Freudian tactics - The obsession with moun...
Xander77
02 Aug 2012
Okay this one has always confused me and I figure that as I've started posting here, I'd challenge the concept.
Hill shaped tank magnets...
Why is it that if there's a hill then every bright spark in existence thinks it's the whole team's first priority to occupy it no matter what the cost?
I mean sure there's tactical advantages to elevation, that much is simple tactics but to commit half your forces (usually more) into a meat grinder to grab a piece of high ground is sheer insanity. For a start it's simple logic that you can own the highest vantage point in the whole of existence but it won't do you any good if you're dead!
So please, aside from obsession with mounds, what is the attraction? Is there some new camp location on Malinkova? Does Mines give you a nuke if you grab the hill?
I've seen more wins produced by teams annihilating the daft tankers who go for these hills than I have seen those who have taken the hill then go on to win and yet people still keep doing it.
Hill shaped tank magnets...
Why is it that if there's a hill then every bright spark in existence thinks it's the whole team's first priority to occupy it no matter what the cost?
I mean sure there's tactical advantages to elevation, that much is simple tactics but to commit half your forces (usually more) into a meat grinder to grab a piece of high ground is sheer insanity. For a start it's simple logic that you can own the highest vantage point in the whole of existence but it won't do you any good if you're dead!
So please, aside from obsession with mounds, what is the attraction? Is there some new camp location on Malinkova? Does Mines give you a nuke if you grab the hill?
I've seen more wins produced by teams annihilating the daft tankers who go for these hills than I have seen those who have taken the hill then go on to win and yet people still keep doing it.
ivica70
02 Aug 2012
Ikarases
02 Aug 2012
Xander77, on 02 August 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:
Okay this one has always confused me and I figure that as I've started posting here, I'd challenge the concept.
Hill shaped tank magnets...
Why is it that if there's a hill then every bright spark in existence thinks it's the whole team's first priority to occupy it no matter what the cost?
I mean sure there's tactical advantages to elevation, that much is simple tactics but to commit half your forces (usually more) into a meat grinder to grab a piece of high ground is sheer insanity. For a start it's simple logic that you can own the highest vantage point in the whole of existence but it won't do you any good if you're dead!
So please, aside from obsession with mounds, what is the attraction? Is there some new camp location on Malinkova? Does Mines give you a nuke if you grab the hill?
I've seen more wins produced by teams annihilating the daft tankers who go for these hills than I have seen those who have taken the hill then go on to win and yet people still keep doing it.
Hill shaped tank magnets...
Why is it that if there's a hill then every bright spark in existence thinks it's the whole team's first priority to occupy it no matter what the cost?
I mean sure there's tactical advantages to elevation, that much is simple tactics but to commit half your forces (usually more) into a meat grinder to grab a piece of high ground is sheer insanity. For a start it's simple logic that you can own the highest vantage point in the whole of existence but it won't do you any good if you're dead!
So please, aside from obsession with mounds, what is the attraction? Is there some new camp location on Malinkova? Does Mines give you a nuke if you grab the hill?
I've seen more wins produced by teams annihilating the daft tankers who go for these hills than I have seen those who have taken the hill then go on to win and yet people still keep doing it.
Mines: Do you know any better place for lights and meds to be? Wasting their speed in a "trench" fight? Hevs don´t go on the hill at all and if they do, it´s ussually secured...
i486DX
02 Aug 2012
It is only logical to assume that a hill is a tactical advantage, but yes, many times people take it a bit too serious.
Xander77
02 Aug 2012
Ikarases, on 02 August 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:
Mines: Do you know any better place for lights and meds to be? Wasting their speed in a "trench" fight? Hevs don´t go on the hill at all and if they do, it´s ussually secured...
The island can be rushed, the village provides flanking opportunities and most of the time the lighter tanks get killed going for the hill by a heavy simply sitting at the bottom of the opposite side!
Junah
02 Aug 2012
People like hills because it gives them a big field of fire, they can see and shoot everywhere. What they tend to forget is that this also means everyone can see and shoot them.
Holding high ground often gives an advantage, but its a bit more complex than just driving to the top and standing there.
Holding high ground often gives an advantage, but its a bit more complex than just driving to the top and standing there.
