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M7 light/medium tank

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Killtech #1 Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:01 AM

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now that the new american branch of lights was added in 0.8.2 i wonder whether the m7 shouldn't be reclassified to a light tank. on the one hand this doesn't break the continuity of the branch from m5(light) -> m7 (medium) -> t21 (light) and on the other the play style is actually quite similar to that of t21 - much more then most other american meds. the additional camo bonus might come in very handy to enable the tank to be a much better scout/supporter but perhaps requires to be balanced with a slightly higher MM. finally from what i can dig up from google this tank was commissioned as a successor for M5 steward light tank and it was planed as a light although only the weight made it closer to a medium in the end. however the type 97 chi-ha (chinese tier 3 light) is historically classified as a medium although it is a light tank in WoT thus there is a precedence that would allow to do the same for the m7.

i also wonder what others think about this vehicle as of how it is right now. is it considered a good, average or a bad tank? what are win rate statistics saying about it?
personally i think it's good in its own way. certainly not on par with meds or heavies of its tier in an one on one encounter but it's like a scout with a decent gun and normal MM but without a camo bonus. if it got the bonus of a light it would be just perfect.

EDIT:
here's the link to the topic in suggestions forum. perhaps it has more chances to get official attention there:
http://forum.worldof...o-a-light-tank/

Edited by Killtech, 18 March 2013 - 01:47 PM.


theSoon #2 Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:27 AM

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its a "suprise brawler". love circlin with it.

chaos7 #3 Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:41 AM

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The guns damage output is simply ridiculous when you can apply it completely. Not everyone's cup of tea probably, but I personally quite enjoyed it.

Kyono #4 Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:14 AM

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To be honest I always thought it WAS a light tank. It was only today when discussing it on Merlanthous' stream that I was alerted to my misclassification of the M7. Why a medium tank sits in the middle of a light tank line is beyond me.

I used to hate this tank as I used to play it as a medium. Never used its speed to its advantage but now that I treat it as a light I'm doing crazy good with it. It's fine where it is if you ask me.

Killtech #5 Posted 07 February 2013 - 05:54 PM

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View PosttheSoon, on 21 January 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

its a "suprise brawler". love circlin with it.

View Postchaos7, on 21 January 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

The guns damage output is simply ridiculous when you can apply it completely. Not everyone's cup of tea probably, but I personally quite enjoyed it.
yeah, its gun is like that of any higher tier lights: a fast firing highly capable gun. this tank shares far more traits with WoT lights then it does with any meds.
i didn't say i don't enjoy it (because i find it fun) but i say it makes more sense to reclass it as a light - for multiple reasons as stated in the OP. true, that might be a buff so it might require a slight change to its MM, yet not necessarily.

Alexeiy #6 Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:59 PM

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View PostKilltech, on 21 January 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

i also wonder what others think about this vehicle as of how it is right now. is it considered a good, average or a bad tank? what are win rate statistics saying about it?
personally i think it's good in its own way. certainly not on par with meds or heavies of its tier in an one on one encounter but it's like a scout with a decent gun and normal MM but without a camo bonus. if it got the bonus of a light it would be just perfect.

I find it OP, it's like a T4,5 ligth tank, with the MM of a T5 med. Giving it the Camo on the move, wouldn't be such a great improvment, because the M7 has decent Camo on the move (around 10% like the russian meds, without Camoskill, but viewrange makes up for the "low" camovalue). Last time I checked some statistics on this tank, it was underperforming and the reputation isn't that great because it should be played as ligth tank and probably 90% of the player are bad/horrible at playing ligth tanks.

riv8 #7 Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:22 PM

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M7 is a great tank and i'm having lots of fun with it...but there is a one tiny problem - how to stay alive in this thing?!
I ask you M7 drivers - what is your survival rate in this tank?

Edited by riv8, 22 February 2013 - 08:22 PM.


Killtech #8 Posted 24 February 2013 - 02:35 AM

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View PostAlexeiy, on 07 February 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

I find it OP, it's like a T4,5 ligth tank, with the MM of a T5 med. Giving it the Camo on the move, wouldn't be such a great improvment, because the M7 has decent Camo on the move (around 10% like the russian meds, without Camoskill, but viewrange makes up for the "low" camovalue). Last time I checked some statistics on this tank, it was underperforming and the reputation isn't that great because it should be played as ligth tank and probably 90% of the player are bad/horrible at playing ligth tanks.
i doubt it would become OP. its too slow and has a comparatively large silhouette for an active scout. the large signature (for a light) already enough camo penalty. so the bonus will have only a minor effect - as you say it yourself. you also need to consider that the tanks its matched against already have decent view range unlike T4 tanks. and besides most T5 lights are currently rather T6 vehicles (for example by its stats chaffe is better then T21) and many will move one tier up in the coming patches. those that won't already have the same match maker as T5 meds, i.e. the crusader.

if the tank is underperforming it's because it's no match in combat to such things like derp M4, KV-1 and many others that simply have a greater impact on the game (if played right). what it lacks in damage potential (low penetration vs T6, T7 tanks) it cannot compensate though spotting damage. and once detected in a scouting position its survivability isn't good enough because lack of agility.

nevertheless i won't deny it's a good tank.


