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AMX 12t is an abysmal tank

amx 12t useless underpowered terrible awful unplayable

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Niffi21 #121 Posted 20 April 2013 - 09:16 PM

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This thing wasnt as bad as many write in this threat. It wasnt the big love for me either, but i got used to it. The biggest advantage of this tank is his high top speed, you can use in various situations. Another advantage is his cannon, when you can use it right. In other cases it will be a disadvantage. You can kill a tier VII-TD with this cannon and a bit luck.

The AMX 13 75 is a bit better to play till... yeah, till you recognize (or at least i recognized), that really every shot you get deals critical damage. At least, when you get hit into the sides (i lose my cannon tracks everytime i get hit into my side) or into the front (damaged motor with luck but often the motor is destroyed which means sometimes a nice fire). The only way, i dont get critical hits is: Showing the enemies my back. Something you usually dont do in any tank...

Greets Niffi

Edited by Niffi21, 22 April 2013 - 01:58 PM.


Schnurx #122 Posted 22 April 2013 - 09:08 AM

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View PostZeroBot, on 20 April 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

Just got the AMX 13 75 and I can't be disappointed more. It's just the same tank as 12t, with the horrible gun elevation, turning speed, acceleration a low ammo capacity.

....I can't even use the top gun until I upgrade the suspension, so I have to play with tier 5 gun in tier 10 matches. What a joke.

Nearly EVERY tank in the game is crap while stock. Did you try the VK 3001P stock? Oh, the horror!
You definitely *need* the suspension and the best engine. It drives much better than the 12t then.

Quote

Edit: You need only 43 000XP to research WZ-131 (tier 7) and it has much better 100mm gun (i.e. 250 alpha, 181 penetration)  than this turd.

You are comparing apples with oranges.
First, the *stock* (autoloader) gun of the WZ is even worse than the AMX13-75s stock gun.
Second: The top gun of the WZ has better damage and penetration. The advantages of the AMX are : better accuracy, much better aiming time and the great burst damage. You can fire 6 shots with 144 damage each in just 10 seconds, meaning you dish out 864 potential damage in 10 seconds.  The WZ gets just two shots out in the same time (barely), for 500 damage.
With 800hp for the WZ and 900hp for the AMX, you have a *much* better chance to waste him, than he has to waste you.

So, there's your job for the AMX13-75: WZ-131 killer ;)

Edited by Schnurx, 22 April 2013 - 09:09 AM.


Dant1st #123 Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:25 PM

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great tank

maybe you have useless mind to play at french vehicles   :trollface:

http://wotreplays.ru...download/843987

http://wotreplays.ru...download/840751

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AtsuNii #124 Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:12 PM

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View PostZeroBot, on 18 April 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Simply the worst light tank in the game and absolute garbage! It's so underpowered it makes me sick.

Low ammo capacity, horrible acceleration, horrific turning speed, rear-mounted turret, low gun elevation, no armor and the gun is garbage - poor accuracy on the move, slow aiming time (what happened with that tier 6 90mm gun from ELC?), etc. Matchmaking for this thing is so horrible that I can't play more than just one game, without getting serious headache. Also you need 67 000 XP to get to tier 7 AMX 13 75, which isn't a good light tank either. It even has the same gun as 12t. Are you kidding me? Not only that it's the most expensive light tank research tree in the game, the tanks are not even worth it.

Seriously, show me a person who enjoys playing this crapmobile. I love my ELC and T-50, but not this garbage. Selling it ASAP.

I loved my 12t, but i did sell it to get the 13 75 that is collecting dust atm due to other grinds. But i must agree that the T-50 and the ELC are very fun tanks (still got the ELC, aint leaving that little bugger behind). the 12t is in the early game not much fun. But survive and later on you can mop up lone tanks like i did with my last replay, at the end i mopped up an enemy IS-4

StormimOn #125 Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:22 PM

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After 112 battles in it, I have to admit that I really like it. I've just unlocked 13 75, now 140k XP to make it elite.

