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suggestion: The Löwe Heavy Tank Line

LeichterLöwe SchwererLöwe VK70.01Löwe

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Thor_Hammerschlag #1 Posted 17 December 2012 - 10:43 PM

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The Löwe tank or Pz.Kpfw.Löwe aka Panzer VII is a german heavy tank design which was considered as a successor for the Tiger tanks. Interesting is however, that there were 6+ different designs (a smal overview) discussed in 1942. There are even 2 completely diffenent layouts. The information we got about these awesome and orignial heavies is easily enough to create 3 different tanks of them. And thats exactly what you are going to read here. Have fun!




(1) TVII Heavy Tank Leichter Löwe

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(top configuration shown here)

Overview:
This very different Löwe design is somewhat compeable to the VK4502B, the T9 of the Porsche-Line. The armor may sound weak, but the slopes ranging from 50-60+° on the upper plate greatly increase the values. Effective armor values are 150-180mm (upper plate) and 120mm (lower plate). Mobility is OK, but nothing special, because its still a huge tank with more than 70tons. Speed is compareable to the Löwe premuim tank.

Pros:
-great gun
-quite good frontal armor
-sidescraper

Cons:
- bad mobility
- turret in the back



Posted Image About guns:
This is a sniping machine with great ROF.
  • It starts with the 7,5cm KwK L70,
  • it can research the 7,5cm KwK L/100
  • and finally the get mighty 8,8cm KwK L/71.
Comparisons with its peers:



Media regarding heavy tank leichter Löwe

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(2) TVIII Heavy Tank Schwerer Löwe

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Overview:
This Löwe design is compareable to the one we know already, however, only compareable. The Löwe we got here can be upgraded with a Daimler Benz Schnellbootsmotor rated at 1000hp at 2400rpm. It also uses a slighty modified armor design, featureing 100mm compared to 80mm at the sides. This exellent sniper tank can choose from two different guns, but its guns are not as good as the Preimum Löwes 10,5 cm KwK46 L/70.

Armor is acceptable, with 186mm effective on the UFP which can thanks to the good side armor be angled greatly.

Pros:
-Awesome gun selection
-good sidearmor
-inpenable turret as we know it

Cons:
-huge
-extremely weak lower front plate



Posted Image About guns:

The Schwere Löwe starts with the 8,8cm KwK L/71.
Via the 8,8cm KwK L/71 you may research the 8,8 cm KwK 46 L/100 Ausf. L


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This is one of the accuratest guns in the game, featuring 0,3m accurancy at 100m.
Nor penetration or or aim time are great, but DPM really is great. It allows the Löwe to snipe from huge distances and deal decent 260dmg/shot.

After researching the better turret which mostly only increases view range, you can mount the Löwes historical gun.
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This is the 2nd reason why also the heavy tank line T8 Löwe has to be feared by higher tiers.
Note: This is NOT the Premium Löwes (KwK 46) gun. This gun has to stay unique, because this tank was bought for real loads of money.


Comparisons with its peers:

Media regarding heavy tank Schwerer Löwe

Löwe with 8,8cm KwK L/100  :Smile_glasses:
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(3) TIX Heavy Tank VK70.01 Löwe

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Overview:
On November the 1st 1941 the specifications of the new heavy tank "VK70.01" were laid out. It should feature 140mm frontalarmor and 100mm sidearmor. Later in 1942 during the devopment of the Tiger II a similiar armor design was considered. The version used here has about 7,74m hull length, this modificaiton was made 11th of May 1942 in order to mount 15 cm guns. The design here is not the one wanted by Hitler himself, this has to be pointed out here.

Armor is ok, but not compareable to the E-75 mostly. The upper front plate is 140/cos(55-5)=218mm. Lower front plate is balancewise 170/cos(30-5)=189mm. Turret is from the front mostly inpenable.


Pros:
- L/68 Ausf. B
- good allround turret armor
- mobility is quite ok thanks to 1200hp

Cons:
- frontal armor ok against TIX guns, bad against TX
- HUGE



Posted Imageabout guns:

The VK70.01 starts with the 8,8cm KwK L/71, this gun was considered for it while the development of the Tiger II.
Its upgradeable with both the 8,8cm KwK L/100 and the 10,5cm KwK45 L/70 known from the "Schwerer Löwe".

