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Clan Wars feedback "What's not working?"


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Ectar #1 Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:03 PM

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Hello guys,

As we have recently announced, Clan Wars is currently frozen to address some issues that have came to light after the recent update,namely:
  • Improvements and corrections have been made to the algorithm used to calculate the probability of a riot.
  • A fix has been made for when chips disappear from the map when a member leaves the clan.
  • Fixes for several other bugs related to the introduction of the Riot feature, and Clan Wars in general.
Sadly we do not have an estimate for when Clan Wars will be back up and running but I can assure you this is something that is a high priority for us. We understand that Clans Wars is an important part of the game for many players, it's what a lot of players work towards when progressing up through the tech trees and it adds a level of co-operated and tactical gameplay that just isn't possible via normal random battles.

We're working on adding new features to generate interest for new and existing players, along with encouraging political negotiations/discussions between clans. We're also looking to fix known issues and remove any reported bugs. Sadly sometimes fixing one thing or adding something new can lead to something else unexpected happening (or breaking). We appreciate that when this happens it can be frustrating which is why we want to make it clear that delivering a fully working and fun Clan Wars system is something we're committed to delivering.

We're creating this thread in the Clan Section to ask Clan players specifically "What's not working?". We're also asking you directly for suggestions and feedback for how to improve Clan Wars.

Ideally, we'd like the Clan Leader or Diplomats to post here so we don't have multiple people bringing up the same topic. However that isn't required.  Please please, before you unleash with a torrent of rage, stop and think about what you're saying and how it can be said better.  This isn't somewhere for players to rage and whine about stuff. We're looking for constructive feedback and I'd like to ask Clan Leaders to help control any of their more outspoken members because quite simply, this topic shouldn't need to be heavily moderated.

If you're reporting an error, please try to use the following template

1 - Clan name
2 - When the problem happen
3 - Description of the problem
4 - Suggestion on how to fix it or improve it


The reason for the last part is because, I (Ectar) always believe that if you're going to say something is broken or wrong, you should have 2 solutions or suggestions ready regarding how to fix it or improve it. Saying "It's broke" or "It sucks" for example is no help. It doesn't add anything to the conversation. Saying "This isn't working right because xxxxxxx, to improve it I'd suggest xxxxxx or xxxxxxx. It might work even better if you did it like this xxxxxxxx" Is great. It gives us something to work on, shows you've thought about what you want to say, and shows you're wanting to help improve things.

You can see immediately the difference in a post that's just complaining, and a post that's looking to get things done.

As should be expected, don't flame in this thread, don't spam, don't try to provoke or insult other clans.


Thanks for your time and we look forward to reviewing the feedback.

grzech_p #2 Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:27 PM

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1. [-PKW-]
2. After introduction of Riots
3. Province "Southeastern Tamanrasset" was not visible on a global map as a "province with riot going on" (no riot icon) but it was possible to apply for riot landing. As it was hiden riot province it was also not possible to attack it from neighbour provinces. For few days, becouse of permanent hidden riot, owner of the province was totaly safe from attacks. And province was in hidden Riot everyday.
4. Check in the logs why this provice went into this strange state and fix the algorithm.

FireflyDivision #3 Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:41 PM

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Quote

We're also asking you directly for suggestions and feedback for how to improve Clan Wars.

It would be very nice to have the ability to sort tanks by e.g. the name or class in the window where you compose the team for the CW battle. That way, the FCs will have a good overview of what's already in the team and what's missing.

Sincerely,
KIA Deputy Commander

nobalistic #4 Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

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View PostFireflyDivision, on 24 January 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

It would be very nice to have the ability to sort tanks by e.g. the name or class in the window where you compose the team for the CW battle. That way, the FCs will have a good overview of what's already in the team and what's missing.

It will be great to compose team.

CitizenSoldier #5 Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

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Clan/Reporter: [KGS] Kampfgruppe Sparta / CitizenSoldier, Diplomat & Field Commander

When Occurred: Since introduction of Rioting.

Problem: A province under attack will not riot. This can be exploited by Alliances to significantly mitigate the risk of rebellions by cross attacking with even a single chip. All these attacks then lock chips, and things become very static.

Possible solution: Change attacks so that they don't stop riots. Existing attackers are moved to the Landing tournament and limited to the chips they attacked with. This would deter single chip fake assaults, but still allow strategic support to alliance members.

CitizenSoldier #6 Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:53 PM

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Clan/Reporter: [KGS] Kampfgruppe Sparta / CitizenSoldier, Diplomat & Field Commander

When Occurred: Since introduction of Rioting.

Problem: Rioting probabilities change in mysterious ways.

Possible Solution: Provide some simple feedback as to why a rioting probability changed. E.g. "Successful Defence", "Ransacked", "Neighbour Rebelled".