Like it was said before, the problem is not the tank but the player. You need to be carefull and patient, but it's worth it.
Trolling with the autoloader is fun too. Once a T29 750HP come to kill me, 6 shells in is flank/rear and bye bye ^^

Since I started french lights I really had a mountain of fun with ELC, and 12t is following the same way :smiles:

icyeagle92 #126 Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:44 AM

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I just can't find anything positive from 12t, let's compare T6 "scouts":

AMX 12t
traverse 38 deg/s, 250 hp, 60 km/h, gun 75mm, dmg 135 pen 144mm mag 6, reload 14s (27r/m), view range 380m

59-16
traverse 54 deg/s,430 hp, 60 km/h, gun 76mm, dmg 115 pen 85mm mag 5, reload 10s (45r/m), view range 360m

T21
traverse 60 deg/s, 560 hp, 56.3 km/h, gun 76mm, dmg 115 pen 128mm rate of fire 18.18 r/m, view range 390m

VK 2801
traverse 48 deg/s, 650 hp, 60 km/h, gun 75mm, dmg 110 pen 110mm rate of fire 16.22 r/m, view range 350m

Flanking sure is fun while you have poor engine with slow traverse, high battle tier means fast death and good luck circling around heavy with that combo you'll have to wish enemy is enough stupid to ignore you or have decent team. For me 12t has been only suffering and will be only suffering and let's not forget glorious nonexistent elevation of amx series!

Edited by icyeagle92, 30 April 2013 - 12:48 AM.


Kvaak #127 Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:28 AM

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Having rebought it during the special (I initially played through it back when it was t5) I have to say that this thing is nowhere as bad as I feared. It's not a tank I'd keep if it was elite, then again few are, so far only the A90 has deserved that honor and I had to sell it since I transferred its crews to the Lorraine and didn't want to start over with a 75% crew, I'm planning to buy it back at some point though.

It might not be spectacularly fast or maneuverable but it does have one crucial factor I miss some sort-of-scouts like the BatChat and Cromwell: A good camo value that's retained while moving. Combined with the decent if not spectacular view range and okay-ish top speed the 12t isn't a bad passive scout on maps like Prokhorovka where you can often win the game by sitting in one crucial bush, which is exactly what I did in my first game with the tier 6 12t.

The autoloader is quite decent allowing you to hurt the sides of almost every tank in the game, combined with the fast clip reload (that's how it feels after playing a couple of games with the BatChat anyway) the 12t isn't a threat to be ignored. After pelting an enemy's side with a couple of rounds your low HP acts as a bait since everyone thinks you're just a free kill allowing you to draw enemies into allies' field of fire (you're not moving alone, right? spotting is pointless if no-one can shoot).

The small size means you're also a pain to hit when facehugging, I just had a game where I just kept wriggling in front of a T-44 for almost a whole minute. He didn't manage to hit me even once. Sadly we got a cap victory and I didn't get to see if I could solo the T-44.

The poor acceleration, mediocre top speed and subpar maneuverability means you're not a great active scout on open maps like the T-50-2. Don't even try it. Find a nice bush, wait for binocs and camo net to kick in and watch your hilarious camo value do its job.

Of course when it comes to city maps like Himmelsdorf there isn't that much you can do, you could try popping a couple of rounds at the hill but don't even try to flank through the western side unless you can see on the minimap that no enemies are near.

I'm seeing this tank as a challenge, my t5 stats on it are definitely far from impressive so I'm looking forward to improving them at t6 where the 12t is arguably a lot weaker than it was before. Is the 12t weaker than other t6 scouts? Arguably yes, but from the couple of games I've played with it so far I'd say getting the exp for the Lorraine artillery shouldn't be too hard or painful. I'm not expecting to "carry" games with it since it lacks the speed, firepower and durability to make any game-changing moves. I just had a game on Cliff where I held two T25/2s and an IS behind the lighthouse. They couldn't move since I kept spotting them and the moment they tried to advance they'd get shot by our snipers whom they couldn't see. They couldn't shoot me since their gun elevation was just too poor and I compensated for my poor gun depression by hanging from the cliff at an extreme angle, the moment they strayed too far from the cliffside I'd shoot them. Eventually we lost that game due to our lemming train melting at columns 1-2 yet the top tier IS contributed absolutely nothing to the game and the T25/2s got sniped when they tried to advance. I'd say I did my job. Sometimes that just isn't enough.

