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ST-1 Front hull armor

heavy hull ST-1 armor weak tier

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Bullett #1 Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:14 PM

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Dear Developers,


I had 227 battles with the tier 9 heavy ST-1, and I have to say, it is not good. Maybe the worst tier 9 heavy. Every gun (higher than tier 7) can penetrate the lower and middle front hull armor.
Very difficult to play properly with a problem like this. I heard about this from other players as well in the chat during the battles.
Please consider to make it more stronger, or buff it somehow.

Thanks,
Bullett

Brachiaraidos #2 Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:23 PM

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Welcome to the KV4/ST-I line. Hurridly rushed into the game, completely under designed, enormous flaws.

They've buffed it once, 7.5 buffed them again (they can't seem to grasp that a tad more hp and ground resistance don't mean jack when you're a big trundling weakspot), lord knows what they'll do next.

Long and short of it is that there are filler tanks, and WG didn't bother to make sure they preformed properly.

Hellbanan #3 Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:28 PM

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My opinion to that (not having played ST1 or AMX50-120):

Both IS8 and AMX 50-120 easier to penetrate frontally but that is ok since they are more maneuverable.
E75 and VK4502P are much harder to penetrate but that makes sense since they are slower and have low pen gun (therefore they need to get very close to pen any enemy)
M103 and ST1 have both great guns, average mobility (better than Germans worse than IS8, AMX) and average armor (worse than Germans, better than IS8, AMX)

If the ST-1s armor was increased that would leave E75 and VK4502P with no advantage. But I agree the ST-1 and M103 suffer from the problem of beeing the "average tank" they are ok in all aspects but they don't have any aspect where they outclass their oponents.

NatteFrost #4 Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:30 PM

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well just giving the st-1 the same hull buff that is4 got would be enughf.

and while they are at it, lower the aimtime to 3 sec and reduce the reload to about 12-13 sec reload, and rus would finaly get a decent t9 heavy again.

Brachiaraidos #5 Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:31 PM

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The ST-I? Mobile? Really? I mean, sure, it maxes out at 40km/h, but you have to get a hill to hit above 25 most of the time.

no_name_cro #6 Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:47 PM

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I think the front of ST1 is same as in IS4

Dom013 #7 Posted 11 August 2012 - 04:07 PM

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I could penetrate the ST-1's front armor with my T-29... Both of us were suprised...

Hellbanan #8 Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:47 PM

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View PostBrachiaraidos, on 11 August 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

The ST-I? Mobile? Really? I mean, sure, it maxes out at 40km/h, but you have to get a hill to hit above 25 most of the time.

Just compare it to VK4502P:
Frontal armor: VK wins (even though lower armor can be penetrated)
Side armor: ST-1 wins both by armor thickness (+40) and by sheer size of the side
Rear Armor: draw
Turret: draw - the VK has 2 more frontally but the ST-1 is in my eyes better shaped for frontal fire
Viewrange: VK wins by 32m
Penetration: ST-1 wins by miles. The 268mm pen is the same as in IS8 and can Penetrate every Tier9 in the game at ease (or at least I can) while VK is stuck with 246 pen (gives me a lot of trouble)
Damage: VK has higher alpha (+50) and higher dpm (I do not really care for dpm since you often can't shoot a target for multiple shots) so VK wins.
Accuracy: Both have 0.38, but bear in mind that the VK needs much more aiming to penetrate the enemy than ST-1 does because of its lack of penetration
Maneuverability: In my eyes ST-1 wins, both have a hp/ton ratio of ~11 (VK wins slightly) but ST-1 has 24 turn ratio vs 20 on VK. This is especially bad for VK since it has much less side armor.
Speed: 30km/h vs 40km/h. You say you never reach your 40km/h well go ahead and try reaching the 30 in VK...
Tactic: The VK has enourmous sides with weak armor and a turret mounted to the rear, that calls for sidescraping but since the ultra high pen guns were introduced this is not always possible. So you are left with an huge tank that has rather limited possibilites for positioning (for example you won't fight around a corner simply because you need to drive all the way into the open before you can fire). Don't get my wrong, I like the VK and its frontal armor but you are very vulnerable if you do the slightest mistake. The ST-1 on the other hand has  the conventional tank design. It can peakabo around corners. Showing your side in an non-optimal angle does not mean certain death. The 40mm more side armor allow sidescraping. When it is engaged by a faster tank it can turn quicker than the VK.

