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Crusader outclassed by other tier 5's ?

Crusader tier5 british tanks 8.1

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Kyphe #21 Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:45 AM

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View Postgibbet, on 07 November 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

It is my impression that the Crusader is a "Ghost" tank, sometimes no one seems to notice even at less than 200M, you see the enemy looking around as another 100 points comes off their HP :arta:  it is quite extraordinary they stay still like a rabbit in front of a snake... However if you get noticed you are probably a kebab in the making ;)
exactly and i have not even taken camo skill yet

Cimex1105 #22 Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

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I think the Crusader is a very good tank. I can see the reasons of the people who don't think so. I understand you guys. On paper and without applying a unique playstyle it really seems a bit "meh". I struggled at the beginning too.

To make this tank better than average you have to play a style, that no other tank posesses in exactly the same way. I'm not sure I can explain exactly what I mean with words (for me it was an evolutionary process), but I'll try to give you at least a hint on what I mean.

1. Crusader is for most practical purposes to be considered neither light nor medium, but somewhere in between. This means you have fairly good chances against light tanks, but should avoid brawling it out with meds.
2. Don't be ashamed to sit around in base for the first few minutes. The Crusader is immensly flexible in what it can do, so hanging back gives you the opporunity to assess the stratigic situation/set up of forces and exploit this in midgame or later. Also you are faily good in exterminating those pesky suicide rushing lights, so hanging back at the beginning can save your artys life.
3. Don't be ashamed to do a tactical withdrawl. You are definitivley not a tank to slug it out. Most enemy tanks will beat you in a fair and sqaure one on one. But nobody says you have to be fair. Retreat in a way you have cover (enviromental or teammates who prvide support fire, while thinking of enviroment+team>enviroment>team). Disappear. Wait for enemy to be distracted. Flank. Destroy. A little bit AMX 12t/13 style. One of the greatest strengths the Crusader has is its potential as a flanking tank if played with teamwork.
4. Never think you can hold a flank on your own except against very weak (or dumb) enemies. Run if you see you are alone. You can always come back a minute later with your mates and attack the enemy, help push another flank or go for an arty run. Of course a collapsed flank can loose the game, but tell me what difference that makes if those nasty KV-1S's coming along take about 2 seconds to steamroll you and then win the game anyway....
5. If you have a friend who also has a Crusader (or one you can motivate to get one) platoon up! The Crusader is one of the tanks that profits most if paired up with one of it's own that I know. 2 or 3 well coordinated Crusaders can rip apart any enemy they may encounter as long as they use cover and flanking tactics. And voice communications of course  :Smile_smile:

6. Use your insanely good gun depression (it's so good that you even can track yourself with the howitzer if you're in a funny mood....). This should of course be a no-brainer, but I often see people who obviously don't have much experience with high-depression tanks and expose themselves in stressful situations much more than they need to. And although your turret is made of some kind of hardened paper, you still are a smaller target....
7. Don't be afraid to use Premium Ammo for credits. I know this might be a tricky topic, but I for myself load about 10 premium shells and use them only in "do-or-die" situations where I still see a chance for our team to win. You will still make enough credits and the fast reload of the tank makes it fairly easy to switch between normal and premium according to the situation.


That's all I can think of right now, but I can't guarantee I didn't forget something. I play the Crusader more on instinct than on some kind of manual, just trying to put some words to it.

BrettonianQuestingKnight #23 Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:58 AM

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Let's compare the Crusader (that is supposed to be a light tank) with the same tier medium tank: Panzer 3/4:

Top speed: Pz3/4 > Crusader
Acceleration: Crusader > Pz3/4
Gun: Pz3/4 > Crusader
Armor: Pz3/4 > Crusader
Hit points: Crusader > Pz3/4
View Range: Crusader > Pz3/4

IMO the crusader needs a better top speed. 60 kmh would not be much for a light tank...but the current 44 kmh top speed for a light tank is pathetic.

azakow #24 Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:20 AM

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View PostBrettonianQuestingKnight, on 09 November 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Let's compare the Crusader (that is supposed to be a light tank) with the same tier medium tank: Panzer 3/4:

Top speed: Pz3/4 > Crusader
Acceleration: Crusader > Pz3/4
Gun: Pz3/4 > Crusader
Armor: Pz3/4 > Crusader
Hit points: Crusader > Pz3/4
View Range: Crusader > Pz3/4
This is an interessting assessment.
On what base does it stand?

I assume it is based on the average damage of the top gun, without taking the rate of fire (RoF) into account.
The Crusader is able to fire two shots in the same time span, hence is able to potentially deal more damage.