Oh, and also, don't get caught. The 12t's poor speed and hit points do not leave room for mistakes. And whatever you do don't try to make a suicide rush for the artillery. In 99% of the cases you're contributing absolutely nothing to your team. And no, it's not fault of the artillery in your team they couldn't shoot the enemy artillery who you managed to light up for a whopping five seconds, they were probably busy trying to escape from suicide scouts just like you. Or maybe they just missed, if you've ever played artillery you know it happens no matter how well you aim.

I'm looking forward to this challenge in a weird way. You can't make mistakes but you have to take calculated risks to contribute to your team. The 12t most definitely isn't a tank for beginners.

The 12t definitely has its share of cons with few pros but I'd say the camo value combined with the decent view range alone are more than enough if you know what you're doing. The autoloader is a nice bonus.

Edited by Kvaak, 30 April 2013 - 01:42 AM.


StormimOn #128 Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:00 AM

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Nice summary Kvaak. And yes it's a sort of challenge :smiles:

As you said you can't "carry" games with it. There's some exceptions but it's right, you depend a lot on the team.
The gun is good, enough pen to get into side/rear of most tanks. Sometimes I would like to have some APCR, but it's really rare.

The use of an autoloader is fun too.
Making an enemy tank believe you just emptied your drum, then killing him because he wasn't carefull is fun.
Taking down a low hp tank with one drum and sometimes returning the game is fun.

I can't say all the games are fun. There's lot of frustration when you're doing well on you're side but you're team can't do a thing.
And it's the same when I make a really stupid move or a series of bad decisions, I want to smash my head with my keyboard sometimes :biggrin:
But overall I have fun with it, it's important, and I'm doing well in it I think.

12t is not a "rushing zergling" active scout, not enough acceleration and turning speed for that job, so you need to be carefull.
But it's a nice spotter. I can't always get in the bushes I want though, not fast enough (I miss my ELC for this) or the reworked map removed the spot (like El Halluf with 0.8.5, my favorite ELC spot is gone...).

And my best battle, XP wise, so far in video at the end. No need to rush when you're on the good side of the map and your team can do the job :happy:
I didn't have only 1 battle like this, and all the times it's the team that do the job because I was giving target (passive scout earlier, in the end you can be more active).
12t can't win a game in high tier battle (tier 7/8 is another story depending of the opportunities), but it can help if you try to stay alive until the end.
But you depend a lot on your team, which sometimes is really frustrating.

I'm also not saying this battle proves 12t is a great tank, else I would be a hypocrite.
It's just that you need to be carefull with this tank, it's less unforgiving than it's counterpart, but played well it's an OK tank in my opinion. So the tank isn't the problem, it's the player.
And I'm really really far from being a unicum, I'm a good player doing really stupid things from time to time (makes you think about when you're saying noobs in chat sometimes).

It's just that this tank is absolutely not user friendly, so bad players will say "this tank should be removed". But in the end all the french autoloaders are about "not user friendly tanks". The sooner you learn it the better it is. If you can't deal with it, move on !

P.S. : English isn't my native language, so I've a hard time saying what I want properly :smiles:


Edited by StormimOn, 30 April 2013 - 10:27 AM.


Kvaak #129 Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:07 AM

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View PostStormimOn, on 30 April 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Spoiler                     

That was a perfect example of how to utilize 12t's few strengths, although there are a couple of things I would've done differently: First I would've driven a bit closer to the forest's southern edge since sitting in the middle allows enemies to hide behind the bushes, if you have a med/light with a high camo value coming at your way you might not see it until it's right in your face (I once got proxy spotted in my A90 by a Lorraine 40t. Now that was humiliating.). Admittedly the 12t isn't the fastest scout out there so you risk getting caught by someone rushing straight into the forest, and like I said earlier, you can't make mistakes with the 12t. Second, I would've avoided shooting at all costs, your camo value is the only thing that keeps you alive. You can never know if there's a hidden light/med somewhere nearby who can see you just fine if you start shooting. The damage you deal at such a high tier battle is minuscule anyways and not shooting allows you to stay closer to the enemies and thus spot more effectively. The A90 was obviously an exception since you weren't exactly a high-priority target at the moment.

Overall that was really well played and shows how it's sometimes possible to "carry" games even with a piece of junk like the 12t. It pains me every time the team's only light starts to head for the western flank lighting up enemies no-one can shoot anyway. A light tank is pretty much the only thing that can safely move in the forest and allow the team to advance.