Zalmoxis91
02 Aug 2012
2 words: Gun Depression.
Staying on top of the hill ensures that you have an advantage. Why?
Because basically, going uphill is hell for 99% of the tanks, so you get less reaction time and a slower tank response.
Gun depression is very important too since a lot of tanks have quite bad gun depression, like all russian tanks. So, going uphill facing a target that's at the top, it's very unlikely to actually get it in your circle before you get into his. I have killed 2 JgTigers with my T-150 simply because I waited at top of the hill and shot their tracks when they were in a good position for me ( meaning I could hit them but they couldn't aim at me).
The other advantage is a bit double edged. It's called sky lining and it means that you get to see a wider view of the map, but the you can be seen from more points as well. But, in most cases, if you know how to play this, it is to your advantage.
Staying on top of the hill ensures that you have an advantage. Why?
Because basically, going uphill is hell for 99% of the tanks, so you get less reaction time and a slower tank response.
Gun depression is very important too since a lot of tanks have quite bad gun depression, like all russian tanks. So, going uphill facing a target that's at the top, it's very unlikely to actually get it in your circle before you get into his. I have killed 2 JgTigers with my T-150 simply because I waited at top of the hill and shot their tracks when they were in a good position for me ( meaning I could hit them but they couldn't aim at me).
The other advantage is a bit double edged. It's called sky lining and it means that you get to see a wider view of the map, but the you can be seen from more points as well. But, in most cases, if you know how to play this, it is to your advantage.
Ikarases
02 Aug 2012
Xander77, on 02 August 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:
Well it would be a place for them to go but then who's flanking? The heavies?
The island can be rushed, the village provides flanking opportunities and most of the time the lighter tanks get killed going for the hill by a heavy simply sitting at the bottom of the opposite side!
The island can be rushed, the village provides flanking opportunities and most of the time the lighter tanks get killed going for the hill by a heavy simply sitting at the bottom of the opposite side!
Flanking on Mines? There are two ways, both spammed by heavies... There is NO WAY to flank or just break trhough and do some havoc to arties on the other side...
Most of the HTs are sitting ducks, ensuring that no tank gets into the village and if does, it doesn´t serve a good purpose (maximally spotting for the arty but the range behind the hill is ussualy awful) so village doesn´t make too much of a sense...
Island is ussualy taken by the upper spawn team, you´d need a hell of a med to kick the enemy out of there...
Sitting heavy case: The view range isn´t that big to just shot the same tank 2 times (if you don´t detrack him), and the rest of the lights, meds and fast TDs are happily going up...
kpank
02 Aug 2012
Someone has to spot and stop the enemy spotters so that the campers can maintain their survival rate.
Exocet6951
02 Aug 2012
I don't know who is neg repping him, because he's right.
In one in two battles, some guy will tell us to rush the hill, even if there is no hill at all, but a series of small slopes.
I once saw someone, all in seriousness, that told us to rush the hill on Ruinberg. We all asked where the hell was was that hill he was going on about, and he meant going to the village that's slightly more elevated than the rest of the city.
Sometimes, being on a hill is not an advantage, especially when you don't have gun depression, and the hill lacks arty cover, so everyone can see you.
In one in two battles, some guy will tell us to rush the hill, even if there is no hill at all, but a series of small slopes.
I once saw someone, all in seriousness, that told us to rush the hill on Ruinberg. We all asked where the hell was was that hill he was going on about, and he meant going to the village that's slightly more elevated than the rest of the city.
Sometimes, being on a hill is not an advantage, especially when you don't have gun depression, and the hill lacks arty cover, so everyone can see you.
Xander77
03 Aug 2012
Ikarases, on 02 August 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:
Flanking on Mines? There are two ways, both spammed by heavies... There is NO WAY to flank or just break trhough and do some havoc to arties on the other side...
Most of the HTs are sitting ducks, ensuring that no tank gets into the village and if does, it doesn´t serve a good purpose (maximally spotting for the arty but the range behind the hill is ussualy awful) so village doesn´t make too much of a sense...
Island is ussualy taken by the upper spawn team, you´d need a hell of a med to kick the enemy out of there...