So I really don't see why the ST-1 is underpowered. It is not in every way superior to the VK4502P but it wins in Pen, Maneuverability, Side armor, Speed. Due to its design forgives mistakes more than the VK does and the high pen gun allows shots at ranges where aiming for weakspots is not really possible anymore.

But that is just my opinion from observing enemy ST-1 players (from my VK4502P, IS8, IS7, Object704).

NatteFrost #9 Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:55 PM

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View Postno_name_cro, on 11 August 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

I think the front of ST1 is same as in IS4

it is the same as the nerfed t9 is4 in 7.2, yes.
in that patch even a tiger H could frontaly pen a t9 is4 whit ap rounds and that is the same whit st-1 today.

Wolfesblut #10 Posted 11 August 2012 - 06:09 PM

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The 8.8L71 could always penetrate the IS-4 frontally (with enough time and peace to aim properly)

Hellbanan #11 Posted 11 August 2012 - 07:06 PM

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View PostWolfesblut, on 11 August 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

The 8.8L71 could always penetrate the IS-4 frontally (with enough time and peace to aim properly)

True. In my eyes that is a good thing. A 200mm pen gun should be able to pen Tier9 tanks. Not everywhere but if aimed at weakspots.

Bullett #12 Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:51 PM

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View PostHellbanan, on 11 August 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Just compare it to VK4502P:
Frontal armor: VK wins (even though lower armor can be penetrated)
Side armor: ST-1 wins both by armor thickness (+40) and by sheer size of the side
Rear Armor: draw
Turret: draw - the VK has 2 more frontally but the ST-1 is in my eyes better shaped for frontal fire
Viewrange: VK wins by 32m
Penetration: ST-1 wins by miles. The 268mm pen is the same as in IS8 and can Penetrate every Tier9 in the game at ease (or at least I can) while VK is stuck with 246 pen (gives me a lot of trouble)
Damage: VK has higher alpha (+50) and higher dpm (I do not really care for dpm since you often can't shoot a target for multiple shots) so VK wins.
Accuracy: Both have 0.38, but bear in mind that the VK needs much more aiming to penetrate the enemy than ST-1 does because of its lack of penetration
Maneuverability: In my eyes ST-1 wins, both have a hp/ton ratio of ~11 (VK wins slightly) but ST-1 has 24 turn ratio vs 20 on VK. This is especially bad for VK since it has much less side armor.
Speed: 30km/h vs 40km/h. You say you never reach your 40km/h well go ahead and try reaching the 30 in VK...
Tactic: The VK has enourmous sides with weak armor and a turret mounted to the rear, that calls for sidescraping but since the ultra high pen guns were introduced this is not always possible. So you are left with an huge tank that has rather limited possibilites for positioning (for example you won't fight around a corner simply because you need to drive all the way into the open before you can fire). Don't get my wrong, I like the VK and its frontal armor but you are very vulnerable if you do the slightest mistake. The ST-1 on the other hand has  the conventional tank design. It can peakabo around corners. Showing your side in an non-optimal angle does not mean certain death. The 40mm more side armor allow sidescraping. When it is engaged by a faster tank it can turn quicker than the VK.

So I really don't see why the ST-1 is underpowered. It is not in every way superior to the VK4502P but it wins in Pen, Maneuverability, Side armor, Speed. Due to its design forgives mistakes more than the VK does and the high pen gun allows shots at ranges where aiming for weakspots is not really possible anymore.

