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Nerfs to French TD's in 0.8.0 and general discussion about them


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Eeti #1 Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:17 PM

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AMX AC Mle. 1946

RoF: 6.45 -> 6
Aim time: 2.3 -> 2.9

HP: 840 -> 820
Traverse: 28 -> 26

AMX AC Mle. 1948

100mm SA 47 AC
RoF: 7.79 -> 7.5
Aim time: 1.7 -> 2.3

120mm SA 46 AC
RoF: 6 -> 5.77
Aim time: 2.3 -> 2.9

AMX 50 Foch

RoF: 6.67 -> 6.45  
Aim time: 1.7 -> 2.3

Traverse: 30 -> 28

AMX-50 Foch (155)

RoF: 2.86 -> 2.77
Accuracy: 0.35 -> 0.36

Dr_Nooooo #2 Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:20 PM

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Foch has already 1550HP and 0.33 accuracy in 0.7.5, together with an RoF of 6,67 and not 7,14.

Eeti #3 Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:31 PM

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View PostDr_Nooooo, on 08 September 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Foch has already 1550HP and 0.33 accuracy in 0.7.5, together with an RoF of 6,67 and not 7,14.

Oh, then wotdb has obsolete info.

Dr_Nooooo #4 Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:52 PM

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Probably the base values they use are still from 0.7.4

ollonborre #5 Posted 08 September 2012 - 02:10 PM

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These nerfs don't seem to be so significant. I can live with the slightly longer reload and aimtime. The "biggest" change though is that drum reload on the Foch 155, since even a few seconds can mean life or death with an autoloader.
As long as they don't touch their mobility anymore I'm happy.

Nevertheless I will still continue my grinding.

Eeti #6 Posted 08 September 2012 - 03:14 PM

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Added AMX AC Mle. 1946.

future_shock #7 Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:49 AM

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So the Mle1948 will become close to useless with that high aimtime. 2.9 seconds are ages for a TD, which needs to move hull most of the times. Foch155 has 3 seconds aimtime and that's damn long but worth because of the high damage output. 2.9 seconds aiming for amazing 350dmg? :Smile_trollface-3:

ollonborre #8 Posted 09 September 2012 - 08:07 AM

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Well the Schneider 105 on the S-35 has 3 sec aimtime for 300 damage and lousy accuracy, the ARL V39 90 mm DCA has a 2.9 sec aimtime with an amazing 240 average damage :Smile_blinky:

And not to mention that most Soviet tanks past the SU-152 also has rather bad aimtime with below average penetration and accuracy.

Justin666 #9 Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:33 PM

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once again wargaming being idiots... leave the foch alone

anonym_8bZ7IEbUDtDt #10 Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:37 PM

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Nerfing anything which isn't Soviet... Usual.
Why, WG?! Whyyyyyy??!!

future_shock #11 Posted 09 September 2012 - 01:30 PM

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I just wonder why there is no arty nerf for the french arties. I'm actually grinding them and they are crazy accurate..

Rokim #12 Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:57 AM

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Yes nerf foch and foch 155 so even few people who playing it will stop,eh just delete them from game,end of story.I see one of them every 100 battles already

Panzerfahrer_Jaguar2 #13 Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:01 PM

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Its necessary. The French High Tier TDs are way to strong.

Highway_Star #14 Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:55 PM

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More nerfs for the worse tank destroyer line in the game. I'd at least like to see the 120mm tier 10 gun get a rate of fire buff to give it equal DPM to the nations. Dealing just 400 damage per shot just doesn't cut it with the current ROF.

Exocet6951 #15 Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:16 PM

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View PostHighway_Star, on 10 September 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

More nerfs for the worse tank destroyer line in the game. I'd at least like to see the 120mm tier 10 gun get a rate of fire buff to give it equal DPM to the nations. Dealing just 400 damage per shot just doesn't cut it with the current ROF.
It could work with that low alpha,  a decent rate of fire, if it had more view range, slightly better camo and accuracy.

The problem comes from terribads playing this game that simply cannot defeat the Foch, which is as tanks go, Achilles with a heel the size of the moon.
There is one strong point about the tank, and it's the 180mm glacis. The rest is so weak, it makes tier5 medium tanks giggle. The tracks are breakable in a single shot from a 88mm+ gun, the side and roof armor can be penetrated by any gun at that tier, provided it's not at a ricochet angle (which won't apply to 152 and 155mm guns, I dare add), the alpha is too low to scare off anything, the rate of fire isn't high enough to permatrack, and the low aiming  time is offset by the freakishly high dispersion. As for the gun traverse and depression, it's awful.

