how would you engage a King Tiger?
hrothgarviking
01 Jul 2012
Exocet6951, on 01 July 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:
When in doubt, call air support.
Fighter-bombers with AT rockets and small bombs > tanks
The 88mm AA guns could try to shoot at the fighters, but it would be about as effective as trying to use a bazooka to hunt ducks: the duck is vaporized if you hit, but chances are you won't every hit one.
So that's my plan. Sit the Shermans out of combat, have infantry scout the tanks and guns and relay their movements. Then have artillery(anything would do) barrage the living hell out of the 88's (just in case), then have the fighters shove rockets up the KTs' bums, and drop bombs on anything else that moves.
Then loot the fuel.
Fighter-bombers with AT rockets and small bombs > tanks
The 88mm AA guns could try to shoot at the fighters, but it would be about as effective as trying to use a bazooka to hunt ducks: the duck is vaporized if you hit, but chances are you won't every hit one.
So that's my plan. Sit the Shermans out of combat, have infantry scout the tanks and guns and relay their movements. Then have artillery(anything would do) barrage the living hell out of the 88's (just in case), then have the fighters shove rockets up the KTs' bums, and drop bombs on anything else that moves.
Then loot the fuel.
Maybe waiting the airfore is a good choise, but after reading this, i dont think so. (Also: if you wait for support, the enemy might have reinforstments as well, or maybe able to fall back, if their situation is hopeless) http://operationbarb...thbusters4.html
And something about 88s: http://operationbarb...rs/88-Flak.html
Also I have a question: What would you do if you are face this force as the germans?
Edited by hrothgarviking, 04 July 2012 - 11:24 AM.
Sean473
02 Jul 2012
RD11, on 01 July 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:
run run run only option!
On first thought, that what I would have done...
However, thinking a bit my stratergy would be this... I'd first locate the 88 position and bomb the hell out of them using artillery... Call in a few rocket and bomb strikes and have an arty barrage on their dug in tiger IIs.... Then sneak up to their flanks under the barrage and take them out with the M4s with the 76mms taking cover behind the M4s with the 75mms..
coldnexusfrontline
03 Jul 2012
Sean473, on 02 July 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:
On first thought, that what I would have done...
However, thinking a bit my stratergy would be this... I'd first locate the 88 position and bomb the hell out of them using artillery... Call in a few rocket and bomb strikes and have an arty barrage on their dug in tiger IIs.... Then sneak up to their flanks under the barrage and take them out with the M4s with the 76mms taking cover behind the M4s with the 75mms..
However, thinking a bit my stratergy would be this... I'd first locate the 88 position and bomb the hell out of them using artillery... Call in a few rocket and bomb strikes and have an arty barrage on their dug in tiger IIs.... Then sneak up to their flanks under the barrage and take them out with the M4s with the 76mms taking cover behind the M4s with the 75mms..
Lito
03 Jul 2012
Avre for support? Then I would bomb them out of their positions and wait with the shermans in ambush, when they pass us I would shell their rears.
Doubt the Germans would just sit there while I bomb them with, what, 240mm spigot rounds. :D
Probably use those satchels too, I would mostly rig the whole road where they would go as the KT has really weak belly armour. Leave the E8 shermans near the frontal par of our ambush, the stubby shermans near the back. Would be nice to blow up some house near the road to stop their advance or even blow it up on one of the King Tigers.
Edited by Lito, 03 July 2012 - 09:32 AM.
Doubt the Germans would just sit there while I bomb them with, what, 240mm spigot rounds. :D
Probably use those satchels too, I would mostly rig the whole road where they would go as the KT has really weak belly armour. Leave the E8 shermans near the frontal par of our ambush, the stubby shermans near the back. Would be nice to blow up some house near the road to stop their advance or even blow it up on one of the King Tigers.
Edited by Lito, 03 July 2012 - 09:32 AM.
Tigger3
03 Jul 2012
coldnexusfrontline, on 03 July 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:
you dont have any bombs or rockets or artillary,read OP please.
Sherman 75mm have a very effective indirect fire mode and were used quite often in the role from 1943 onwards. So in effect you have got some artillery, 40 guns worth.
Quote
The use of the 75mm gun as an indirect fire weapon originated in Italy with the 8th (New Brunswick) Hussars; by late 1944 the practice was not uncommon, and Shermans in the Nijmegen Salient were often tasked to provide fire in this manner.McNorgan, The Gallant Hussars: A History of the 1st Hussars Regiment 1856-2004, p.194
SkyZZo
03 Jul 2012
I'm sorry...but your story is just to relative...
You should have provided a raw map for us....
You say that "have the advantage in terrain becuase it is muddy and full of cover, and full of craters" wich makes any tank movement really hard...
It's quite hard to make a plan(a good plan) without knowing eneything about the terrain
For instance...an obvious mesure is to order your AT infantry to ocuppy those trenches...but how close are they to the german defence line.....can they engage from there ?
Olso....another obvious move is to order your Firefly's and a couple of normal shermans(wich should focus on the 88's with their machinguns and HE round) to atempt a flanking manouver...but for what you are telling me...that's impossible..