At current the battle mechanics will cause, zero dmg shoots, bounces and misses.
My assessment for the gun is "Crusader > Pz3/4"

At the moment the hit rate of the Crusader is suboptimal, but a GLD will help with that, once the camo net is obsolete.

lokkagutt #25 Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:51 AM

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View PostBrettonianQuestingKnight, on 09 November 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Let's compare the Crusader (that is supposed to be a light tank) with the same tier medium tank: Panzer 3/4:

Top speed: Pz3/4 > Crusader
Acceleration: Crusader > Pz3/4
Gun: Pz3/4 > Crusader
Armor: Pz3/4 > Crusader
Hit points: Crusader > Pz3/4
View Range: Crusader > Pz3/4

IMO the crusader needs a better top speed. 60 kmh would not be much for a light tank...but the current 44 kmh top speed for a light tank is pathetic.

And ontop of your way of accesing the best gun you think armour means a thing? Nothing will bounce on lights anyway appart from the odd bounce which happens ofc. Its really not needed any higher top speed in this monster. It would make it way to good. Atleast in my oppinion

NoRealNick #26 Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:11 PM

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View PostKyphe, on 05 November 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

well killing a T34 in a crusadier is easy, its really the german T5 that you have to worry about, the pz4 if it has the derp and the pz3/4 can dog fight you to death in a heartbeat if you get caught.

but non on them have the camo value and the light tank camo on the move bonus.

It seems you haven t encountered a good t-34 player yet. if he position his tank right you are dead in notime. and with the crusader you are not mobile enough to deal with a T-34.

View Postazakow, on 05 November 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

T-34 and Pz3/4 may hve a similar play style, if you compare them. To compare them with the Crusader is comparing apples and peaches.

The Crusader has a superior gun in terms of DPM, it has a low profile, a strong and sloped turret and the camo value of an LT.

My conclusion is to spam shells from second row or to stay completely invisible by shooting at outlines only. A bounce or zero damage does not matter since the next shell is send 2.15 seconds later. This is very different from the Pz3/4 and T-34.

The reworked maps offer very many advantagous bush locations as well as hull down locations.

Mh, both are fast tanks with fast firing guns, almost the same size and on the same tier. In allmost every aspekt they have similar stats. it s more like comparing a Braeburn with a Pink Lady or a Hamburger Royal TS with a Whopper.

More DPM? 2045,25 of the Crusader vs. 2217,65 of the T-34. Something is wrong with your math. And then each shot of the T-34 has better aiming (0,41 vs. 0.34 both at 2.3 aming speed) and penetration, while the crusader can struggle with the sloped armour of the T-34 in a slightly angled position.
Your point of 2nd line fighter would make some sence if the gun would have better penetration or accuracy.

I like the Crusader and i thing it is a good tank and it has a own role, but to have a slightly better camorate and better gun depression as only avantage is not enough if you are in all other aspects much worst then all the other T5 mediums and lights with the same MM. It needs some minor Buffs

azakow #27 Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:25 AM

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View PostNoRealNick, on 09 November 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

More DPM? 2045,25 of the Crusader vs. 2217,65 of the T-34. Something is wrong with your math. And then each shot of the T-34 has better aiming (0,41 vs. 0.34 both at 2.3 aming speed) and penetration, while the crusader can struggle with the sloped armour of the T-34 in a slightly angled position.
Your point of 2nd line fighter would make some sence if the gun would have better penetration or accuracy.
Nothing wrong with my math at all!
What gun stats are you using for your math?

Does your statement on the abilities of the T-34 come from your own exprience?
I'm asking, becasue your current performance (dmg per battle and hit rate) on Crusader @ 18 matches is much better than with your T-34 @ 200+.

I'm very puzzled about your statement.  :Smile_amazed:

NoRealNick #28 Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:21 AM

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View Postazakow, on 10 November 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

Nothing wrong with my math at all!
What gun stats are you using for your math?

Does your statement on the abilities of the T-34 come from your own exprience?
I'm asking, becasue your current performance (dmg per battle and hit rate) on Crusader @ 18 matches is much better than with your T-34 @ 200+.

I'm very puzzled about your statement.  :Smile_amazed:

mh im using ingame stats and wiki stats and that s said 27,27 @ 75dmg for the crusader 2045,25 and 26,09 @ 85dmg = 2217,65dmg for the T-34.  I m not complaining about the crusader, and you are right i like it much more then the T-34( because i have the strange habbit to get into T7 or T8 with old MM rounds only with it :-( ). but in the 18 games i have allways the strange felling that i would have been better in a T-34( what in fact i wouldn't because i get into high tier games  ;-) ). And maybe that is why i am worried about the crusader that he will be out matched after "british starting MM"(many low tier players) is gone. We will see.

azakow #29 Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:11 PM

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Sure the T-34 and ZiS gun has better DpM than Crusader!
My wrong.

