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Crusader outclassed by other tier 5's ?

Crusader tier5 british tanks 8.1

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Kyphe #61 Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:20 AM

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dysje #62 Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:22 PM

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View PostKyphe, on 21 November 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:


You can be all great with it and have lucky/good games, but that's not the point. I've got OK stats with it so far, just because I've only done a few games with it. Considering I'm at about 82 or so games with it, every win/lose makes more than a whopping 1% of difference. Not quite smart to look at stats when they can vary with just one or two losses/lucky wins.

Thing is, this tank sucks because I know in every good game I had with it, I could have done much much better in any other tank. Even 3 tiers lower. Just a few successes doesn't make it a good tank. Just compare it to other tier 5's. You will notice how it's less equipped in every single way, it simply has no benefits over any other tank. Even over most tier 4's.

Kyphe #63 Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:03 PM

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View Postdysje, on 22 November 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:



You can be all great with it and have lucky/good games, but that's not the point. I've got OK stats with it so far, just because I've only done a few games with it. Considering I'm at about 82 or so games with it, every win/lose makes more than a whopping 1% of difference. Not quite smart to look at stats when they can vary with just one or two losses/lucky wins.

Thing is, this tank sucks because I know in every good game I had with it, I could have done much much better in any other tank. Even 3 tiers lower. Just a few successes doesn't make it a good tank. Just compare it to other tier 5's. You will notice how it's less equipped in every single way, it simply has no benefits over any other tank. Even over most tier 4's.

almost all my games are good in this tank apart from a few unlucky ones. the game before that I raped a full health t34 in the open lol even though I was on 2thirds and lost not a point of health in the process, that was after soloing a t50 and finishing off a pz4, then I went on to kill a Matilda and a t34/85 as well as a low tier arty, shame the rest of the team died leaving me to handle a full health E8 a KV1s and gril by myself

dysje #64 Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:22 PM

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View PostKyphe, on 22 November 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

almost all my games are good in this tank apart from a few unlucky ones. the game before that I raped a full health t34 in the open lol even though I was on 2thirds and lost not a point of health in the process, that was after soloing a t50 and finishing off a pz4, then I went on to kill a Matilda and a t34/85 as well as a low tier arty, shame the rest of the team died leaving me to handle a full health E8 a KV1s and gril by myself

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point is no matter how good a single person (like you) is with the thing, that doesn't make it a good tank. Just one case means nothing. Especially since you have only 116 games with it at the moment of writing. The only thing that does means something is that the thing, on paper, is just rubbish as it has nothing special going for it that other tanks don't have. The mentioned benefits of this tank are nothing special to just this tank either and the tanks that can do the same, can usually do it much better.

Good for you you have such good fortunate with it, I hope for you it lasts. You've obviously managed to turn a shitty tank into something OK-ish. But your single case means nothing really when it comes to the overall performance of the tanky. I guess we'll just have to wait for the global win/loss ratio of the tank to pop up and see if it indeed performs so poorly, or if I may be wrong. Considering I'm usually never wrong, I can't wait for the stats.

The_Cardinal #65 Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:28 AM

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global win loss doesn't really matter at all just like XVM and those who belive in it (i was there maaaaan below 10% win rate and 5 incactives we won 15:0)

yes is can be the worst tank on the field when looking at tier 7s it can't pen and struggles to do much to a tier 6 even when flanking

it's pretty much an upgrade and not a shabby one either, atleast now you can damage those KVs  

this tank is pretty damn good on assault spot, move don't fire work  and find a way through to damage what you can

dysje #66 Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:19 PM

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View PostThe_Cardinal, on 23 November 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

global win loss doesn't really matter at all just like XVM and those who belive in it (i was there maaaaan below 10% win rate and 5 incactives we won 15:0)

yes is can be the worst tank on the field when looking at tier 7s it can't pen and struggles to do much to a tier 6 even when flanking

it's pretty much an upgrade and not a shabby one either, atleast now you can damage those KVs  

this tank is pretty damn good on assault spot, move don't fire work  and find a way through to damage what you can

While most of the stats XVM uses are broken and completely misinterpreted, and since it's become a religion to a fair few, saying anything about that is pure bull. However, global winratio is completely different.

