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Crusader outclassed by other tier 5's ?

Crusader tier5 british tanks 8.1

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TheMuffinPirate #1 Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:49 PM

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Maybe I'm missing something, but can someone please tell me what role the crusader is suppose to play at tier 5. Granted I'm only playing with a 75% crew, so it will improve, but I'm really struggling with it. I don't want to sound ungrateful for the new tanks, but It feels inferior in almost every way to tanks like the T-34 and Pz3/4 which have a similar play style but are just better in almost every way.

Compared it to the T-34.
It's gun has less pen, does less damage (despite being the same caliber WTF? starting to believe in Russian bias) and is nowhere near as accurate. To compensate it shoots at 27rpm instead of 26.

It has a slightly better power/weight ratio and the same traverse, but the ground resistance feels awful. It bleeds speed horribly when turning making it impossible to circle tanks. You may be able to turn 40 degrees a second on the spot, but when travelling at it's disappointing top speed of 44, the tank turns at what feels more like 30 degrees and your speed halves. The t-34 on the other hand is faster, going 55 and feels much more agile at high speeds able to hold it's speed in corners. Same story with the pz3/4

And to top it all off, it's armor is nowhere near as bouncy. Is it just me that's having a problem with this tank or do wargaming really need to buff it? It's gun is too inaccurate to snipe. There are faster tanks for flanking or scouting and it's not agile enough to be a close range brawler. What is the point of it?


Thanks for all the feedback guys, it's much appreciated  :Smile_Default:

looks like we can conclude that this tanks strengths are its:
low profile
Camo rating
and its gun depression.

Thanks for all your valuable insight, it's made the crusader a much more enjoyable experience for me. So much so that I've decided to keep it, even though I'm now thoroughly enjoying the Cromwell

Edited by TheMuffinPirate, 13 November 2012 - 11:37 PM.


eliocoric #2 Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:03 PM

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I love his tank... mobile, fast firing gun with good penetration .... that's enough for me.

anonym_kL7qtn3e52MB #3 Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:05 PM

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Just a basic tip: Don't judge a tank before your crew reaches 100% and has all 3 equipment slots filled.


Next:

This tank is in a class of it's own (just like the ELC AMX, which is a light TD) it's not a light tank intended to scout with. It's not a medium tank either.

At first I tried to be a mobile scout (not enough mobility, speed or traverse) and I tried "passive/bush" scouting (hard ot reach the best places for this task because of it's lacking speed)

I'm not sure about the basic camouflage factor of this tank, but I'm training my crew with the camoulfage skill first and see how this goes.

anonym_kL7qtn3e52MB #4 Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:17 PM

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View PostKirovZSSR, on 05 November 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

No, you have to judge the tank as it is, not upgraded by all that equipment.


I don't even....

TheMuffinPirate #5 Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:21 PM

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View PostCostarring, on 05 November 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Just a basic tip: Don't judge a tank before your crew reaches 100% and has all 3 equipment slots filled.


Next:

This tank is in a class of it's own (just like the ELC AMX, which is a light TD) it's not a light tank intended to scout with. It's not a medium tank either.

At first I tried to be a mobile scout (not enough mobility, speed or traverse) and I tried "passive/bush" scouting (hard ot reach the best places for this task because of it's lacking speed)

I'm not sure about the basic camouflage factor of this tank, but I'm training my crew with the camoulfage skill first and see how this goes.

I have all 3 equipment slots filled. I'm running with vents, enhanced suspension and a gun laying drive. Thought I'd go all out as it was half off equipment last weekend. And as I said I know that it will get better with a higher crew, but the fact remains that statistically it's inferior to others in it's tier. I've been playing my T-34 with a 75% crew lately as I transferred the old crew to the T-43 and whilst I noticed a performance drop, I would still take a 75% T-34 over a 75% Crusader.