Please make a map next time because this kind of subjects are verry verry interesting
+1
You should have provided a raw map for us....
You say that "have the advantage in terrain becuase it is muddy and full of cover, and full of craters" wich makes any tank movement really hard...
It's quite hard to make a plan(a good plan) without knowing eneything about the terrain
For instance...an obvious mesure is to order your AT infantry to ocuppy those trenches...but how close are they to the german defence line.....can they engage from there ?
Olso....another obvious move is to order your Firefly's and a couple of normal shermans(wich should focus on the 88's with their machinguns and HE round) to atempt a flanking manouver...but for what you are telling me...that's impossible..
Please make a map next time because this kind of subjects are verry verry interesting
+1
coldnexusfrontline
03 Jul 2012
If you would like a full detail plan then I will do another one,this is.just the start:)
SgVolf
03 Jul 2012
I wouldn't attack without air support.
It is a perfect job for B-26 bombers.
The dug in King Tiger tanks can not be harmed by Shermanns because the weakspots are covered and the shots will bounce off the turret.
But because are dug in perfect targets to bombers or field artilerry.
So as the 88 mm AT guns.
It is a perfect job for B-26 bombers.
The dug in King Tiger tanks can not be harmed by Shermanns because the weakspots are covered and the shots will bounce off the turret.
But because are dug in perfect targets to bombers or field artilerry.
So as the 88 mm AT guns.
SkyZZo
03 Jul 2012
SgVolf, on 03 July 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:
I wouldn't attack without air support.
It is a perfect job for B-26 bombers.
So as the 88 mm AT guns.
It is a perfect job for B-26 bombers.
So as the 88 mm AT guns.
German 88mm had an AT role but their main role was AA so i don't know how effective an airstrike would be.
Denis333
04 Jul 2012
1 88mm shell = 1 Sherman kill
The accuracy of the King Tiger's gun is excelent, because it is a long barrel gun!
The M4s will be destroyed by the longbarrel 88mm gun of the King Tigers from 2 km away, the positioned 88s will also help the King Tigers. Check this : http://www.youtube.c...?v=bVPLdRReUZ8.
The Shermans won't even enter the PzIVs' gun range.
The accuracy of the King Tiger's gun is excelent, because it is a long barrel gun!
The M4s will be destroyed by the longbarrel 88mm gun of the King Tigers from 2 km away, the positioned 88s will also help the King Tigers. Check this : http://www.youtube.c...?v=bVPLdRReUZ8.
The Shermans won't even enter the PzIVs' gun range.
Tigger3
04 Jul 2012
SkyZZo, on 03 July 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:
German 88mm had an AT role but their main role was AA so i don't know how effective an airstrike would be.
Well the OP has not mentioned whether they are Flak or Pak 88mm so we have no idea what type they are. Flak 88 were medium to high level AA.
Denis333, on 04 July 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:
1 88mm shell = 1 Sherman kill
The accuracy of the King Tiger's gun is excelent, because it is a long barrel gun!
The M4s will be destroyed by the longbarrel 88mm gun of the King Tigers from 2 km away, the positioned 88s will also help the King Tigers. Check this : http://www.youtube.c...?v=bVPLdRReUZ8.
The Shermans won't even enter the PzIVs' gun range.
The accuracy of the King Tiger's gun is excelent, because it is a long barrel gun!
The M4s will be destroyed by the longbarrel 88mm gun of the King Tigers from 2 km away, the positioned 88s will also help the King Tigers. Check this : http://www.youtube.c...?v=bVPLdRReUZ8.
The Shermans won't even enter the PzIVs' gun range.
The 88mm were never 1 shot 1 kill at any point in the war. They had plenty of misses and even surprising bounces, one 88mm gun commander in 1940 stated he fired 3 rounds at a British tank (Somme 1940 the British unit only had Cruisers and Lights) with one bouncing off (Tankmen 'Kershaw').
They were good and accurate but not like many seem to think.
Chillius
04 Jul 2012
Have a non-engaging force at their face (out of their guns reach thought). Raid their supply line with a mobile unit for a week and set up ambush positions on their fall-back route. They will pull-out eventually with nice ambushes on the way and a force now in their back (the non-engaging force that used to be in their face).
Roran_Hawkins
05 Jul 2012
Indirect fire varrage with the Sherman's HE shells at dawn, afternoon and randomly during the day and night, from another firing position every single time.
Would keep the Germans awake for hours, break equipment, cause chaos and disorder, kill men, destroy modules, and waste food.
Would keep the Germans awake for hours, break equipment, cause chaos and disorder, kill men, destroy modules, and waste food.
CritticalError
10 Jul 2012
Try to surround them but stay out of sight. Turn off motors.
A Tiger 2 needs fuel. Much fuel. If the motor is out, the turret can't rotate, don't think that rotating the turret of there tanks by hand is possible. You can't penetrate the tanks, but you surely can stop support trucks. If Tiger 2 run out of fuel attack and stay out of the small areas they can cover with the guns. If they turn of the motors to consere fuel...do the same. They will probably need to much time to get the tank running. If the three monsters are taken down, rest should be easy.