After a tank has been released for a while (couple of months, when every noob and self-proclaimed pro and everything in between has had their hands on it), global win/loss of a specific tank over the average of all players means absolutely everything about the performance of a tank. The sample size is large enough to account for all the variables and the numbers come from a varied and large enough group to be very certain of the validity of the number. However, now is not the time when that's possible just yet, as not many people have had to endure the pleasure torment to play with this thing yet.

It is true that for almost all players win ratio means absolutely nothing due to many factors involved, but when talking about the global win rate of a specific tank over all players in the game, it says absolutely everything.

Kyphe #67 Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

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View Postdysje, on 23 November 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:



While most of the stats XVM uses are broken and completely misinterpreted, and since it's become a religion to a fair few, saying anything about that is pure bull. However, global winratio is completely different.

After a tank has been released for a while (couple of months, when every noob and self-proclaimed pro and everything in between has had their hands on it), global win/loss of a specific tank over the average of all players means absolutely everything about the performance of a tank. The sample size is large enough to account for all the variables and the numbers come from a varied and large enough group to be very certain of the validity of the number. However, now is not the time when that's possible just yet, as not many people have had to endure the pleasure torment to play with this thing yet.

It is true that for almost all players win ratio means absolutely nothing due to many factors involved, but when talking about the global win rate of a specific tank over all players in the game, it says absolutely everything.

actually the global win rate often says more about the players than the tank and is an inherently unreliable way of judging performance.

Basically the more popular the tank the greater the proportion of average and blow average players which bring the tanks stats down relative to that played by less overall players but more good players.

the Russian heavy line has always been lower than they should be in global stats due to a large number of less able players using them as they are more forgiving, which possibly why they never get the nerfs that would otherwise balance them with other tanks in the tier groups

It would be better to compare the top 1000 as a rule then possibly the middle 1000 and the bottom 1000 as well.

the crusader is a very unforgiving tank that a lot of people will dislike, with only people like me keeping it, which risks giving it high stats, but it benefits from being in a tree that many will want to try so hopefully that will keep the stats down and it will not end up getting a nerf

Edited by Kyphe, 23 November 2012 - 03:56 PM.


Soliphuga #68 Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:34 PM

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halve the RPM cos when you fight Churchills or KV-1, even from side and 100% pen you only deal damage like in every other shot, the rest is just 0dmg. These low dmg british guns are very weak as faf as my experience goes. Not even mentioning howitzers which fire their shells in lower speed than thowing a stone by hand!!!! Compared to PzII/IV, you loose again because you don't ding anything while Pz does. It's really a paper tank. But A13 is even worse in it's class I'd say...

dysje #69 Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:41 PM

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View PostKyphe, on 23 November 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

actually the global win rate often says more about the players than the tank and is an inherently unreliable way of judging performance.

Basically the more popular the tank the greater the proportion of average and blow average players which bring the tanks stats down relative to that played by less overall players but more good players.

the Russian heavy line has always been lower than they should be in global stats due to a large number of less able players using them as they are more forgiving, which possibly why they never get the nerfs that would otherwise balance them with other tanks in the tier groups

It would be better to compare the top 1000 as a rule then possibly the middle 1000 and the bottom 1000 as well.

the crusader is a very unforgiving tank that a lot of people will dislike, with only people like me keeping it, which risks giving it high stats, but it benefits from being in a tree that many will want to try so hopefully that will keep the stats down and it will not end up getting a nerf

A global win rate is a win rate of all players combined driving the same tank. That says nothing about the players because the .. why the hell am I explaining this, if you can't understand this simple thing, it's no use to discuss any further. Your little story about the Russian tanks? Complete bull. Seriously, stop making up dumb stuff.

Saying that "the crusader is a very unforgiving tank" to me is just another way of saying it sucks balls cause it blows up at every turn while adding little to a battle unless the player goes out of his way to make Something happen. If every other tank can do it better, it's an underperforming tank.

Kyphe #70 Posted 24 November 2012 - 04:16 AM

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View Postdysje, on 23 November 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:



A global win rate is a win rate of all players combined driving the same tank. That says nothing about the players because the .. why the hell am I explaining this, if you can't understand this simple thing, it's no use to discuss any further. Your little story about the Russian tanks? Complete bull. Seriously, stop making up dumb stuff.


Obviously you don't have the first clue about statistics.

