The lemming train paradox.
Highway_Star
03 Aug 2012
When your entire team goes down one lane, they encounter about 5 enemies. You'd think that's an easy fight, a guaranteed win for your team right? You, meanwhile, are left in the other lanes alone, praying the lemmings can push for a fast cap.
You look back at the map and scoreboards to see your entire team dead. How is it that superior numbers can get slaughtered so easily?
Even when those 5 enemy tanks aren't even top of the list, my entire lemming train is killed.
Can someone explain this mysterious phenomenon. Logically you'd think that superior numbers, and often superior tanks too, would easily push through - but often it's not true.
The Lemming Train Paradox.
Edited by Highway_Star, 03 August 2012 - 03:54 PM.
You look back at the map and scoreboards to see your entire team dead. How is it that superior numbers can get slaughtered so easily?
Even when those 5 enemy tanks aren't even top of the list, my entire lemming train is killed.
Can someone explain this mysterious phenomenon. Logically you'd think that superior numbers, and often superior tanks too, would easily push through - but often it's not true.
The Lemming Train Paradox.
Edited by Highway_Star, 03 August 2012 - 03:54 PM.
Kadorn
03 Aug 2012
People in lemming train are idiots, idiots lose even with superior numbers.
Snib
03 Aug 2012
It's like evolution. Players without skill, initiative and imagination form lemming trains. It's like bacteria agglomerating. If the enemy didn't lemming as well that means they have already evolved past lemming stage and as the superior life forms will wipe the floor with your lemmings.
Disclaimer: Aggressive lemming trains win matches, but they are rare, the usual lemming train is the "you go first and I'll wait behind you -- ok let's both wait here" type of thing.
Disclaimer: Aggressive lemming trains win matches, but they are rare, the usual lemming train is the "you go first and I'll wait behind you -- ok let's both wait here" type of thing.
aGentleTanker
03 Aug 2012
Because lemmings advance in a line and every lemming faces concentrated fire, dies, then the next lemming...
On other hand already 3rd lemming cannot fire the attackers because lemming 1+2 are blocking him.
On other hand already 3rd lemming cannot fire the attackers because lemming 1+2 are blocking him.
cimajes
03 Aug 2012
Easy answer:
Chokepoint:
The leader of the lemmings train gets shot. He takes cover, the entire lemmings will hide behind him.
The leader dies, the lemmings hides behind the dead body.
The next tank on the line dies, and so on.
They fail because the leader of the lemmings train didn't tried to push.
Chokepoint:
The leader of the lemmings train gets shot. He takes cover, the entire lemmings will hide behind him.
The leader dies, the lemmings hides behind the dead body.
The next tank on the line dies, and so on.
They fail because the leader of the lemmings train didn't tried to push.
Kuad
03 Aug 2012
Join the lemming train then. It's most likely that your team is going to lose, so why not join them and give them a better chance of pushing through instead of hopelessly trying to stop half the enemy team on your own?
Give in the to dark side, it's the only way.
Give in the to dark side, it's the only way.
bushwacker001
03 Aug 2012
I have wondered too Highway, from being on the defensive side numerous times against a train, I am in a covered position and they tend to sit in the open, not moving, showing their sides and shooting.....easy targets basically
ilhilh
03 Aug 2012
Unless they are bringing their 10 tanks to bear Vs the 5 tanks the lemming train is just a waste. Often the lemming train is just a series of 3 lemmings Vs 5 until they are all dead and the 5 defending have lost 1 or 2...
Ragnar90
03 Aug 2012
Because lemmings are cowards by nature. Cowards tend to be weaker than heroes. Thats why you often see a lemming train which on paper should break through yet it gets held back by few enemies. Its pathetic when you think about it.
Tzahal
03 Aug 2012
I've seen 10 or even 11 tank train fail really bad,but if it is well preformed and organized (let's say a good platoon) it's highly possible to win.
am462
03 Aug 2012
WoT often comes down to concentration of fire.
If the train happens to be able to bring all its guns to bear on isolated enemies, it becomes a steamroller, as the capacity to return fire is dismantled.