BUT, that 180mm glacis makes terribads just bounce and bounce, or try to circle it without tracking it first, leaving the Foch the ability to devastate them, while they meet the one strong part of the tank.
Hence the injustified nerfs.
Once again, the very low amounts of people that actually grinded that branch fast ruined it for the rest of us by not being terrible. The entire French branch is forsaken, simply because every time they're going to release a new branch, only some 500 motivated, and perhaps naive, people are going to grind it to the end, only for them to perform as well as a group of decent players with a capable machine that passed super-testing and internal testing, unleashed on random battles are expected to perform, and WG taking notes on that minority, and nerfing it accordingly.

Release something like the mle48 right now, and give it to every single player in the game, and just see how much the players would laugh at how awful it is.

Krizmuz #16 Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:40 PM

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Why nerfing 1946??
        

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HariSeldon #17 Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:42 AM

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View PostExocet6951, on 10 September 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

It could work with that low alpha  a decent rate of fire, if it had more view range, slightly better camo and accuracy.

The problem comes from terribads playing this game that simply cannot defeat the Foch, which is as tanks go, Achilles with a hell the size of the moon.
There is one strong point about the tank, and it's the 180mm glacis. The rest is so weak, is makes tier5 medium tanks giggle. The tracks are breakable in a single shot from a 88mm+ gun, the side and roof armor can be penetrated by any gun at that tier, provided it's not at a ricochet angle (which won't apply to 152 and 155mm guns, I dare add), the alpha is too low to scare off anything, the rate of fire isn't high enough to permatrack, and the low aiming  time is offset by the freakishly high dispersion. As for the gun traverse and depression, it's awful.

BUT, that 180mm glacis makes terribads just bounce and bounce, or try to circle it without tracking it first, leaving the Foch the ability to devastate them, while they meet the one strong part of the tank.
Hence the injustified nerfs.
Once again, the very low amounts of people that actually grinded that branch fast ruined it for the rest of us by not being terrible. The entire French branch is forsaken, simply because every time they're going to release a new branch, only some 500 motivated, and perhaps naive, people are going to grind it to the end, only for them to perform as well as a group of decent players with a capable machine that passed super-testing and internal testing, unleashed on random battles are expected to perform, and WG taking notes on that minority, and nerfing it accordingly.

Release something like the mle48 right now, and give it to every single player in the game, and just see how much the players would laugh at how awful it is.


+1


And it happens to every single new tank in the game because the Nerf & Buff deparment don't know what the reallity behind the numbers means. They just forget where the numbers come from or just ignore the fact.


If they are aware of it, I can think in many tanks that been nerferd or buffed without reason. Buffing the IS4 was totally unnecesary, FFS now it have close o the HP of a Maus.....and maus is one of the most nerfed tanks in game.


If a tanks is bad, it have many tickets to be nerfed more, the way I see it is similar to Exocet:

-Bad tank->Less people grinding or interested in it.
-Few people like it because or the looks or some weird reason (some pros and some average, the usual bad players quit the tank), so they continue playing it. Been better and especialiced.
-Stats goes up as they have only experts on that tank instead the mix of bad, terrible and good players. If only a little amount of people play it being adept to the gamestyle, they overall performance rise among others.
-Buff and Nerf deparment see the numbers and instead of look the real thing, they decide a random nerf to have the tank been on par with other "stats".
-Tank become worse (more than before) so more people sell the tank because they cant stand in an equal fight not being a burden to the team and their creds. Let say Half quit the tank. With real "adeps/pros" standing with it, and "adepts/average" quit.
-Stats rise once more, because pros usually wins and make the tank still have good stats even with a minimal population of that tank drivers.
-The tank hold they uber nerfed stats, or even being nerfed again for the sake of "balance".


And none can say is not like that. Maus, E100, JpanzerIV, Somua40, AMX40, IS4, IS7, Lorraine40t, and many more are living proff of that.


And opposite is the same. A tank is buffed, more people play it as product of being popular (including those players that are bad with every single tank in game), it continue to been buffed because no matter how you buff it, the overall population hold the stats not to rise because of the bad players....and go on.


Balance working as intended TM.

Lolleroman #18 Posted 12 September 2012 - 05:54 AM

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View PostHariSeldon, on 11 September 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

And it happens to every single new tank in the game because the Nerf & Buff deparment don't know what the reallity behind the numbers means. They just forget where the numbers come from or just ignore the fact.

Yeah this is the only truth, as I said, they don't take in account the skill level of player's playing different tanks.

