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Tips on how to hide as VK2801


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Colonel_Maxxe #1 Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:10 AM

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Hey!

I need some serious tactics on how to hide as a VK2801, as I always seem to get spotted and killed when trying to passive scout in the initial phase of the battle.

I run with binos, cammonet and ventilation and have only two crewmembers with 60% cammo, I chose to go with viewrange on commander and radiooperator, and l33t drivingskillz on the driver (perhaps a mistake, but shouldn't impact my hiding THAT much! being a light tank and all).

Usually I drive like crazy to midfield and hide in some large-ish shrubbery, preferably with a rockformation close by. Once there I don't move at all not even the gun, but still I keep getting spotted and instakilled (tier 8-10 matchmaking usually).

I used to have a good winrate on this tank earlier, but now it has plummeted down to 48% as it seems impossible to influence the battle because of getting destroyed before I can be really useful.

Please advice!

PriorityRiot #2 Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:14 AM

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dont shot

edit:

and look at the enemy lineup - are there tanks like Batshit, AMX13-75, T50-2 and so on that are as fast as u and faster, which maybe reach a nearby scout bush earlier ...

park behind the bush ~2m, not in the bush

mount coated optics - instead of binos. On your approach to your position you will get ~40m more viewrange, which should enable u to detect "nearby" enemies easier. Binos only work after 6 sec standing still

Edited by Folterknecht, 09 January 2013 - 01:20 AM.


Danki #3 Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:18 AM

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look at this : http://www.tazilon.net/maps.html

he play i think 14k games with Vk 2801

Edited by Danki, 09 January 2013 - 01:18 AM.


PriorityRiot #4 Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:29 AM

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Install the scout version of Oxmasters Icon countur mod - it displays the viewrange of every vehicle ingame ... .

Sir_Tornado #5 Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:56 AM

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VK2801 camo value is 16.5 stationary and 16.5 when moving. This drops to 3.44 when you shoot.

compared to the t50-2 or the m24 chaffee and elc amx it is the worst tier 5 scout in terms of camo value.

it is not a good passive scout.

as stated above.. load optics,vents, camo net and get camo skill, view range skills.


i personally play the vk2801 as a mobile scout. with a view to flanking and supporting.

use the drp gun and spam them with HE.

with normal HE rounds you can knock 300+ of the side of most tanks and with EAT you can set e100's on fire.


good luck.

Edited by JAFMANDADDY, 09 January 2013 - 02:01 AM.


Tazilon #6 Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:28 AM

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View PostJAFMANDADDY, on 09 January 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:


VK2801...

it is not a good passive scout.


HOGWASH!

Tazilon #7 Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:35 AM

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View PostColonel_Maxxe, on 09 January 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

Hey!

I need some serious tactics on how to hide as a VK2801, as I always seem to get spotted and killed when trying to passive scout in the initial phase of the battle.

I run with binos, cammonet and ventilation and have only two crewmembers with 60% cammo, I chose to go with viewrange on commander and radiooperator, and l33t drivingskillz on the driver (perhaps a mistake, but shouldn't impact my hiding THAT much! being a light tank and all).

Usually I drive like crazy to midfield and hide in some large-ish shrubbery, preferably with a rockformation close by. Once there I don't move at all not even the gun, but still I keep getting spotted and instakilled (tier 8-10 matchmaking usually).

I used to have a good winrate on this tank earlier, but now it has plummeted down to 48% as it seems impossible to influence the battle because of getting destroyed before I can be really useful.

Please advice!


Drop the camo net and binocs and get rammer and optics.  If you are well hidden the camo net won't help.  It helps when you are hiding in a non-100% concealed spot; something you should rarely do.

Make sure you are hidden.  Many people THINK they are hidden when they are not.  If any part of your tank except the gun barrel is exposed, you are NOT hidden.   The easy way to check is as soon as you stop, rotate your view around zoomed out and lok at your tank - is there a 100% complete outline?  If not, you aren't hidden.  Back up or adjust your position so you are.  

Don't worry about your gun barrel - it won't expose you.  Moving your turret won't either UNLESS it rotates in a position where it becomes uncovered.

Camo for your crew and Sixth Sense for your Commander should be your first skills - they help you more than do any others.

Go to the Tutorial/Guide forum and download my Guide - it explains a lot about the 2801.  And never let anyone tell you it can't passive scout - it does quite well at it.  Ignore the maps in the Guide, however - use the ones online at the link someone else  already posted.  There is almost a complete set now and they are the new maps,   I am shifting my guide online and am doing the maps first so the newest ones are there.

Edited by Tazilon, 09 January 2013 - 06:36 AM.


TNTGibbon #8 Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:22 AM

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Make it soon Tazilon, my luchs is getting the MM I expected and your guides have rather contributed to my survival. Good work sir, without going too fan boy on you.