If it becomes stuck ie, the lead tank gets tracked, or starts peekabooing, then the situation is reversed, and the lemming train faces concentrated fire indivdually, while remaining unable to retaliate.
If you think about it, if you had 3 Lowe's engaging a lemming train, say two were on 100 hp, one was at 50%, you are actually in a better position doing less damage overall and kill the two almost dead ones, rather than doing more damage and leaving all three alive, despite what people will say about kill stealing. A nearly dead tank will hurt you jsut as much as a fully healthy one.
Lemming trains are sometimes a good tactic, but it depends heavily on what the enemy does and the map geometry.
If the train happens to be able to bring all its guns to bear on isolated enemies, it becomes a steamroller, as the capacity to return fire is dismantled.
If it becomes stuck ie, the lead tank gets tracked, or starts peekabooing, then the situation is reversed, and the lemming train faces concentrated fire indivdually, while remaining unable to retaliate.
If you think about it, if you had 3 Lowe's engaging a lemming train, say two were on 100 hp, one was at 50%, you are actually in a better position doing less damage overall and kill the two almost dead ones, rather than doing more damage and leaving all three alive, despite what people will say about kill stealing. A nearly dead tank will hurt you jsut as much as a fully healthy one.
Lemming trains are sometimes a good tactic, but it depends heavily on what the enemy does and the map geometry.
Schnurx
03 Aug 2012
Highway_Star, on 03 August 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:
Even when those 5 enemy tanks aren't even top of the list, my entire lemming train is killed.
There is no paradox. Why do lemmings all go in the same direction? To be killed. Ergo: every participant of a lemming train has a subsoncious deathwish, leading him to miss, plonk and ding, when he could do otherwise. Mission achieved, lemming dead.
Dead_Skin_Mask
03 Aug 2012
Snib, on 03 August 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:
Disclaimer: Aggressive lemming trains win matches, but they are rare, the usual lemming train is the "you go first and I'll wait behind you -- ok let's both wait here" type of thing.
Agressive lemming train = wolfpack
The difference is usually in speed. Lemmings hide when see one enemy and wait for his death, wolfpack surrounds him and eat in 10 sec.
Calebos
03 Aug 2012
As many have said the point proves itself.
If a player looks at the map and decides that the best coarse of action is to form a lemmingtrain then he is by definition a bad player, now if you put a lot of bad players together they will just be a big pile of easy targets that cant hit anything.
Sort of like when you play a tank destroyer and get "one of those" guys that usually play heavy, and start to follow you 0.5m behind and mimic your every move.
Instead of 1+1 = 3 (which is what you want, superior firepower through cooperation), you get 1+1 = 0.5 (since he kills your mobility and usually shots you in the back)
If a player looks at the map and decides that the best coarse of action is to form a lemmingtrain then he is by definition a bad player, now if you put a lot of bad players together they will just be a big pile of easy targets that cant hit anything.
Sort of like when you play a tank destroyer and get "one of those" guys that usually play heavy, and start to follow you 0.5m behind and mimic your every move.
Instead of 1+1 = 3 (which is what you want, superior firepower through cooperation), you get 1+1 = 0.5 (since he kills your mobility and usually shots you in the back)
Ikarases
03 Aug 2012
The worst option is defensive lemming train... Ussually found on hill of Prokhorovka (ussually low-tier matches)...
Ikarases
03 Aug 2012
Calebos, on 03 August 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:
As many have said the point proves itself.
If a player looks at the map and decides that the best coarse of action is to form a lemmingtrain then he is by definition a bad player, now if you put a lot of bad players together they will just be a big pile of easy targets that cant hit anything.
Sort of like when you play a tank destroyer and get "one of those" guys that usually play heavy, and start to follow you 0.5m behind and mimic your every move.
Instead of 1+1 = 3 (which is what you want, superior firepower through cooperation), you get 1+1 = 0.5 (since he kills your mobility and usually shots you in the back)
If a player looks at the map and decides that the best coarse of action is to form a lemmingtrain then he is by definition a bad player, now if you put a lot of bad players together they will just be a big pile of easy targets that cant hit anything.
