmed by this, imo.
Nevertheless, rules should be proof read by more than one admin to prevent these problems

I think that you could ask ESL to replay the match before you started to "f*ck" them and suspect them of conspiracy. They could satisfy you. Now I dont give you many chances for rematch.
Edited by paramel, 05 June 2012 - 02:23 PM.

TBlackbird, on 05 June 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

The point is not if they were the same for all, the problem is, that they were different rules written as rules that should apply and different rules were applied.

Quote

Absolutely not.
look at this screenshot made AFTER the game and AFTER the decision was made:
http://szerszak.repu....pl/wot/esl.jpg

You may see that the wrong rule is still written there. And it was corrected only after it was pointed out. So sorry mate, the problem went from the fact that 1PAD guys did read all the rules. And you read only a simplified version, which was correct, but it's not a fault of a reader that he read all rules, wrong rules among them.


The info on site was wrong at the moment the game was played. You can't argue about that.
It is ESL admins fault that info was wrong.
It is not any teams fault if they played according to the rules that were announce instead of the rules that were supposed to be.

You can't argue with any of the points above, because there's not a hint of doubt about them.
And problem with ESL's not proofreading their site is, that teams that have admin in their clan, know rules that were supposed to be.
I know this, cause I played in one team with ESL admin before.That's the nly reason I mentioned BIA's admin involved into this.



Also it's different thing to make an addition to the rules that you may check before the game, and something different to change a rule post factum, after the match and make a decision based on that rule. Lex retro non agis, so clearing the mess on the site after decision was made doesn't change the fact, the rules were still dispalyed wrong.

There was such situation with Battle League organised by Wargaming - there was a decision that in case of missing players max tier limit is reduced by one, but the admin for junior league wrote that in such case there is no penalty. Later they were trying to judge all games played with full point limit declared as walkovers.
In that days the community reacted properly and Wargaming realised that penalising teams for not playing according to the rule introduced or pressented after the match was played is stupid.

Quote

You obviously miss the point, because all the time you ignore the main point of the situation:

During and after the battle Full rules of the tournament (so the last, most important instance) on the ESL site were different then the rules that were used to judge the match.

you never addressed that. You point out that brief rules were different - so what? You flame that TT XL are to blame for not reading the rules, while it's reading all the rules that caused problem.

It's not about you, you are not a side in it, you are a beneficiary of the admins fuckup so you are trying to stick to it, it's despicable maybe, but understandable.
But your arguments are simply invalid, sorry.

Schartak said:

You are wrong, because people play according to the rules they read.
If the rules were written correctly the game wouldn't ended in a draw, because both teams would try to win instead of being contended with having points advantage
So every team that read full rules were in danger of making a wrong decision in situation like that - we lead enough to win anyway, so there is no point to risk it. mistake.And that misguidance was caused by ESL mistake, not players.

The fair play solution would be to replay this match, especially since the timeframe allows that.

paramel, on 05 June 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

But I'm not the TT XL also. They asked for replaying match and got refused.
For me it's even better to play against you then against them.

I pointed out their mistakes because I'm that kind of guy that hates when judges made mistakes and I've seen that too many times, I organised some events in my life and I konw how it was always important for me that my mistakes don't harm participants.
I also never accused them of conspiracy, I even pointed out that this is a sad coincidence. I was only annoyed with closing match commentary after making wrong decision, which is arrogance which I hate in officials of any kind.
I didn't even trashed them too much, all I write is matter-of-factly, because they didn't yet answer here.
The only thing I see is BIA trying desperately to cling to the ruling that allows them to free pass forward. You are so afraid of TT XL, that fair play, decency or simple "what if next time this will happen to me" doesn't matter against that one decision?

to Gorzki: I meant the szerszak post on ESL page:

Quote

Afraid? lol. Yes, cause we are afraid of greys even in ESL tournament we come to Italy over and over again... You write really well but this was funny.
Edited by paramel, 05 June 2012 - 02:56 PM.

This is exactly why people don't like ESL and especially Admins of it.

You are clicking minuses to anything what BiA members write? Really mature

voitek, on 05 June 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

this is why everybody like orig. WOT tournaments....like Drill, Ural Steel, etc. :-)
this ESL system isn´t good...but....rules are rules
Edited by TBlackbird, 05 June 2012 - 03:03 PM.

Hello players,

as soon as we saw the mistake, it was fixed in a few secons. It seems like you saw the differences in the rules, too. Instead of taking a screenshot and just picking what is more comfortable for you, you could of reported the mistake or maybe just ask which rule is now correct.
In a max tier 90 battle there is no need to end a battle with a draw. Even if the enemy team camps like hell it is still easy for an average of 12 tanks to win the fight. If it ends draw, it means both teams camped. Therefore the rule was picked that in such a case both are out so the event doesn't get such a big delay. There are still 3 more qualifiers to go where you can qualify for the finals and also win gold.

We are sorry for the troubles, but like I said, nothing is lost yet ;)

Edit: In my opinion (of course this is only my opinion), if I would see that the draw rule has it's own point, but somewhere is something written about draws, too, I would think that the extra point is correct. Anyway the rules are long (that's why I add a summary of rules to outline the most important things) and I'm only a human, too, that can do mistakes.

Edit 2: Any admin that could be involved in to a match is not allowed to do anything. All decisions were done by me.

Quote

Well according to your screenshots, it was written in the leaguinfos and in the complete rules as an own point that both teams are disqualified if a match ends draw, but only in complete rules the was an addittional sentence mixed in between a different point. So decision was done according to the rules. There is no need to discuss this anymore. We can not have a different draw rule for the first qualifer then for the remaining qualifiers. We will stick to this rule for the hole company cup.
Edited by aimbulance_gb, 05 June 2012 - 03:14 PM.

TBlackbird, on 05 June 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

You still don't get it? Really?
We were playing according to the rules for f sake! Rules were changed TODAY, after the match!

Hello guys, at the first of all. Yes I am a member of BiA clan and in the same moment I am an ESL Admin. Anyway, think what do you want, but I don't have permissions for editing rules -> I just can't do this this is up to our "head" sne.

Second, read this " We make every effort to ensure the rules are complete and up to date but this may not always be the case. You should also check the Rules & Information and News for additions, exceptions and modifications that may apply. All players must meet the requirements listed in the Rules & Information at the time the match is scheduled to begin. " and now, click on the Rules & Information - there you can see, that draw = disq for both teams ;) And there the rule wasn't changed.

------> rules here: http://www.esl.eu/eu...up_1/leagueinfo was never changed - from the announce of Company cups till now, they was not changed there Only, where the mistake was...was in Complete rules... anyway, there is  "You should also check the Rules & Information and News for additions, exceptions and modifications that may apply."
You need to use rules, which are here http://www.esl.eu/eu...p_1/leagueinfo/ and I don't want to say it again, but I must... They was never changed on this page

Anyway, guys, you can try your luck in next qualifier cup. You still have time
Edited by DJKiller666, 05 June 2012 - 03:12 PM.

aimbulance_gb, on 05 June 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Wow, so give us our time that we wasted  waiting for all the matches and playing the tournament. But then we lost it because of you, not because the opponent was better than us
Edited by voitek, 05 June 2012 - 03:11 PM.

voitek, on 05 June 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

today?? this is from start...i think...or not?

voitek, on 05 June 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

I'm sorry about that, but you lost because of draw in your match, that's all