Gibbon

Tazilon #9 Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:26 AM

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I have 5 to go for the complete set to be up.

Lancasthor #10 Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:55 AM

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Key thing to proper passive scouting is map knowledge. From the beginning of the match, you should have a clear vision where to rally and what enemies might pose a threat if you dont get there fast enough. Best example of this is the spot-rock(F7) in Steppes. Sometimes you just know that there will be a player driving to the same location form the other team.

Alinging correctly half-inside the bush is critical too. If you do this right, most enemies wont see you from a safe distance of 100m. All crewskills boost this number for your advantage even further.
About the skills, i'd suggest putting 6th Sense and Camo as the first row. Commander camo, situation awardness, offroad driving, snapshot and safe stowage as second. Third takes few hundred battles and could be changed from various skills to BIA when completed.

Camo-net and Binocs are kind of poor choises there. With proper skills in a proper scouting bush you are already well hidden as long as you keep down all trigger-happiness. Binocs do not give that much of a value because of five second delay and 445m max spotting range. Like everyone else suggests, a 0.8.2 VK has vents, optics and rammer, gold camopaints and 10.5gun w/ 7-15 HEAT shells equipped. This seems to be the optimal setup for all-around-awake scout-optimist player.

Personally i feel that you are way closer to a good start with serious patience and lurking mentality than most of the HEAT-spamming newcomers. There seems to be two kind of players with VK2801, and we are the ones who are still alive in later game. Cant over-emphatize the value of capable 2801 in endgame situations.

And ah yes' of course recommending Taz's guide as a useful scouting bible. It has all the knowledge for a really good cornerstone for improving to your own direction later.

Sir_Tornado #11 Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:51 AM

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View PostTazilon, on 09 January 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Drop the camo net and binocs and get rammer and optics.  If you are well hidden the camo net won't help.  It helps when you are hiding in a non-100% concealed spot; something you should rarely do.

Make sure you are hidden.  Many people THINK they are hidden when they are not.  If any part of your tank except the gun barrel is exposed, you are NOT hidden.   The easy way to check is as soon as you stop, rotate your view around zoomed out and lok at your tank - is there a 100% complete outline?  If not, you aren't hidden.  Back up or adjust your position so you are.  

Don't worry about your gun barrel - it won't expose you.  Moving your turret won't either UNLESS it rotates in a position where it becomes uncovered.

Camo for your crew and Sixth Sense for your Commander should be your first skills - they help you more than do any others.

Go to the Tutorial/Guide forum and download my Guide - it explains a lot about the 2801.  And never let anyone tell you it can't passive scout - it does quite well at it.  Ignore the maps in the Guide, however - use the ones online at the link someone else  already posted.  There is almost a complete set now and they are the new maps,   I am shifting my guide online and am doing the maps first so the newest ones are there.

Tazboy. No one mentioned the vk2801 not being able to passive scout. I said it was not good at it. Everything in this universe is relative. And relative to all the tier 5 scouts in this game the vk2801 is not a good passive scout due to camo values.

This is FACT not opinion.

Just because the vk2801 is your precious (Gollum?)

Does not make it a good passive scout.

Lancasthor #12 Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:25 AM

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View PostJAFMANDADDY, on 09 January 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Tazboy. No one mentioned the vk2801 not being able to passive scout. I said it was not good at it. Everything in this universe is relative. And relative to all the tier 5 scouts in this game the vk2801 is not a good passive scout due to camo values.

This is FACT not opinion.

Just because the vk2801 is your precious (Gollum?)

Does not make it a good passive scout.

This would be completely true if you'd try to passive scout without any bush cover. Fortunately situations where you try to stay hidden and getting detected from 75m instead of 49 are pretty rare. Any more or less cold nerved scout would take offensive action when the hostile aproaches inside those ranges. Only few maps offer places for sitting still while enemy lemmingtrain moves past you while being undetected. (Prokhoro west road and Cliffs far end field for example.) In way more usual situations enemy will eventually move within the 49m instaspot giving your "good passive scout" only three seconds of extra time hidden.

The thing what makes 2801 more difficult to use as passive is its size. Failing to completely hide your vehicle from certain expected direction of hostile eyes will cause unwelcomed surprises, specially if commander does not have 6th sense perk in action. Therefore role of passive scouting slightly disappears to semiactive contact-keeping rather quickly after few minutes of battle, as keeping track of possible enemy locations turns more difficult in middlegame. Using bush cover for larger arc of enemies is the difficult task in passive scouting for VK2801.