My eff is close to 1700 and

-I have Bat155, usually when I see another Bat155 he has good eff too. Most of the bad players haven't got this spg yet because they suck at grinding.
Only few bad players have bought it with cash, and didn't hit anything with it, got killed during reload, so they quit it and go back to soviet cheat tanks. Now only good players left to play with it => higher win ratio => NERFMTFGBOOMBOOM

-I have T110E3, again bad players haven't seen it coming before so they didn't grind for it before the td patch. Good players killing tanks with it, some bad players again bought it with cash, noticed that every shot goes trough lower plate and sides and quit the tank to go back to soviet cheat tanks. Now only good players left to play with it => higher win ratio => NERFMTFGBOOMBOOM

-Obj.263 comes out from test server. Every bad player wants to get it since they've heard it's wildly unbalanced and overpowered and they are playing soviet tanks anyway.Still they somehow manage to reverse it ass-first into the enemy base and lose with it. Still they manage to stay still for minute and get shot by an arty. Good players playing USA, French tanks (some crazy even German) not getting low enough to play with this as they don't play soviet cheat tanks anyway => lower win ratio => BUFFMTFGBUFFBUFF

Ranzir #19 Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:52 PM

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I understand nerfs annoy people, but only nerfs here that are uncalled for are ones on mle. -46 and -48. Atm Foch and Foch155 are not exactly op, they are very good, decent frontal, very good mobility, good gun and generally joy to play... and after normalisation change the front feels indeed nice. So nerfs won't cripple the tank and after few rounds in test I will continue grinding the line in live.

Why nerfs are needed at all is because they are really bringing nerfbat hard on U.S. TD line, T110E4 is becoming glass cannon, and T110E3 getting nerf on mobility and aim time... so leaving french TDs untouched would have made them clearly op when compared to americans.

However in this situation Obj 263 is totally fubar and will leave all other T10 TD's wanting... and  Obj. 268 will become clear front-runner for the 'old' T10 TDs. Can't really say anything about JgE100, havent tried it, but safe to say that all other feedback indicates that it still underperforms badly.

If there won't be major nerfing on 263 and at least some nerf to 268 it is safe to say that there is clear soviet bias on top TD's.

Edited by Ranzir, 13 September 2012 - 12:58 PM.


FR3DD3STAR #20 Posted 13 September 2012 - 02:13 PM

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View PostLolleroman, on 12 September 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

Yeah this is the only truth, as I said, they don't take in account the skill level of player's playing different tanks.

My eff is close to 1700 and

-I have Bat155, usually when I see another Bat155 he has good eff too. Most of the bad players haven't got this spg yet because they suck at grinding.
Only few bad players have bought it with cash, and didn't hit anything with it, got killed during reload, so they quit it and go back to soviet cheat tanks. Now only good players left to play with it => higher win ratio => NERFMTFGBOOMBOOM

-I have T110E3, again bad players haven't seen it coming before so they didn't grind for it before the td patch. Good players killing tanks with it, some bad players again bought it with cash, noticed that every shot goes trough lower plate and sides and quit the tank to go back to soviet cheat tanks. Now only good players left to play with it => higher win ratio => NERFMTFGBOOMBOOM

-Obj.263 comes out from test server. Every bad player wants to get it since they've heard it's wildly unbalanced and overpowered and they are playing soviet tanks anyway.Still they somehow manage to reverse it ass-first into the enemy base and lose with it. Still they manage to stay still for minute and get shot by an arty. Good players playing USA, French tanks (some crazy even German) not getting low enough to play with this as they don't play soviet cheat tanks anyway => lower win ratio => BUFFMTFGBUFFBUFF


This argument is neither new nor (imho) reasonable. Nerfs and buffs are applied in every patch. You cant say, Bat155, E3 and E4 are weak or underperforming tanks with their current players. Since this is a game, it isnt fair to keep those on the live server with this features. If you are the really good player (that you claim to be) you will still be able to drive them after the patch succesfully. They will hardly be worse than your other "PRO"-tanks.

Btw: It might be an idea to give the "cheater" tanks a try.



View PostRanzir, on 13 September 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

[...]

Why nerfs are needed at all is because they are really bringing nerfbat hard on U.S. TD line, T110E4 is becoming glass cannon, and T110E3 getting nerf on mobility and aim time... so leaving french TDs untouched would have made them clearly op when compared to americans.

However in this situation Obj 263 is totally fubar and will leave all other T10 TD's wanting... and  Obj. 268 will become clear front-runner for the 'old' T10 TDs. Can't really say anything about JgE100, havent tried it, but safe to say that all other feedback indicates that it still underperforms badly.

If there won't be major nerfing on 263 and at least some nerf to 268 it is safe to say that there is clear soviet bias on top TD's.

You say the E4 will BECOME a glass canon. O268 IS one. O268 can deal real damage but has NO armor against tier X guns. Nearly the whole front side is a weakspot not just some rather small areas. ATM the E4 can do heavy damage and lead an attack at the same time. Looks like an allround, turning-turred td (read HEAVY TANK) for me.
The O263 will be the FIRST russian td which has RELIABLE (-> hull down possible) armor.  If you say the o263 is going to be OP you have to admit the french td is OP too.  No argument about the JpE100.

Pls show me the russian biased, op tanks. I am looking forward to it.




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