You make a good point about the elc having it's own unique playstyle and this tank being the same. I just wish I could find how to make this tank work. the annoying thing is that I really enjoyed the A13 which is very similar in terms or performance. The main problem I have is that the competition is much tougher at tier 5 and this tank just doesn't feel competitive. Much like the M7MT, not a bad tank but why would you choose it over a great tank like the Sherman.

Hokum15 #6 Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:16 PM

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The Crusader isn't out classed, but need to find a niche on the battlefield. I think it could do with a buff to its speed bleed in a turn, but I’ve had success with the tank in open battles. On enclosed city maps its out gunned and armoured but on an open map with cover and skill it can be hard to see and pack a hefty punch. I’ve killed 6 KV-2’s since last week and a KV-3 one on one with usage of hills and terrain for cover.

meercat #7 Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:59 PM

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With the 2 pdr this is more of an observation post than a tank, specially when the MM gets into its stride and one is fighting Tigers and T29s. The 6 pdr improves matters somewhat  but still doesn't make up for the pedestrian speed and laughable armour. The only fun part is the amount of gun depression which finally lets one use hull-down positions. The route to the Cromwell is going to be a real pain.

TheMuffinPirate #8 Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:24 PM

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View PostHokum15, on 05 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

The Crusader isn't out classed, but need to find a niche on the battlefield. I think it could do with a buff to its speed bleed in a turn, but I’ve had success with the tank in open battles. On enclosed city maps its out gunned and armoured but on an open map with cover and skill it can be hard to see and pack a hefty punch. I’ve killed 6 KV-2’s since last week and a KV-3 one on one with usage of hills and terrain for cover.

Definitely agree that decreasing the speed bleeding effect would help this tank.
I'm not saying that you can't have good games in the tank, in fact since starting this topic i've had 2 900+xp games in the crusader. The problem is that in both of those games it was a combination of luck and personal judgement that won me the xp, not  any qualities unique to the tank. Had I been in a T-34 or Pz3/4, in either of those games, I would have done just as well if not better.
Name one thing that the crusader can do better than a T-34. The only thing I can come up with is that it's accelerates slightly quicker in a straight line, but within a few seconds the T-34 will catch up and overtake due to the underwhelming speed limit of 44kmph.

Kyphe #9 Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:59 PM

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well killing a T34 in a crusadier is easy, its really the german T5 that you have to worry about, the pz4 if it has the derp and the pz3/4 can dog fight you to death in a heartbeat if you get caught.

but non on them have the camo value and the light tank camo on the move bonus.

azakow #10 Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:26 PM

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T-34 and Pz3/4 may hve a similar play style, if you compare them. To compare them with the Crusader is comparing apples and peaches.

The Crusader has a superior gun in terms of DPM, it has a low profile, a strong and sloped turret and the camo value of an LT.

My conclusion is to spam shells from second row or to stay completely invisible by shooting at outlines only. A bounce or zero damage does not matter since the next shell is send 2.15 seconds later. This is very different from the Pz3/4 and T-34.

The reworked maps offer very many advantagous bush locations as well as hull down locations.

TheMuffinPirate #11 Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:28 AM

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View PostKyphe, on 05 November 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

well killing a T34 in a crusadier is easy, its really the german T5 that you have to worry about, the pz4 if it has the derp and the pz3/4 can dog fight you to death in a heartbeat if you get caught.

but non on them have the camo value and the light tank camo on the move bonus.

That's a very good point actually. I hadn't thought of that one. Does it definitely get the light tank camo bonuses on the move. It's just that it gets medium MM. If this is confirmed then my opinion if this tank has just improved greatly. I know that Costarring said he was training his crew in camo. Would love to hear how effective that is. Maybe that's the crusaders niche. It's a stealth tank  :Smile-hiding:

anonym_kL7qtn3e52MB #12 Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:04 AM

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View PostTheMuffinPirate, on 06 November 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

That's a very good point actually. I hadn't thought of that one. Does it definitely get the light tank camo bonuses on the move. It's just that it gets medium MM. If this is confirmed then my opinion if this tank has just improved greatly. I know that Costarring said he was training his crew in camo. Would love to hear how effective that is. Maybe that's the crusaders niche. It's a stealth tank  :Smile-hiding:


@80% camo skill.