If we look at the lower tier vehicles, in my opinion the one with longest view range is the passive scout king. Camo values in a vehicle already hidden behind a bush are irrelevant when moving between +/- 3 margin. I wouldnt judge VK for being that much worse in passive role, it is slightly more difficult, but not worse.
Maybe my opinions are sligtly ill for having 3500+ battle old five-skill crewed help in it though. My VK seems to stay pretty well hidden when properly placed.

Sir_Tornado #13 Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:10 PM

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@Lancastor.  You know this tank well. What I wonder  is this.

Could you perform a scouting role better with another scout?

Shaslan #14 Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:08 PM

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Do you use gold ammo on your VK2801?

Lancasthor #15 Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:13 PM

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View PostJAFMANDADDY, on 09 January 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

@Lancastor.  You know this tank well. What I wonder  is this.

Could you perform a scouting role better with another scout?

I have some experience with all tier V scouts, and as for traditional scouting idea and tactics, Chaffee performs the best.
But, when it is time to apply situation awardness for maxium contribution, 2801 seems to find few more roles (like decapping base and scout intercepting) making it the most versatile and fun all-arounder from them.

View PostShaslan, on 09 January 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

Do you use gold ammo on your VK2801?
Right now, packing some HEAT with you is the gamechanger sport of VK2801.

My loadout varies from seven to ten ... some take 50/50.
Remember that HEAT needs to penetrate, so you should try using them at relatively close range against 90'degree soft side or rear.
Spamming over five HEAT shells in a game slowly turns your credit income below zero, unless you manage to sunk them all in a fat tier IX or X enemy. Pay attention, because all that fun comes with a price.

Colonel_Maxxe #16 Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:16 AM

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Thanks for all the help guys, much appreciated!

Already dropped the binos and the net, but not invested in the optics yet, the 500k is needed for a Jagdtiger :)

Tazilon #17 Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:21 AM

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View PostJAFMANDADDY, on 09 January 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Tazboy. No one mentioned the vk2801 not being able to passive scout. I said it was not good at it. Everything in this universe is relative. And relative to all the tier 5 scouts in this game the vk2801 is not a good passive scout due to camo values.

This is FACT not opinion.

Just because the vk2801 is your precious (Gollum?)

Does not make it a good passive scout.


But it IS a good Passive Scout.   Thinking another Scout is better at Passive Scouting does not make the 2801 a bad Passive Scout.  I could post comment after comment from enemy asking on chat how they were seen.  They were seen by me - in my VK-2801 - PASSIVE SCOUTING.

Watch this example and decide for yourself:

8,639 Damage Under Detection

Comment by the enemy near the end:  "How were you able to get those early shots?" (or something to that effect)  How?   Because my sucky-at-passive-scouting VK-2801 just lit your butts up the entire game!  

Spoiler                     

By the way, I titled it wrong,  It is West, not East...

Edited by Tazilon, 10 January 2013 - 02:23 AM.


Sir_Tornado #18 Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:53 AM

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View PostTazilon, on 10 January 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

But it IS a good Passive Scout.   Thinking another Scout is better at Passive Scouting does not make the 2801 a bad Passive Scout.  I could post comment after comment from enemy asking on chat how they were seen.  They were seen by me - in my VK-2801 - PASSIVE SCOUTING.

Watch this example and decide for yourself:

8,639 Damage Under Detection

Comment by the enemy near the end:  "How were you able to get those early shots?" (or something to that effect)  How?   Because my sucky-at-passive-scouting VK-2801 just lit your butts up the entire game!  

Spoiler                     

By the way, I titled it wrong,  It is West, not East...
I do not doubt you.

I simply point out that it is the worst passive scout at tier 5

refute it more.

WhistlerFI #19 Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:24 PM

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View PostJAFMANDADDY, on 10 January 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

I do not doubt you.

I simply point out that it is the worst passive scout at tier 5

refute it more.

I fully agree with Taz, VK28 is good passive scout (maybe chaffee is better, but still VK is good).

Had a one game in Malinovka (normal) where had IRL incident that needed my attention right after the battle started. Starting from south side decided to park my VK in to a bush around grid F5. Unfortunately that incident was longer than anticipated and when I was able to get back to computer, that match was over.

However I got awarded by patrol duty and got most of the enemy team spotted (did survive battle, no damage received/done). Afterwards I watched the reply and noticed a very close call as Tiger P was approaching through the marshes. He was 62 m from me when our team killed him :) Still nobody spotted me.

Several times I have been passive scouting in the begining of the game with good results in VK. Of course it is bit harder to hide that Chaffee/T-50-2. But it does not make it "not good".

Sir_Tornado #20 Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:05 PM

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Given that 3 of you stand by the vk2801 so much is it possible for us to do some maths where we compare the camo value vs view range of

chaffee, t50-2, ELC, vk2801?

I know the camo values and the view ranges..I will see what I can find.




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