If you can't understand a simple thing, that a tank like the KV1 which is the most played tank on the EU server with 9884021 games, and one of the most owned tanks with 412030 owned  which is just under 50% of all T5 heavies owned, has a global winrate of 50.9% because despite being known as the king of T5 a big chunk of the people who play It are below average players who like it because its so easy to play compared to the rest of T5. these players cause the tanks win ratio to go down due to player failure not tank failure.

what would be nice to see is the average overall win rate for the players who own a particular tank, so it could be compared.

so for example if the average win rate for KV1 players is 45% and the average win rate for players who play the T1 is 51%, then you could factor in the proportionate player skill to the balance equation  

Simple thing my arse lol, its fucking pure inane stupidity the way the devs try and rationalize their so called balance.

Yes I agree maybe its best you stop talking now.

oh and last check the crusaders GWr was 51.60 based on 476368 battles

Edited by Kyphe, 24 November 2012 - 04:55 AM.


LGrum #71 Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:32 PM

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View Postdysje, on 23 November 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

A global win rate is a win rate of all players combined driving the same tank. That says nothing about the players because the .. why the hell am I explaining this, if you can't understand this simple thing, it's no use to discuss any further. Your little story about the Russian tanks? Complete bull. Seriously, stop making up dumb stuff.

Saying that "the crusader is a very unforgiving tank" to me is just another way of saying it sucks balls cause it blows up at every turn while adding little to a battle unless the player goes out of his way to make Something happen. If every other tank can do it better, it's an underperforming tank.

The Global win rate is too broad a statistic to interpret usefully for an individual.

It lumps in the player who just got their Crusader and found themselves the lowest ranked tank in the battle with the experienced who has switched to the British lines and is the highest tiered tank in a battle and everything inbetween. There's no way to extrapolate the global rate to understand how the tank will perform for a given player - we only have the anecdotal evidence and stats that individual players share.

If a given player can manage an overall win rate of - say-  60% (over a sufficiently large number of games for other factors such as quality of the team and the different maps and even starting positition on the map  to even out) then it is possible that another player could also achieve the same rate.

If another player can't reach the same rate, then its possible that they might just have two left thumbs, or are not yet skilled enough in the game with the appropiate playing style for that tank.

A tank that can reach a high win ratewith some players but not others is "unforgiving", a tank that never delivers a high win rate for anyone would be a rubbish tank.

dysje #72 Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:45 PM

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View PostLGrum, on 24 November 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

The Global win rate is too broad a statistic to interpret usefully for an individual.

It lumps in the player who just got their Crusader and found themselves the lowest ranked tank in the battle with the experienced who has switched to the British lines and is the highest tiered tank in a battle and everything inbetween. There's no way to extrapolate the global rate to understand how the tank will perform for a given player - we only have the anecdotal evidence and stats that individual players share.

If a given player can manage an overall win rate of - say-  60% (over a sufficiently large number of games for other factors such as quality of the team and the different maps and even starting positition on the map  to even out) then it is possible that another player could also achieve the same rate.

If another player can't reach the same rate, then its possible that they might just have two left thumbs, or are not yet skilled enough in the game with the appropiate playing style for that tank.

A tank that can reach a high win ratewith some players but not others is "unforgiving", a tank that never delivers a high win rate for anyone would be a rubbish tank.

I am not interpreting anything for any individual.

Just to note, global winrate is not per player but the total average of all players in the specific tanks on the entire server. And seeing you then talk about millions upon millions of battles and also millions of players it's enough to make a fair assessment of the performance of a vehicle.

You are basically saying what I'm saying too by stating;
A tank that can reach a high win ratewith some players but not others is "unforgiving", a tank that never delivers a high win rate for anyone would be a rubbish tank.

That's kind of the entire point I was trying to make. Thank you for explaining this, yet again. It shows that a certain person here clearly does not understand this.

If the large majority of the players will end up having trouble with this tank, thus leaving it with a lower global, (remember, global winrate is all players on the entire server...) winrate than 49%, there's something wrong with the tank. There is no way around that. I'm looking forward to the proper statistics because I'm very curious if I just suck at the tank or that it may indeed be a sub-par tank. Unfortunately right now the tank is too new to have a valid assessment and the stats aren't all there yet. In two or three months we'll see some valid results.