After researching the better turret, you can upgrade the VK70.01 with the

Posted Image

This is the largest gun available for the Löwe line. Alpha is great, however, the accurancy and penetration (HEAT shell, so no normalisation!) is bad and compensates that.
While being only usefull with gold rounds against most T10 frontalarmors, its completely devasting against lower tiers. Only the brave may mount this, Thats for sure.

For those who are looking for another deadly sniper gun, the VK70.01 is abled to mount a Ausf. B gun. This designation known from the E50 mighty tool will return for the 2nd 10,5cm gun... the

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Altough damage is low, the accurany is awesome, aimtime is good and penetartion as well.
Just as the other Ausf. B gun its dmg/shot was boosted to 390. Another special feature is the extremely high muzzle velocity which makes the gun even more accurate against moving targets.


Comparisons with its peers:

Media regarding heavy tank VK70.01 Löwe:
  • VK70.01 Löwe with 15cm KwK L/37Posted Image







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(4) TX Heavy Tank ???

soon ™





Regards, i hope you like it:) and tell me your opinion! i want further suggestions!


Sources:

Edited by Thor_Hammerschlag, 20 December 2012 - 08:29 PM.


sssu1 #2 Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:02 PM

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Nice job!

Don't know if these would be balanced, but at least they look amazing.

Dark_Meta_ #3 Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:04 PM

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Very nice. I would love to see those ingame. I love german tanks although they are a little bit up in this game. And i lov my Löwe and im pretty sure i would love that heavy line!
But as we all know wg would never add them  :Smile_sceptic:  They did not even add the promised secound TD-Line yet... :Smile_sad:

Well lets hope for the best ;)

Great Work on that anyway

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Thor_Hammerschlag #4 Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:06 PM

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View Postsssu1, on 17 December 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Nice job!

Don't know if these would be balanced, but at least they look amazing.

I would be glad to get some balance suggestions!
for example im unsure about 88 L100 rof or the balance at all of the 15cm L37.

Both are tricky to balance, because they are so unusual guns for its tiers.

One hint: there is one more Ausf. B gun planned lowe lovers surely know which one  :Smile_trollface-3:

Edited by Thor_Hammerschlag, 17 December 2012 - 11:09 PM.


vito_von_bang #5 Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:22 AM

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You ahve a 15 Kw.k L/40. 250 pen? 38 accuracy?

Iron_Funeral #6 Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:06 AM

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I think the tier VIII löwe's armor would be too thin, I mean, 120mm is kinda okish for a premium tank which is supposedly inferior to the normal tech-tree tanks, but IMHO it should be at least get 140mm, same goes for the tier IX variant, that one would be like the E-100 without the armor. I think going with 160mm would do the trick, it would still be inferior to the VKB/E-75 but you'd now actually have a chance to bounce 240+ pen sometimes. Going glasscannon would be nearly impossible with that amount of armor and the 15cm gun's penetration.

As a side note, 10,5cm gun is soo sexy that it should be added to both E-75 and VKB too :)

sssu1 #7 Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:56 AM

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View PostThor_Hammerschlag, on 17 December 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

I would be glad to get some balance suggestions!
for example im unsure about 88 L100 rof or the balance at all of the 15cm L37.

Both are tricky to balance, because they are so unusual guns for its tiers.

One hint: there is one more Ausf. B gun planned lowe lovers surely know which one  :Smile_trollface-3:

I will do the calculations for DPM when i have time, later today.

Thor_Hammerschlag #8 Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:09 AM

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View Postvito_von_bang, on 18 December 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

You ahve a 15 Kw.k L/40. 250 pen? 38 accuracy?

Unsure how to balance it, it would be just better than the L/38 of the E-100 especially because of the better pen.
To be honest i didnt consider it for the TX yet for that reason.


View PostIron_Funeral, on 18 December 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

I think the tier VIII löwe's armor would be too thin, I mean, 120mm is kinda okish for a premium tank which is supposedly inferior to the normal tech-tree tanks, but IMHO it should be at least get 140mm, same goes for the tier IX variant, that one would be like the E-100 without the armor. I think going with 160mm would do the trick, it would still be inferior to the VKB/E-75 but you'd now actually have a chance to bounce 240+ pen sometimes. Going glasscannon would be nearly impossible with that amount of armor and the 15cm gun's penetration.