But that is just my opinion from observing enemy ST-1 players (from my VK4502P, IS8, IS7, Object704).



Every tier 9 heavies' front armor should be thick/strong enough to bounce many shots. I mean, we are talking about TIER 9 HEAVIES! All of them can do this, except ST-1 (and IS-8, but that is at least fast.)

SchDerGrosse #13 Posted 12 August 2012 - 03:09 PM

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Loofah #14 Posted 12 August 2012 - 11:38 PM

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View PostHellbanan, on 11 August 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Just compare it to VK4502P:
Frontal armor: VK wins (even though lower armor can be penetrated)
Side armor: ST-1 wins both by armor thickness (+40) and by sheer size of the side
Rear Armor: draw
Turret: draw - the VK has 2 more frontally but the ST-1 is in my eyes better shaped for frontal fire
Viewrange: VK wins by 32m
Penetration: ST-1 wins by miles. The 268mm pen is the same as in IS8 and can Penetrate every Tier9 in the game at ease (or at least I can) while VK is stuck with 246 pen (gives me a lot of trouble)
Damage: VK has higher alpha (+50) and higher dpm (I do not really care for dpm since you often can't shoot a target for multiple shots) so VK wins.
Accuracy: Both have 0.38, but bear in mind that the VK needs much more aiming to penetrate the enemy than ST-1 does because of its lack of penetration
Maneuverability: In my eyes ST-1 wins, both have a hp/ton ratio of ~11 (VK wins slightly) but ST-1 has 24 turn ratio vs 20 on VK. This is especially bad for VK since it has much less side armor.
Speed: 30km/h vs 40km/h. You say you never reach your 40km/h well go ahead and try reaching the 30 in VK...
Tactic: The VK has enourmous sides with weak armor and a turret mounted to the rear, that calls for sidescraping but since the ultra high pen guns were introduced this is not always possible. So you are left with an huge tank that has rather limited possibilites for positioning (for example you won't fight around a corner simply because you need to drive all the way into the open before you can fire). Don't get my wrong, I like the VK and its frontal armor but you are very vulnerable if you do the slightest mistake. The ST-1 on the other hand has  the conventional tank design. It can peakabo around corners. Showing your side in an non-optimal angle does not mean certain death. The 40mm more side armor allow sidescraping. When it is engaged by a faster tank it can turn quicker than the VK.

So I really don't see why the ST-1 is underpowered. It is not in every way superior to the VK4502P but it wins in Pen, Maneuverability, Side armor, Speed. Due to its design forgives mistakes more than the VK does and the high pen gun allows shots at ranges where aiming for weakspots is not really possible anymore.

But that is just my opinion from observing enemy ST-1 players (from my VK4502P, IS8, IS7, Object704).

VK doesn't have higher DPM. Since 0.7.5 ST-1 has noticeably higher DPM than German T9 heavies.
And DPM is VERY important. It is the most underrated thing in game, but the longer I play it, the more I realise how much does it influence my performances. Higher DPM = more battlefield flexibility, ability to fire twice while some enemies fire once etc. etc. ST-1 has slightly better DPM, but noticeably better ROF, and since high alpha very often = wasting tons of damage potential in many situations and on misses...
I think T110E5 should have learned everyone about this already - 400 alpha is absolutely enough, anything more than that does not really improve the performance, since it sacrifices ROF, and ROF very often = general utility (tracking, hurting modules, finishing off low-HP targets).

Edited by Loofah, 12 August 2012 - 11:44 PM.


Redez #15 Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:44 PM

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Looks good on paper, but in reality it gets penned nearly anywhere.. Especially the gun mantle. Don't listen to those 'armor schemes'. Just sold it.

Kwagga #16 Posted 18 August 2012 - 02:02 PM

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View PostRedez, on 17 August 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Looks good on paper, but in reality it gets penned nearly anywhere.. Especially the gun mantle. Don't listen to those 'armor schemes'. Just sold it.

Your fail and your loss. I spent hours in the training room with the ST-I.