I see you already have some crew skills, I'm still stuck with around 85% crew with no secondaries. Oh well, sixth sense is vital for the A90 whereas chances are it won't often save you on the 12t since you're so slow and squishy. I wouldn't mind some extra camo though.

Edited by Kvaak, 30 April 2013 - 11:10 AM.


StormimOn #130 Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:12 AM

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Yeah I shouldn't have shoot M103, can't resist sometimes.
Same with ISU, shouldn't have shoot or shouldn't have stop and get behind him.
Did I say I made stupid moves sometimes ? Oh yeah I did :happy:

As for going a bit further in forest, on encounter mod I've had some bad surprises.
On standard battle it's OK, but too much bad surprises on encounter, for me at least. But I should give it a try once again after all.

In the end, the 2 magical bounces from the BatChat were just epic :biggrin:

View PostKvaak, on 30 April 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

I once got proxy spotted in my A90 by a Lorraine 40t. Now that was humiliating
I would have been surprised too, since Lorraine is a barn with no camo ^^
When we were at the 0.7.x versions, I once shooted a VK4502AusfB from 150 meters with my 704, 3 times in a row, without being spotted... This forest is magic...

View PostKvaak, on 30 April 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

I see you already have some crew skills, I'm still stuck with around 85% crew with no secondaries. Oh well, sixth sense is vital for the A90 whereas chances are it won't often save you on the 12t since you're so slow and squishy. I wouldn't mind some extra camo though.
I've farmed ELC like crazy when there was the x3 crew XP week end, 666 battles with it after all, and the gunner was on my Mle48. So they already had 3 skills before starting 12t.

Edited by StormimOn, 30 April 2013 - 11:32 AM.


Judqment8 #131 Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:26 PM

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Just had few matches with AMX 12t yesterday and today and I still love it. Absolutely my favorite tank. Then again thanks to today's braindead teams I got more grey hair:

http://mwreplays.com/newreplaysimg/bfdb477a042076f0534f35fb602969fa.png
Spoiler                     

http://mwreplays.com/newreplaysimg/222adb3bcc972f510bed35abb5938bad.png
Spoiler                     

Then again wins like this are great:
http://mwreplays.com/newreplaysimg/0aeab8e2b427f264dd0a4d232ce2ba98.png

PowJay #132 Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:32 AM

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If you overlook the poor gun depression and elevation- you can't ignore it, but just work with it, this is not a bad tank- for a medium!!

If you removed its Scout status, I would enjoy this tank a lot more than I do and I am enjoying it now.

Played 59, Won 32, Kills 33. 26104 damage, 442 damage per game. This is not exceptional, but well into the average.

Average XP 374, which is more than my VK36.01(H), JagdPzIV, Churchill VII, M4A3E2, SU-100, Jackson, T-34-85, and even my JagdPanther

I have just finished a game with Tier VI and VII, with two other light tanks,  and I came in 6th with damage at 1120HP and fifth with XP. I killed three enemies, only for relatively little HP although I wasn't just sitting there waiting for a kill to steal, I don't do that! I hit seven enemies in total.

I took two hits from an IS at point blank range and survived.

So, the tank may not be awesome, and it should NOT be MM'd as a scout, but it isn't that bad. I may- may- keep it, but I have got a way to go before it is elite, so we will see. I have no equipment on it yet and my crew are at 95%

Edited by PowJay, 11 May 2013 - 10:35 AM.


Kvaak #133 Posted 11 May 2013 - 12:12 PM

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It's tiny, it has the camo value of a light tank, it has good top speed, it has good view range for its tier, it has an autoloader capable of brutally punishing anyone who eats a whole clip - yet it's completely incapable of bouncing or eating hits since a lot of the tanks it encounters can drop it in 2 or 3 shots. Exactly how is it a "medium"  instead of a scout? It might not be as maneuverable as the T21 or 59-16 but its gun is arguably far superior and as long as you don't stop and get hampered by the sluggish acceleration/traverse you can scout just fine, especially passively.

Frankly, the more I play this thing the more I like it. I'd pick it over the T21 and 59-16 any day.

Edited by Kvaak, 11 May 2013 - 12:46 PM.


PowJay #134 Posted 11 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

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It has medium speed and acceleration and a flaming deadly gun more in keeping with a good medium tank than many LTs- some of which are using automatic weapons at mid-tiers.