As a side note, 10,5cm gun is soo sexy that it should be added to both E-75 and VKB too :)
The T8 löwe armor is fine, the slope on the front is better than the KT's and its sidearmor is better as well. Its front is worse than the KT, but its guns are better.

The armor is not great at T9, i know that, but its at least historically mostly correct. However, maybe it needs some buffing in order to balance it. Or great guns  :Smile_great: hard to say at the moment.



View Postsssu1, on 18 December 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

I will do the calculations for DPM when i have time, later today.

I would be glad if you could do that  :Smile_great:

Zarax999 #9 Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:15 AM

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Nice job but...

The 105 L/68 ausf B is a made up gun, isn't it?
E-50's ausf M gun has such a high penetration because it fires APCR by default and it's an end of the line tank so I'm afraid you're out of luck for that gun AND you cannot have an heavy gun better than a TD one at the same tier.

I'm afraid you'd have to settle for the "standard" 128mm L/55 or please choose from the available historical selection here: http://forum.worldof...-in-game-tanks/

It covers basically all german prototype guns, although I'd say you've got a hard task in balancing the Lowe for tier IX.

Thor_Hammerschlag #10 Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:26 AM

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View PostZarax999, on 18 December 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

Nice job but...

The 105 L/68 ausf B is a made up gun, isn't it?
E-50's ausf M gun has such a high penetration because it fires APCR by default and it's an end of the line tank so I'm afraid you're out of luck for that gun AND you cannot have an heavy gun better than a TD one at the same tier.

I'm afraid you'd have to settle for the "standard" 128mm L/55 or please choose from the available historical selection here: http://forum.worldof...-in-game-tanks/

It covers basically all german prototype guns, although I'd say you've got a hard task in balancing the Lowe for tier IX.

Its about the E50's gun, not the E50M's gun.
However E50M's gun is made up as well because its based on the E50's gun. However i already checked that gun selection but didnt find anything fitting.

These guns are fine and a enrichment for the ingame gun selection, because german high tier heavy tank guns are not the ones ppl are looking for.

Edited by Thor_Hammerschlag, 18 December 2012 - 09:30 AM.


Zarax999 #11 Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:34 AM

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E-50 uses the british L7 gun, you're basically just making up a new cannon.
Historical accuracy is a fundamental rule if you want an hope that your proposals are taken seriously.

Thor_Hammerschlag #12 Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:01 AM

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View PostZarax999, on 18 December 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

E-50 uses the british L7 gun, you're basically just making up a new cannon.
Historical accuracy is a fundamental rule if you want an hope that your proposals are taken seriously.

Never heared that before, the E50 gun is called "10,5 cm KwK 45 L/52 Ausf. B" which refers to the "10,5 cm KwK 45 L/52".
Do you have a source?

Zarax999 #13 Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:03 AM

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Overlord's blog when posting about the E-50 introduction said that the gun was basically a locally manifactured british L7.

Thor_Hammerschlag #14 Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:07 AM

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View PostZarax999, on 18 December 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Overlord's blog when posting about the E-50 introduction said that the gun was basically a locally manifactured british L7.

A british gun on a german war tank?

Zarax999 #15 Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:09 AM

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Silly, I know.
Why they just didn't use the 105 L/68 on the E-50 is unknown to me, I guess they just wanted an unique gun.

Abonimus #16 Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:48 AM

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Nice job m8!

Altho id love to see the ages old announced 2nd German TD line that was kinda forgotten first ...

Iron_Funeral #17 Posted 18 December 2012 - 02:19 PM

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View PostThor_Hammerschlag, on 18 December 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

The T8 löwe armor is fine, the slope on the front is better than the KT's and its sidearmor is better as well. Its front is worse than the KT, but its guns are better.

The armor is not great at T9, i know that, but its at least historically mostly correct. However, maybe it needs some buffing in order to balance it. Or great guns  :Smile_great: hard to say at the moment.