Sofar I have seen tanks as close as 120m that didn't spot me. Mind you I was sitting in a bush, not moving.

Temptis #13 Posted 06 November 2012 - 02:03 PM

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View PostCostarring, on 06 November 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

@80% camo skill.
Sofar I have seen tanks as close as 120m that didn't spot me. Mind you I was sitting in a bush, not moving.

that's not the deal though, mind testing it while moving?

max6ter #14 Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:52 AM

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View Postazakow, on 05 November 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

T-34 and Pz3/4 may hve a similar play style, if you compare them. To compare them with the Crusader is comparing apples and peaches.

The Crusader has a superior gun in terms of DPM, it has a low profile, a strong and sloped turret and the camo value of an LT.

My conclusion is to spam shells from second row or to stay completely invisible by shooting at outlines only. A bounce or zero damage does not matter since the next shell is send 2.15 seconds later. This is very different from the Pz3/4 and T-34.

The reworked maps offer very many advantagous bush locations as well as hull down locations.

Strong turret....  :Smile_trollface-3: please repeat that! Yeah, like DPM really counts when you have to fight from cover! Alpha is everything! Its different from Rus and Ger tanks because its utter crap. They are just crap. I own PzIV (great tank), T-34 (good tank - zis gun is great) and Crusader (meh).

Someone said that Crusader needs to find a niche on battlefield... what niche? Crusader cant scout because of bad speed. He cant play as medium because of bad armor and speed. He cant brawl because of lack of alpha damage, fail armor with weakspots seen from 500m. Whats the point of good gun depression when you are paper thin? Sloped turret, really? Maybe helpful in bouncing some stock tier III guns. Yes - ive had some success in driving this tank but so far its a fail. Still its not a worse grind than AMX40 (100% sure WG trolled us with this tank).

Nechrom #15 Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:26 AM

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The tank has a very low profile, wonderful camouflage, great gun depression, a decent gun and good speed.

It's not a brawler like the auto-cannon lights before it. It's a flanker at short to medium ranges. You shouldn't try to outmaneuver other tanks unless they are very slow. Use the gun depression and acceleration to pop out for one or two shots. The camo value is so good that you can often stay hidden at range even when firing.

azakow #16 Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:45 AM

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View Postmax6ter, on 07 November 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

Strong turret....  :Smile_trollface-3: please repeat that! Yeah, like DPM really counts when you have to fight from cover! Alpha is everything! Its different from Rus and Ger tanks because its utter crap. They are just crap. I own PzIV (great tank), T-34 (good tank - zis gun is great) and Crusader (meh).

Someone said that Crusader needs to find a niche on battlefield... what niche? Crusader cant scout because of bad speed. He cant play as medium because of bad armor and speed. He cant brawl because of lack of alpha damage, fail armor with weakspots seen from 500m. Whats the point of good gun depression when you are paper thin? Sloped turret, really? Maybe helpful in bouncing some stock tier III guns. Yes - ive had some success in driving this tank but so far its a fail. Still its not a worse grind than AMX40 (100% sure WG trolled us with this tank).
Your statement on the importance of alpha damage shows your current understanding of game play.
I assume you pee-A-boo alot during battle which makes sence for the vehicles you mention.

The key to success on this vehicle is, not to be seen at all, hence not being shot at. This is acheived by using cover that will hide me from the opponents, but allows me to deal damage at the same time.
Have you heard about the mighty double bush feature?
Are you able to apply this feature in battle?

My assessment is also based on a elite vehicle configuration 2nd turret and the "6 pdr Gun Mk. V (L/50)" gun.

Such vehicle configuration and game play enables me to deal about 590 damage per battle at current.
To me this value is supprisingly competive to your sample of a great, high alpha damage, vehicle like the PzIV.

max6ter #17 Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:59 PM

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View Postazakow, on 07 November 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Your statement on the importance of alpha damage shows your current understanding of game play.
I assume you pee-A-boo alot during battle which makes sence for the vehicles you mention.