It can be played more like a fast medium than a scout,  so that is why I- tongue firmly in cheek- called it a medium.

Lolpingu #135 Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:55 PM

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You know what, there is NOTHING that can justify this tank in it's current state.
It can NOT compete with other tanks of it's tier in terms of mobility.
The gun, with 6 rounds of low-pen, low-damage shells that takes very long to reload, is useless, because it forces you to expose yourself for too long - while the 90mm of the ELC AMX had some pretty terrible gun depression, it was just one shot (with some nice damage and pen) and then you're out of there. With this gun, you can't really fire once and then get out of there! that pathetic 100 damage hit won't change anything unless you are aiming at a near-death target. But if you start popping more shells, you are very likely going to get spotted as each shell makes you easier and easier to spot, which will ultimately kill you. This tank is NOT SUITABLE for hit and run tactics, and therefore, it is not suitable for flanking tactics.
This tank is in NO WAY an upgrade to the ELC AMX. It's less agile, it packs less firepower, it has a higher profile and it gets into higher tier matches. The only good thing I can say about this tank is that the overall 600 damage drum is enough to kill high-tier arty, that is, if you happen to get lucky enough to catch an arty all alone, as killing it will take ~3 shells, and standing still for like 6 seconds, which could mean your death.
You know what? I wouldn't hate this tank so much if WG let you use the 90mm gun with it. Not the 13 90's one with 6 shells, but the ELC AMX one. It would be pretty cool to use that gun in combination with the turret, and it would keep you useful as a hit and runner.  
Honestly, anyone who tries to convince themselves that the drum mechanism alone is worth this tank's horrible shortcomings is just in a terrible state of denial.

DixieBlitz #136 Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:16 PM

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don't think i will likely go down the french light line further but i've had a look at it.

the amx 12t does seem to be a downgrade from the elc amx, in terms of gun at least. then again the elc 90mm is what a tier 8 gun on a tier5?

Had a few battles where enemy amx 12t's have caused havoc .... cant be that bad a tank if driven well.

Lolpingu #137 Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:29 PM

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View PostDixieBlitz, on 09 June 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

don't think i will likely go down the french light line further but i've had a look at it.

the amx 12t does seem to be a downgrade from the elc amx, in terms of gun at least. then again the elc 90mm is what a tier 8 gun on a tier5?

Had a few battles where enemy amx 12t's have caused havoc .... cant be that bad a tank if driven well.
No tank in this game is a bad tank if driven well enough.
You have to understand that underpowered tanks (AKA tanks that cannot compete with their peer tiers and weight classes in terms of specifications) require a much higher skill input to be able to output a performance that matches the performance of other tanks of your peers, and so this brings about an imbalance problem where a player that is equally as skilled as you will yield a much higher performance simply because his tank's specifications are better. (gun/armor/mobility). When you see a lackluster tank performing really well on the field, you must remember that he could be performing much better if he were to use a different tank of the same tier and weight class.

xCaptainObviousx #138 Posted 10 June 2013 - 01:15 PM

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You get spoiled by the ELC nowadays.

Back when I grinded the french line you had to endure the AMX 12t as t5, with the 100 mm pen gun as top gun while facing tier 9. Back then it was also EVEN slower, had 5 degrees gun elevation (try aiming up while facing backwards, that was what you had in every direction), had 440 hp and much shorter view range.

The tier 6 12t is actually a pretty good light as long as you don't expect it to dodge shells or win 1v1 situations. It is however a great passive spotter and ambush support tank: wait for the enemy to engage a teammate before rushing to their aid and emptying your clip into his side.

Niffi21 #139 Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:51 PM

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Perhaps i repeat myself but my opinion: The AMX 12t is ok (its not an active Scout!). But who thinks that its too bad, shouldnt even think about the AMX 13 75. Self gun and nearly everything the same, only a bit more hp. But its a tier higher. So its much worse than the AMX 12t...

Greets Niffi

Edited by Niffi21, 10 June 2013 - 02:53 PM.


FIN_Hemi #140 Posted 13 June 2013 - 11:25 AM

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Best to use with binos and be passive. Or support attack with heavys like sting like a bee and go load on safe place. Even can use on later in match to take out enemy arty's. Don't attack front, hit on side or rear. I really like that tank. ELC is nice but this can use easier than ELC.





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