A Tiger 2 needs fuel. Much fuel. If the motor is out, the turret can't rotate, don't think that rotating the turret of there tanks by hand is possible. You can't penetrate the tanks, but you surely can stop support trucks. If Tiger 2 run out of fuel attack and stay out of the small areas they can cover with the guns. If they turn of the motors to consere fuel...do the same. They will probably need to much time to get the tank running. If the three monsters are taken down, rest should be easy.
SkyZZo
10 Jul 2012
it's just funny how you all presume that the germans would just stay there in the open and wait their imminent deaths....
They would almost certainly would have forward observers wich would report each and every movement that you make
They would almost certainly would have forward observers wich would report each and every movement that you make
FoeHamster419
11 Jul 2012
coldnexusfrontline, on 28 June 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:
READ THIS!
Lets say you are a commander of a tank battalion of shermans.
You have no air cover,or TDs to back you up..you do however have Shermans with the 76m1a1 which can pierce the KTs side armour,but its a ratio of 5-1 shermans to shermans w/76.
You have 40shermans and 8 w/76.
You are facing three Kingtigers,they are dug in and cant move,there are also 5 panzer4s and a number of 88s positioned.(around 8-10).
They also do not have any infantry.
To help you have a enginer company with 2 Churchill Avres. and sappers,with statchel charges and bazookas.
How would you successfully engage them?
Its not impossaible,you have infantry and the spigpot
you have the advantage in terrian becuase it is muddy and full of cover, and full of craters,the enemy is dug in and are well protected however there are trenches left over from a previous battle,letting your infantry get precious cover.
You dont have any arty support,your goin to have to do this on your own.
Or air support,or rockets whatever,you need to engage the enemy with your own forces.
Lets say you are a commander of a tank battalion of shermans.
You have no air cover,or TDs to back you up..you do however have Shermans with the 76m1a1 which can pierce the KTs side armour,but its a ratio of 5-1 shermans to shermans w/76.
You have 40shermans and 8 w/76.
You are facing three Kingtigers,they are dug in and cant move,there are also 5 panzer4s and a number of 88s positioned.(around 8-10).
They also do not have any infantry.
To help you have a enginer company with 2 Churchill Avres. and sappers,with statchel charges and bazookas.
How would you successfully engage them?
Its not impossaible,you have infantry and the spigpot
you have the advantage in terrian becuase it is muddy and full of cover, and full of craters,the enemy is dug in and are well protected however there are trenches left over from a previous battle,letting your infantry get precious cover.
You dont have any arty support,your goin to have to do this on your own.
Or air support,or rockets whatever,you need to engage the enemy with your own forces.
Go home.
On a more serious note.. are we supposed top research the average time it takes for these tanks to reload, how much ground is there to cover, what's the weather like, how tired/motivated are the infantry, why do the other guys have no infantry?
I always found these topics highly ridiculous lol.. Can someone enlighten me why they seem so popular?
-E- If the 88s are anything like the ones in CoH, then you have lost =p
Edited by FoeHamster419, 11 July 2012 - 09:23 AM.
friedliebend
17 Jul 2012
I have Shermans so I am an US Commander.
I wait until I have air cover and beg until the mighty US Air Fleer helps me.
Or I wait until I have the numbers. I dont attack until I have a 10:1 superiority.
I wait until I have air cover and beg until the mighty US Air Fleer helps me.
Or I wait until I have the numbers. I dont attack until I have a 10:1 superiority.
Vivisector
18 Jul 2012
Considering lack of supporting German infantry? I'd use my own soldiers with shermans acting as a fire support, changing positions after each shot. If there would be such option, I'd wait untill it's dark, to get even greater advantage. Should my infantry have any mortars, I'd position them in covered position and constantly harass any enemy with sporadic fire, just to keep them under constant psychical pressure and deny them free observation of the field. After nightfall, I'm continue firing mortars at positions detected during the day with more intensity, to keep tank and 88 gun crews pinned, and advance with infantry maybe even supported by some of sherman crewmen just to get as big numerical superiority as possible, from there it's a cakewalk- as soon as assault teams with flamethrowers and demo charges get close enough, Germans lacking anti-infantry weapons (apart from few MP40s, Kar98k, Lugers) are done for.
coldnexusfrontline
18 Jul 2012
Vivisector, on 18 July 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:
Considering lack of supporting German infantry? I'd use my own soldiers with shermans acting as a fire support, changing positions after each shot. If there would be such option, I'd wait untill it's dark, to get even greater advantage. Should my infantry have any mortars, I'd position them in covered position and constantly harass any enemy with sporadic fire, just to keep them under constant psychical pressure and deny them free observation of the field. After nightfall, I'm continue firing mortars at positions detected during the day with more intensity, to keep tank and 88 gun crews pinned, and advance with infantry maybe even supported by some of sherman crewmen just to get as big numerical superiority as possible, from there it's a cakewalk- as soon as assault teams with flamethrowers and demo charges get close enough, Germans lacking anti-infantry weapons (apart from few MP40s, Kar98k, Lugers) are done for.