View Postriv8, on 22 February 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

M7 is a great tank and i'm having lots of fun with it...but there is a one tiny problem - how to stay alive in this thing?!
I ask you M7 drivers - what is your survival rate in this tank?
my survivability is at 21% after 192 battles. not sure if that is good for the M7.
basic scout rules for scouts help.
0. don't rush ahead. fast tank doesn't mean you must be the first on the front line. but if you do so make sure to scout fast and get out even faster before all guns are pointed at you.
1. don't drive ahead if there is no firepower behind you to use your spotted info. so always look where your team needs a spotter.
2. don't play too much an active scout. the vehicle lacks camo, speed and agility for it.
3. think twice before shooting. you lose a lot of camo and bushes around you become transparent for enemies.
4. if you shoot or flank make sure your target is distracted by someone else.
5. be aware where which the enemies are - especially those that aren't visible. you have to memorize spotting info so you get an idea how many guns may be pointed at you once you come out of hiding to move ahead or shoot.
6. whereever you go, try to have an escape route if you spot more then you can handle.

Edited by Killtech, 24 February 2013 - 02:48 AM.


Harim #9 Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:41 PM

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bullshit tank, no firepower, no armor, average to good speed, just a typical hard to grind over it tank

Dex022 #10 Posted 27 February 2013 - 07:38 PM

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Tank is great. 38 battles and researched T21. Max exp around 2200 with prem. Just love circling slow kv1 and pz4 derpers or sidehug td's.In this tank you can make life miserable for most slow tanks you encounter. I used 75% crew from start, only radio man and loader were 80 something % because i retrained them from other tank for credits.

Edited by Dex022, 27 February 2013 - 08:42 PM.


Harim #11 Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:48 PM

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This is simply one of the main bullshit tanks in game, how I hate this tank, I can't say it suitable words, real tank scum...

Lagpower #12 Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:54 PM

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In my opinion only M3 Lee is worse :} I hate it, battles are like nightmares but I hope T21 will be better...

AndyScouser #13 Posted 01 March 2013 - 03:52 PM

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im quite enjoying the M7 funnily enough, its made from cadbury flake's, but whilst it lives, quite fun.

Vedrokos #14 Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:28 AM

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so far this is 2nd worse than in american tech tree after m3 lee i believe, damn its going to be a hard grind :Smile_sceptic:
stuart was much more fun than this tank, i dont know how am i gonna resist this tank for 28k exp  :facepalmic:

Dewirix #15 Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:17 AM

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Rebought this yesterday, having first played it in my very early WoT career. It was my first tier 5 tank, and I was very bad in it (41.7% winrate after 228 battles!).

First (229th?) impressions of it weren't good. In my earlier meeting with it, I had thought it was a good medium and that I was just not having the luck. This time round, not so much.

The bad points are as follows:
  • Poor gun selection: The 6lb'er fires fast, but has poor alpha damage and penetration compared to the M1A1 the M4 mounts. All other guns are just rubbish
  • No armour: But hey, it's a US medium, so I wasn't expecting any, but even the turret + mantlet is paper, not that it matters, because
  • Poor gun depression: Two-thirds that of the M4, making fighting on uneven terrain a chore rather than (as is typical with US mediums) a strong point
On the other hand:
  • Fast: 60km/h top speed, which you will reach on level ground
  • Fairly manouevrable: 18.92 hp/t gives it a pretty decent power-weight ratio. Not as good as the PzIII/IV, but better than the M4 or T-34
  • Good DPS: If you can flank a target and hit weaker armour, then you can do some pretty hefty damage over time
  • Excellent view range: 380m, the highest of all the tier 5 mediums
And then we have the 'Meh'
  • Camouflage: Exactly the same as a T-34 and considerably worse on the move than the PzIII/IV or PzIV (10 versus 13 and 13.75 respectively)
  • Hitpoints: 440 with the top turret, about average for the tier
However, rather than play it as a medium this time around, I've been playing it as a scout, to reasonable effect. Played 20 games on Sunday and won 15 of them, although it would be fair to say that my team carried me through a fair few. I've also been abusing premium ammo somewhat too much, which gets expensive given how fast the 6lb'er fires.

All in all, I'd say that reclassifying it as a light would be a fair move. According to NoobMeter's OP rating, the M7 is the worst-performing tier 5 medium. WoT News gives the 4-week win rate as 48.89% (47.9% lifetime). This compares poorly with the M4 (51.52% 4 week, 50.21% lifetime) and the PzIV (49.01% 4 week, 49.1% lifetime), although surprisingly it's on a par with the T-34 and the PzIII/IV.

Giving it 15 camo on the move and the same MM as the Crusader (i.e. keep the tier 5 medium MM) wouldn't be unbalancing in my opinion.

Slyspy #16 Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:18 PM

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View PostDewirix, on 18 March 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

Giving it 15 camo on the move and the same MM as the Crusader (i.e. keep the tier 5 medium MM) wouldn't be unbalancing in my opinion.

Except that then it basically is a faster Crusader. Unless you mean to keep the medium tank designation?

Dewirix #17 Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:26 PM

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View PostSlyspy, on 18 March 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Except that then it basically is a faster Crusader. Unless you mean to keep the medium tank designation?

No, I was arguing for dropping the M7 down to light tank.

The Crusader has -12 degrees gun depression, which means it can hull down far better than the M7 can (the latter only has -8). The Crusaders also got slightly higher pen (110 vs 105), better accuracy (0.41 vs 0.43) and a better power to weight ratio.

I take your point about not wanting to make all tanks too samey, but the WoT wiki article on the Crusader already explicitly compares it to the M7. Furthermore, given that the Chinese line has some extremely similar tanks it's not like there's no precedent.

All-in-all, I wouldn't be heartbroken if WG do nothing with the M7. I'm already 8k towards the T21, so odds are I'll be long gone before anything happens to it. That said, I do think that moving it to light tank status makes sense.

Killtech #18 Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:46 PM

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i add this link to the suggestions forum. perhaps this isszue might get some more attention from officials if discussed there:
http://forum.worldof...o-a-light-tank/