The key to success on this vehicle is, not to be seen at all, hence not being shot at. This is acheived by using cover that will hide me from the opponents, but allows me to deal damage at the same time.
Have you heard about the mighty double bush feature?
Are you able to apply this feature in battle?

My assessment is also based on a elite vehicle configuration 2nd turret and the "6 pdr Gun Mk. V (L/50)" gun.

Such vehicle configuration and game play enables me to deal about 590 damage per battle at current.
To me this value is supprisingly competive to your sample of a great, high alpha damage, vehicle like the PzIV.

I know and i use the "double bush" tactic. However it often proves to be ineffective. Try to find a bush in city maps for example. Half of battles end up in camping fest and half in rush... fest. If you are camping then probably there are tanks camping around you in other bushes. So, every shot not only yours renders bush cover ineffective for few seconds within certain distance from the shooter. If the enemy is rushing you loose your bush cover quickly and cant do anything constructive about it except being shot to pieces. If the enemy is camping just as you do, and you need to be a scout, because you are a LT after all, then bam-bam you are dead again because the speed is almost good. You cant just say that this tank is good because you use bush tactic. The battlefield during battle constantly changes. Sometimes you need to rush flag, sometimes you camp in bush, and sometimes you need to circle a KV. This tank is barely average. If it suits your game play, thats fine! ~
I could work out this tank but its just no fun for me and certainly this tank is not a keeper just like t-34 and pzIv are.

Regarding alpha damage. I hope you didnt get the impression that im some kind of alpha freak. No, hell no. Ive just noticed that alpha damage in V tier and below fights is kinda important, even more than in VII-iX tier battles. For example, i was doing fairly good on my PzIv after the nerf with 75mm gun. Then i decided to change it for 10,5 just to see if it works better... and it does! Now my damage is around 1k per battle! With HE loaded i dont have to worry about not doing damage to enemy tanks, and the damage with HE on heavier armored targets is similar to 75mm. While the rof maybe slower, the one shotting less armored targets (T1 from the side!)  feature compensates it greatly. Btw. i cant one shot crusader, pzIv and t-34 with my pzIV, can you do the same thing with your Crusader? :P What i am saying is: you need to show me yourself like 5 times to shot at me while all i need is one shot...

This tank is a sniper that hides in second on third line of the assault/defense but both PzIV and T-34 do the better job at it.

azakow #18 Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:21 PM

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View Postmax6ter, on 07 November 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

You cant just say that this tank is good because you use bush tactic.
What i said is, to compare the Crusader with T-34 and Pz4 is comparing apples and peaches, becasue of a different vehicle class and therefore different roles in a match.
In addition to that I said, that the Crusader is able to compete in terms of damage per battle, given a certain play style.

View Postmax6ter, on 07 November 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

What i am saying is: you need to show me yourself like 5 times to shot at me while all i need is one shot...
I agree with you, the Pz4 has a higher damage potential per shoot.
Your statement is based on the assumption that I would peek-A-boo fight in a duel with you, effectively rendering my high RoF useless.

View Postmax6ter, on 07 November 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

This tank is a sniper that hides in second on third line of the assault/defense but both PzIV and T-34 do the better job at it.
I assume second or third line of the assault/defense to be more than 200m distance to the opponent vehicles.
I agree on the T-34 and the ZiS gun.
I disagree on Pz4 and the 10.5 gun, because of accuracy issues.

Sinclare #19 Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:26 PM

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Crusader has only one advantage: fast shooting. That's all. in every other aspects this tank is the worst in Tier5.

gibbet #20 Posted 07 November 2012 - 04:17 PM

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It is my impression that the Crusader is a "Ghost" tank, sometimes no one seems to notice even at less than 200M, you see the enemy looking around as another 100 points comes off their HP :arta:  it is quite extraordinary they stay still like a rabbit in front of a snake... However if you get noticed you are probably a kebab in the making ;)





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