Offtopic
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sword_of_Damocles #30 Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:03 PM

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I think that the last gun needs more damage

Slubbernaught #31 Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:51 PM

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I.HATE.THIS.TANK.
It's utter shite.Paper armour.Shit gun.Grinding for the Cromwell atm and I'm seriously not enjoying this tank at all.I feel like punching the screen every time it gets 1 shotted.Utter utter pish.
It needs a boost to armour and a better gun or more speed/agility.

Kyphe #32 Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:39 PM

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View PostNoRealNick, on 09 November 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

It seems you haven t encountered a good t-34 player yet. if he position his tank right you are dead in notime. and with the crusader you are not mobile enough to deal with a T-34.

You don't need much mobility, the T34 has not got it either and has terrible aim time, I can just out shoot them with a bit of rocking and lose less than 50%hp on a bad day..

if the t34 moves he cant hit you at all, where as you can move just enough to force his turret to move which also messes his aim up, and still hit him every time.

T34 zis4 has two values 17.65x85 which is a DPM of 1500.25 and 26.1x85 which is 2218.5, not sure but could be the two turrets, the T34 has 400hp
crusader 6pdr/L50 has 27.27x75 giving a 2045.25 DPM and the crusader has 450hp

Generally both have to hit each other between 5 and 6 times unless they start a fire, 5.25 shots for the T34 to kill a crusader and 5.33 shots for a crusader to kill a t34

Crusader fires 5 shots in 11 seconds

T34 fires 5 shots in 17 seconds or 11.49 seconds

whomever fires first wins presuming no misses or bounces, The crusader has the light moving camo bonus the crusader is more likely to get the first shot off.

T34 tends to be dangerous to a crusader when the crusader is not able to stand and fight due to risk of other tanks shooting, as the crusader is not fast enough to find cover from the T34s fire or avoid it when retreating.

but the same can be said in reverse.

Edited by Kyphe, 11 November 2012 - 04:04 PM.


azakow #33 Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:13 PM

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View PostSlubbernaught, on 11 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

I.HATE.THIS.TANK.
It's utter shite.Paper armour.Shit gun.Grinding for the Cromwell atm and I'm seriously not enjoying this tank at all.I feel like punching the screen every time it gets 1 shotted.Utter utter pish.
It needs a boost to armour and a better gun or more speed/agility.
This topic is not about hatred one or the other players develops while playing this vehicle.
It is about putting this vehicle into perseptive to the other LT/MT 5.

I assume the problems that lead to your conclusion reside not with the vehicle, but with the play style of commander at the keyboard.

A different play style is needed and will persist for the whole UK MT line until the end.
I recommend to adjust early in order to complete this grind successfuly and to prevent further disappointment.

Sinclare #34 Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:19 PM

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View PostKyphe, on 11 November 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

You don't need much mobility, the T34 has not got it either and has terrible aim time, I can just out shoot them with a bit of rocking and lose less than 50%hp on a bad day..

if the t34 moves he cant hit you at all, where as you can move just enough to force his turret to move which also messes his aim up, and still hit him every time.

T34 zis4 has two values 17.65x85 which is a DPM of 1500.25 and 26.1x85 which is 2218.5, not sure but could be the two turrets, the T34 has 400hp
crusader 6pdr/L50 has 27.27x75 giving a 2045.25 DPM and the crusader has 450hp

Generally both have to hit each other between 5 and 6 times unless they start a fire, 5.25 shots for the T34 to kill a crusader and 5.33 shots for a crusader to kill a t34

Crusader fires 5 shots in 11 seconds

T34 fires 5 shots in 17 seconds or 11.49 seconds

whomever fires first wins presuming no misses or bounces, The crusader has the light moving camo bonus the crusader is more likely to get the first shot off.

T34 tends to be dangerous to a crusader when the crusader is not able to stand and fight due to risk of other tanks shooting, as the crusader is not fast enough to find cover from the T34s fire or avoid it when retreating.

but the same can be said in reverse.

you forget two things:
1. the T-34 has got bouncing armor. The Crushit eats every shots over Tier2 guns.
2. the T-34 causes good damage, while the Crushit has got a BB gun for kids age under 3.

So your most shots will bounce off or cause no or very little damage, while the T-34 will shoot you through with every hit and cause 50%+ dmg.