Sitting heavy case: The view range isn´t that big to just shot the same tank 2 times (if you don´t detrack him), and the rest of the lights, meds and fast TDs are happily going up...
Most of the HTs are sitting ducks, ensuring that no tank gets into the village and if does, it doesn´t serve a good purpose (maximally spotting for the arty but the range behind the hill is ussualy awful) so village doesn´t make too much of a sense...
Island is ussualy taken by the upper spawn team, you´d need a hell of a med to kick the enemy out of there...
Sitting heavy case: The view range isn´t that big to just shot the same tank 2 times (if you don´t detrack him), and the rest of the lights, meds and fast TDs are happily going up...
Xander77
03 Aug 2012
Junah, on 02 August 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:
People like hills because it gives them a big field of fire, they can see and shoot everywhere. What they tend to forget is that this also means everyone can see and shoot them.
Holding high ground often gives an advantage, but its a bit more complex than just driving to the top and standing there.
Holding high ground often gives an advantage, but its a bit more complex than just driving to the top and standing there.
Zalmoxis91, on 02 August 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:
2 words: Gun Depression.
Staying on top of the hill ensures that you have an advantage. Why?
Because basically, going uphill is hell for 99% of the tanks, so you get less reaction time and a slower tank response.
Gun depression is very important too since a lot of tanks have quite bad gun depression, like all russian tanks. So, going uphill facing a target that's at the top, it's very unlikely to actually get it in your circle before you get into his. I have killed 2 JgTigers with my T-150 simply because I waited at top of the hill and shot their tracks when they were in a good position for me ( meaning I could hit them but they couldn't aim at me).
The other advantage is a bit double edged. It's called sky lining and it means that you get to see a wider view of the map, but the you can be seen from more points as well. But, in most cases, if you know how to play this, it is to your advantage.
Staying on top of the hill ensures that you have an advantage. Why?
Because basically, going uphill is hell for 99% of the tanks, so you get less reaction time and a slower tank response.
Gun depression is very important too since a lot of tanks have quite bad gun depression, like all russian tanks. So, going uphill facing a target that's at the top, it's very unlikely to actually get it in your circle before you get into his. I have killed 2 JgTigers with my T-150 simply because I waited at top of the hill and shot their tracks when they were in a good position for me ( meaning I could hit them but they couldn't aim at me).
The other advantage is a bit double edged. It's called sky lining and it means that you get to see a wider view of the map, but the you can be seen from more points as well. But, in most cases, if you know how to play this, it is to your advantage.
It just baffles me how people lead large groups of tanks towards the hill in a desperate attempt to grab it first only to get annihilation on the way up and either fail to acquire the hill or be so battered when they do that they have no effect anyway from their position of advantage. Personally (having played mostly TDs, Heavies and Mediums) I tend to find that getting into a defensible position near a bottleneck is much more effective than poking out on a hill top. Seems like a gloryhound tactic to me but then that seems to be most of the tactics employed in random matches.
Ikarases
03 Aug 2012
Xander77, on 03 August 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:
I don't mean simply "flanking" to get the arty. By flanking I mean getting around the sides and rear of enemy tanks where the armour is weaker. Artillery is a secondary aim for me.
On mines there is NO WAY to get around them without being spotted or the area is already cleared...
belzebut
03 Aug 2012
Hills give you strategic superiority. Take Mines for exemple, whoever gets the hill wins in 90 % of battles. You can scout better, you can shoot more targets and you can relocate faster.
Xander77
03 Aug 2012
Take Himmelsdorf on encounter for an example.
"Take the hill" they always cry and unless you overwhelm the enemy it's a very hard place to take. Now why is the hill important? To STOP you getting flanked. So just hold the slopes.
I just had a game where a quarter of my side decided to push and mounted the hill....and then died. It ended up with a large number of their tanks taking the hill and flanking us. However, as I used my brain, I counter flanked down the 8s and finished off lots of well worn tanks and the arty. We won.
Lesson 1. There is no advantage so great that you should die getting it. A live tank in a bad position is far superior to a dead tank in the perfect spot....unless you've just managed to wedge yourself and now they can't get past you...but that's more funny than tactical most times
"Take the hill" they always cry and unless you overwhelm the enemy it's a very hard place to take. Now why is the hill important? To STOP you getting flanked. So just hold the slopes.