Sort of like when you play a tank destroyer and get "one of those" guys that usually play heavy, and start to follow you 0.5m behind and mimic your every move.
Instead of 1+1 = 3 (which is what you want, superior firepower through cooperation), you get 1+1 = 0.5 (since he kills your mobility and usually shots you in the back)
Better option is when he blocks your fall-back move and then hide behind a wreck... (but as a TD it looks like you´re a lemming train leader too lol)
Snib
03 Aug 2012
Dead_Skin_Mask, on 03 August 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:
Agressive lemming train = wolfpack The difference is usually in speed. Lemmings hide when see one enemy and wait for his death, wolfpack surrounds him and eat in 10 sec.
The difference is usually in speed. Lemmings hide when see one enemy and wait for his death, wolfpack surrounds him and eat in 10 sec.
ClassicFrog
03 Aug 2012
Just as others pointed out, but I'll try to refine the answer.
It's a crowd psychology really. First of all, lemmings lack the situational awareness and they're able to focus only on what is right in front of them. This means they will be more likely to follow what the group is doing rather then what is going on on the map. Coincidently lemming trains usually form when players that either lack of initiative to navigate map on their own or they lack the knowledge of the map itself. They feel that if they stay in crowd and do what others do they will succeed.
When the lemming train "leader" encounter opposition he/she will stop to engage/take cover/die if ambushed. Lemming players who are suddenly put in a new situation will most likely do what "leader" did and hide as well, despite the number of tanks that are in the group. If they don't see majority of the group pushing forward they will not risk it either. They will gladly let die any brave soul who is either aggressive/naive/outright-stupid to attack and die without support. As they get damaged they feel more and more pressure and will tend to back off from the fight and hide behind any cover the can find. In the end they will get outflanked and picked off one by one.
On the other hand, if the majority of the group would keep it's momentum and attack despite no chances to success the rest will join in as well as they think it's the right thing to do. As a result the entire attack force is destroyed and the flank opened for the enemy to advance unopposed.
It's a crowd psychology really. First of all, lemmings lack the situational awareness and they're able to focus only on what is right in front of them. This means they will be more likely to follow what the group is doing rather then what is going on on the map. Coincidently lemming trains usually form when players that either lack of initiative to navigate map on their own or they lack the knowledge of the map itself. They feel that if they stay in crowd and do what others do they will succeed.
When the lemming train "leader" encounter opposition he/she will stop to engage/take cover/die if ambushed. Lemming players who are suddenly put in a new situation will most likely do what "leader" did and hide as well, despite the number of tanks that are in the group. If they don't see majority of the group pushing forward they will not risk it either. They will gladly let die any brave soul who is either aggressive/naive/outright-stupid to attack and die without support. As they get damaged they feel more and more pressure and will tend to back off from the fight and hide behind any cover the can find. In the end they will get outflanked and picked off one by one.
On the other hand, if the majority of the group would keep it's momentum and attack despite no chances to success the rest will join in as well as they think it's the right thing to do. As a result the entire attack force is destroyed and the flank opened for the enemy to advance unopposed.
sim2bas
03 Aug 2012
Lemmings are together but they're not a team
lemmings are moving forward but they're not attacking
lemmings are numerous but they are not courageous
lemmings are moving fast but they are not agile
Lemmings are firing a lot but they hit only clouds
Lemmins have big mouth but they make small damage
You can't turn a lemmings train in rush attack because they will stop at first blood and hide
Only solution is to count them as dead and make your own game with the few goods players and you will make more work than lemmings...
lemmings are moving forward but they're not attacking
lemmings are numerous but they are not courageous
lemmings are moving fast but they are not agile
Lemmings are firing a lot but they hit only clouds
Lemmins have big mouth but they make small damage
You can't turn a lemmings train in rush attack because they will stop at first blood and hide
Only solution is to count them as dead and make your own game with the few goods players and you will make more work than lemmings...