Sinclare #35 Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:22 PM

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View PostSlubbernaught, on 11 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

I.HATE.THIS.TANK.
It's utter shite.Paper armour.Shit gun.Grinding for the Cromwell atm and I'm seriously not enjoying this tank at all.I feel like punching the screen every time it gets 1 shotted.Utter utter pish.
It needs a boost to armour and a better gun or more speed/agility.

You are totally right mate! This tank is slow to be a scout, and has got no armor no pen and no dmg to be a medium. So it's useless in any role, while in every situation it will be massacred. Except in one case (regardless the tier of the battle becasue any tank over Tier2 is lethatl to the Crushit):

the brits seem to be third-liner tanks. So, there shall be at least two attacking/defending line between you and your enemies or you will be oneshotted.

azakow #36 Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:04 PM

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View PostSinclare, on 11 November 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

You are totally right mate! This tank is slow to be a scout, and has got no armor no pen and no dmg to be a medium. So it's useless in any role, while in every situation it will be massacred. Except in one case (regardless the tier of the battle becasue any tank over Tier2 is lethatl to the Crushit):

View PostSinclare, on 11 November 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

you forget two things:
1. the T-34 has got bouncing armor. The Crushit eats every shots over Tier2 guns.
2. the T-34 causes good damage, while the Crushit has got a BB gun for kids age under 3.
So your most shots will bounce off or cause no or very little damage, while the T-34 will shoot you through with every hit and cause 50%+ dmg.
Do your statements come from your experience?
I'm asking, because this again seems to be a case of play style! Moreover 170+ dmg per battle and 7% survival rate on T-34 show what play style this is.
The same applied on Crusder will lead to even worst results and such conclusions.
It will not get better on Cromwell beleave me.

:Smile_honoring:

blobik34 #37 Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:35 PM

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At first i was thinking it's going to be worst grind ever but now crusader is one of the best tanks i've played
when crew is about 85 % gun is much better
i use rammer, camo net and binos and for now it's the most versatile combination for me
to enjoy this tank you just have to adjust your play style to MM
when in tier 7 you can scout but not like elc amx. I always go with heavys or somewhere near them and back off when i spot something and wait. when battle stops there and i'm not helpfull i go somewhere else to scout. Sometimes it's good to stay and use cofusion to sneak behind enemy ( i destroyed t29 this way guy was so focused whats in front of him that i was able to put 20 shots in his engine)
when i'm closer to top i go with mediums to support them ( but also its best to show up later than lets say cromwell and flank when they're busy)
when top dog it's fun all the way but it's best to keep moving (for lower tiers i use auto aim sometimes because its easier to drive all the time and the turret traverse is fast )

for ime crusader is the best tank for team players

Kyphe #38 Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:55 AM

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View PostSinclare, on 11 November 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

you forget two things:
1. the T-34 has got bouncing armor. The Crushit eats every shots over Tier2 guns.
2. the T-34 causes good damage, while the Crushit has got a BB gun for kids age under 3.

So your most shots will bounce off or cause no or very little damage, while the T-34 will shoot you through with every hit and cause 50%+ dmg.

I have never bounced a shot off a T34 and what are you talking about causes good damage? 50% damage? I gave you the damage per min figures, in detail, t34 looses in a duel with the crusader unless it is lucky enough to get the first shot, track on the second or have the driver of the crusader not know what the hell they are doing

oh and i bounced a IS shot btw lol three times in a row

Edited by Kyphe, 12 November 2012 - 01:56 AM.


Kyphe #39 Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:13 AM

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View Postazakow, on 11 November 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Do your statements come from your experience?
I'm asking, because this again seems to be a case of play style! Moreover 170+ dmg per battle and 7% survival rate on T-34 show what play style this is.
The same applied on Crusder will lead to even worst results and such conclusions.
It will not get better on Cromwell beleave me.

:Smile_honoring:

I don't understand him at all, he has done almost as much damage in the crusader as he has in the T34 in only half the amount of games, and almost killed as many tanks. his stats on the T34 are terrible, way worse than mine and I hated the T34.

my T34 stats are 54% win, 312 av damage per battle 282 av xp non prem, survived 22%
on the crusader its 58% win,  525 av damage per battle, 470 av xp non prem, survived 30%

so ofc it is no wonder I am a bit skeptical when people say the T34 is the better tank, even if i am not the best player in the world.

Geist_Krieger #40 Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:44 AM

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Crusader is more of a flanking tank than any other med/light tank.
Plus it has a really low height for its tier, so if you drive close to bigger tanks they cant even shoot you, it pretty easy to kill KV2s and even Tigers that way, just because they cant aim at you.





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