I just had a game where a quarter of my side decided to push and mounted the hill....and then died. It ended up with a large number of their tanks taking the hill and flanking us. However, as I used my brain, I counter flanked down the 8s and finished off lots of well worn tanks and the arty. We won.
Lesson 1. There is no advantage so great that you should die getting it. A live tank in a bad position is far superior to a dead tank in the perfect spot....unless you've just managed to wedge yourself and now they can't get past you...but that's more funny than tactical most times
arbenowskee
03 Aug 2012
Well about dead tank in perfect spot.... I've seen tactics where defence or Erlenberg in encounter was won because Mouse driver parked himself sideways on north bride. Assaulters couldn't push the wreck out the way in time hahaha. (going around resulted in deaths) :P
Edited by arbenowskee, 03 August 2012 - 02:11 PM.
Edited by arbenowskee, 03 August 2012 - 02:11 PM.
Zalmoxis91
03 Aug 2012
Xander77, on 03 August 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:
If only more people saw that. Mind you I get the feeling that most of the people who do this kind of over simplistic tactic probably don't post here.
True but it's also true that tanks have a lot more variables than simply how well they can use a hill. I've had great fun in my T29 playing a simple defensive role. Make it as hard as possible to shoot anything but the front of the turret and hope they don't realise.
It just baffles me how people lead large groups of tanks towards the hill in a desperate attempt to grab it first only to get annihilation on the way up and either fail to acquire the hill or be so battered when they do that they have no effect anyway from their position of advantage. Personally (having played mostly TDs, Heavies and Mediums) I tend to find that getting into a defensible position near a bottleneck is much more effective than poking out on a hill top. Seems like a gloryhound tactic to me but then that seems to be most of the tactics employed in random matches.
True but it's also true that tanks have a lot more variables than simply how well they can use a hill. I've had great fun in my T29 playing a simple defensive role. Make it as hard as possible to shoot anything but the front of the turret and hope they don't realise.
It just baffles me how people lead large groups of tanks towards the hill in a desperate attempt to grab it first only to get annihilation on the way up and either fail to acquire the hill or be so battered when they do that they have no effect anyway from their position of advantage. Personally (having played mostly TDs, Heavies and Mediums) I tend to find that getting into a defensible position near a bottleneck is much more effective than poking out on a hill top. Seems like a gloryhound tactic to me but then that seems to be most of the tactics employed in random matches.
Yes, going in cover and being able to target focused areas in a map is best. That's why, for instance, if I see that I can't get on top of the hill on Mines fast enough, I take cover behind the rocks at the bottom of the hill. Best way to ensure that my allies can get there if they are lucky, and making it impossible for the enemies to advance through there as well ( unless they are smart and overwhelm me).
bart416
03 Aug 2012
Xander77, on 03 August 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:
Take Himmelsdorf on encounter for an example.
"Take the hill" they always cry and unless you overwhelm the enemy it's a very hard place to take. Now why is the hill important? To STOP you getting flanked. So just hold the slopes.
I just had a game where a quarter of my side decided to push and mounted the hill....and then died. It ended up with a large number of their tanks taking the hill and flanking us. However, as I used my brain, I counter flanked down the 8s and finished off lots of well worn tanks and the arty. We won.
Lesson 1. There is no advantage so great that you should die getting it. A live tank in a bad position is far superior to a dead tank in the perfect spot....unless you've just managed to wedge yourself and now they can't get past you...but that's more funny than tactical most times
"Take the hill" they always cry and unless you overwhelm the enemy it's a very hard place to take. Now why is the hill important? To STOP you getting flanked. So just hold the slopes.
I just had a game where a quarter of my side decided to push and mounted the hill....and then died. It ended up with a large number of their tanks taking the hill and flanking us. However, as I used my brain, I counter flanked down the 8s and finished off lots of well worn tanks and the arty. We won.
Lesson 1. There is no advantage so great that you should die getting it. A live tank in a bad position is far superior to a dead tank in the perfect spot....unless you've just managed to wedge yourself and now they can't get past you...but that's more funny than tactical most times
I always wait until all the idiots killed each other and then I go over the hill and kill their artillery. Works in most cases and it's perfectly safe.