Well, in my experience the Löwe's front plates protect from the US 90mm M3 gun, with some angling the UFP can defelct ~175mm pen, but let's face it, that's very weak for tier VIII, especially as it's bigger and slower than the KT. The VKA has 120mm too but that tank has fairly small LFP and no retarded transmission in it's front, also it's very, very agile and quick. While your proposal might not be that bad if you compare it to the KT, you also should compare it to the T32 and especially against the IS-3. Both these vehicles are smaller, are more agile, BL-9 easily rivals any and all tier IX guns, IMHO it's the best gun you can mount on a tier VIII heavy. The effective frontal protection of the T32 is ~206mm and the IS-3's is ~222mm, the latter also boasts the legendary spaced armor that can and will absorb shells. If the Löwe's ufp is at 55° slope then it would have around ~217mm effective thickess, but it's LFP is much bigger than the KT's and if I remember correctly it's not that well sloped.
What I am getting at is; if you want to introduce a bigger and slower vehicle than the rest, then you have to palce much more armor on it than 120mm, as it's guns do not outclass any other in it's tier, sure it has 3mm more pen* than the KT's gun but that won't change a thing tbh, the premium Löwe's gun is so similar to the KT's gun that you really can't really tell the difference between them and that one has +9mm more pen. power.

*Sorry, it's actually +4mm  :Smile-hiding:

Edit2: Ok, maybe 140mm is an overkill because of the thicker side armor and thus better angling, but 120mm is too thin regardless, 130mm maybe? :P

Edited by Iron_Funeral, 18 December 2012 - 02:27 PM.


Thor_Hammerschlag #18 Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

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View PostZarax999, on 18 December 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Silly, I know.
Why they just didn't use the 105 L/68 on the E-50 is unknown to me, I guess they just wanted an unique gun.

Couldnt find any info. Also, its more fiction to put a british gun on a german tank of the ww2 era than putten different propellant charges in a existing guns ammo. Ausf. B guns are more ok from the historical side than this.



View PostIron_Funeral, on 18 December 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

Well, in my experience the Löwe's front plates protect from the US 90mm M3 gun, with some angling the UFP can defelct ~175mm pen, but let's face it, that's very weak for tier VIII, especially as it's bigger and slower than the KT. The VKA has 120mm too but that tank has fairly small LFP and no retarded transmission in it's front, also it's very, very agile and quick. While your proposal might not be that bad if you compare it to the KT, you also should compare it to the T32 and especially against the IS-3. Both these vehicles are smaller, are more agile, BL-9 easily rivals any and all tier IX guns, IMHO it's the best gun you can mount on a tier VIII heavy. The effective frontal protection of the T32 is ~206mm and the IS-3's is ~222mm, the latter also boasts the legendary spaced armor that can and will absorb shells. If the Löwe's ufp is at 55° slope then it would have around ~217mm effective thickess, but it's LFP is much bigger than the KT's and if I remember correctly it's not that well sloped.
What I am getting at is; if you want to introduce a bigger and slower vehicle than the rest, then you have to palce much more armor on it than 120mm, as it's guns do not outclass any other in it's tier, sure it has 3mm more pen* than the KT's gun but that won't change a thing tbh, the premium Löwe's gun is so similar to the KT's gun that you really can't really tell the difference between them and that one has +9mm more pen. power.

*Sorry, it's actually +4mm  :Smile-hiding:

Edit2: Ok, maybe 140mm is an overkill because of the thicker side armor and thus better angling, but 120mm is too thin regardless, 130mm maybe? :P

Its quite problematic to play around with armor values, i will try to not do it.
But to be honest i dont think its needed here. The hull is with 100mm sidearmor almost on KT level, and the turret is better than KT's thanks to the huge mantlet.

Engine comes with 1000hp, so mobility is also better than the premium lowes.
All in all we have a tank compareable to the KT, with weaker frontarmor better sidearmor, and the ability to go hulldown. (gun despression is also a nice balance value :P)

Ppl like KT, and they will like Schwerer Löwe im sure about that.


Any idea about the TX guys?  :Smile_great:

skipyzor #19 Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:36 PM

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Good Job!
I like them all.

vito_von_bang #20 Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:38 PM

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The natural succeeder is the Maus. The löwe gave bird to the Maus program, so maybe a early Maus prototype?




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