Kyphe #73 Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:54 PM

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Facepalm, no he is not agreeing with you.

look you cant use the average of each type of tank as a direct comparison with one another, as the average is based on different groups of people, in statistics to be usable the groups have to be comparable, preferably identical.

lets say you have two cars, one is mostly driven by over 50s women and the other driven buy under 25s males, the car driven by the older female group may appear to be more reliable, but you have to factor in the driving behavior of the two groups.

Lets say you have two tanks, both have the same global win ratio of 50%, one is owned globally by a made up figure of say just 20000 people, of which
40% have above 55% win ratio in all tanks,
30% have between 54% and 47% win ratio and
30% have bellow 47% win ratio.

so the average win ratio for all people who play this tank is above 50%, so the win ratio for this tank is bellow the average win ratio of the group playing this tank, which tells you this tank is tough to play even for good players.

Then the other tank is far more popular, having 100000 global users, but the win ratio of those users is different, just
20% have above 55% then
40% have 54 to 47% and
40% have bellow 47%  

so the average for all people who play this tank is bellow 50%, so the average for this tank is above the average win ratio of the people who play it, which tells you this tank is easy to play for bellow average players.

you have to remember that player win ratio is not even, many more players are bellow 50% than above, many of the bellow average players never progress past certain tanks which they do not like leaving predominantly good players to unlock the higher tiers of that tree.

This discrepancy creates groups of users which can not be directly compared in the simple manner used by the devs.

Another way of looking it it is this.

if a tank allows a majority of players of all abilities to play significantly better than their personal average WR then the tank is most likely OP and in need of a nerf.

If the tank causes most players to play bellow their average then the tank is UP and in need of a buff

If a tank allows some players to play better some to play worse and other to play on average then it is largely balanced.

Edited by Kyphe, 24 November 2012 - 08:03 PM.


Hairysteed #74 Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:16 AM

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The Crusader is a wrongly classified tier 4 medium, period!

It compares the best with other tier 4 mediums if it weren't for the arbitrary tier 5 HP pool:

PzIII has better mobility and armor but less firepower which makes it balanced against the Crusader
T-28 has about the same mobility, if not better power/weight ratio. Firepower and armor is identical to the Crusader. Bigger silhouette though.

And the Crusader isn't the only tank in the game with a screwed-up classification:
AMX-38 (Medium)
AMX-40 (Medium)
Valentine (Medium)
T30 (Heavy)
PzIIIA (Medium)
A-20 (debatable, as it's a prototype of a medium tank)

Edited by Hairysteed, 05 December 2012 - 10:56 AM.


GAB999 #75 Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:29 PM

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For me there is only one + on this tank and that its leading to cromwell. It's really like giving a tier 3 tank a buff with hp and thats it. .Its like A13 MK.2 but with worse and worse guns compared to the enemy u face.and it's getting also slower and slower. I was really looking forward for the last gun. But its useless,. unless your enemy is standing before you and not moving. Thats the only way u use the full dpm of the gun..27 ROF is simply too much for 2.3 s aiming time and the horrible 0,41 accuracy. In real battles u will be happy to achieve half of the dpm of that gun. even at closer ranges. My camo rating on the crew is like 70 % and i had some battles when the enemy could not see me and i did 1500 dmg. But seriously that's so lame and boring to camp in bushes and shoot with a horrible pee shooter.

XxXSpottedYouXxX #76 Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:40 PM

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Speed 44km ...

Nuff Said.

VVere #77 Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:52 PM

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This tank is a horrible piece of utter shit. It would be ok as a T4 tank, but for T5 its so fucking bad it's not even funny. I consider the M3 Lee to be a far better tank than this piece of shit.

Cocodog13 #78 Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:35 PM

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its a t4 tank end of.

Raeth #79 Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:08 PM

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I'd fed up of this tank, it can't do nothing well, you only have to look at it for to disintegrate or lose a track, using as cavalry won't get you any points, my churchill gained three times as much exp a game. I honestly don't see the point of this tank apart from forcing people to pay to get to the cromwell quicker.

theghostcat #80 Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:14 PM

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Only a handful of games in this far, but so far it seems like the tier 2 was the high point of the brit light line...I still haven't unlocked any of its guns yet, but I do have the turret...they tank just isn't fun with 80% crew...

Maybe it'll pick up once I've fully upgraded the thing.





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