Provide detailed documentation for the rioting mechanics.

Clan/Reporter: [KGS] Kampfgruppe Sparta / CitizenSoldier, Diplomat & Field Commander

When Occurred: Since introduction of Rioting, last observed 23 Jan in "Wadi Fira"

Problem: Clans can still apply for Riot Landing after Prime Time (but before the final). This causes the rioting to unconditionally continue on the following day.

Possible Solution: Applications for landing are rejected on and after Prime Time.

Clan/Reporter: [KGS] Kampfgruppe Sparta / CitizenSoldier, Diplomat & Field Commander

When Occurred: Always.

Problem: Multiple simultaneous battles are hard to organize. To a large extent, this is fine, as stressing another clan with multiple attacks is a valid strategy. Never-the-less, some simple tools would help.

Possible Solution: In the Special Battles dialog, provide a message area per battle. The message can be created edited by Commander, 2IC or Field Commader. Messages migth be "Alpha Team fight this battle", "Bravo Team fights this battle" etc. The same message should then be repeated (and editable) from the individual battle mustering windows.
Provide a means to see more that one battle mustering dialog at a time.

Special Battles only appear about 15 minutes before the games starts. Players need to leave the game to see the entire list of scheduled battles. It would be use to show all scheduled battles in the Special Battles dialog (but greyed down, or otherwise marked as "No final schedule yet".



Avoid multiple posts 1 after another, please use EDIT function instead
/BigBadVuk

ThaElf #7 Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:00 PM

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As a rather vague point:

When implementing something to very high interest content everything should be tested by minitest in safe enviromental. This should be possible with a database of one days input of ship movement battle results etc. Monitoring any of the three map continent should provide enough information on what is going wrong and what is working where to improve.

At the moment many ideas are tried without proper implementation and just tried straight from the coders desk. A proper testing should incur without implementation to live servers. This is what every company should do, but seems there is part of here which is not done. Even small group acting as independent 'clans' with chips and total time control for this testing enviroment would be enough. For in 2-3 hours of testing every possible move can be tested, every result seen. And having small group acting like this the testing done can be summed up very fast and information exchange and possible solution gathered fast. If after this initial test nothing seems wrong the patch can be implemented, but if something is leaked after that in code, there probably is something wrong in the code, badly thus negating whole work progress until fixed.

Instead of just coding, coders and developers which sum up the ideas should run their ideas together so even simplest coder could see the results of its coding in real time after finishing.

This is what is needed for proper implementations and it does not take longer than a day per multiple test runs if done right.

Gnomus #8 Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:19 PM

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First one question about these new changes:
Should pillaged areas be somehow visible on map? I haven't seen any indicator to show some area as pillaged, and I think someone would have pillaged something by this day. If it's not shown (as I presume), I can imagine joy of some smaller clan reaching some high income area like Brandenburg, enjoy victory over defender and then start to wonder where their gold is only to realise they still need to hold that area several days before getting anything out of it.

Then two major "bugs" that are mainly part of clan things, but are important to CW also.
When we can get clan log showing at minimum:
a) Which players have left the clan (and possibly joined, but then at least some official knows about it, so it's not as critical).
b) Where Clans money has gone. This to make sure now one "steals" money, but also to check if rewards of certain battles have been paid or not.

Having proper log that shows old CW battles with their results wouldn't hurt either, but logs for members and gold transactions should have been here over a year ago. They can't be so hard to code, and they are basic tools for clan management.

HARK0NEN #9 Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:48 PM

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this one is not directly about CW, but has influence on it
one simple sugestion, pls add CW style option to training rooms, so you cant see opponent team till is scouted in battle. Teams could only see nick and ready status in training room. this would provide more effective training for all clans. Company battles are not sufficient training, cause you can see enemy roster, for example if enemy has 15 T10 meds, you know for sure that they will rush...

Kantti #10 Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:45 PM

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Suggestion:

Clans on map should be able to move chips to rioting neighbouring provinces to participate in that tournament. This would give them ability to try to quell the riot on friendly territory or at least would give option to have some tournament play every now and then even if being on-map.

Coruin #11 Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:11 PM

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1. [EPIC]
2.After last patch changes to CW
3. Revolt at province. Current system is so stupid, bugged and easy to exploit. First: random and broken algorithm to decide if province will revolt. Second: closing borders and making revolt act as landing, efectively blocking the map for one day. Third: time when actual revolt calculation is done and the exploit which blocks that for one day (false one token attacks).
4. For first: make please this chance actualy be statisticaly true, for example, 10% chance means that province can't have riot for at least 9 days but no more than 20 consecutively days.
For second: do not close borders, rework the mechanic so neighbours still be able to attack and encounter, even that means they should participate in the tornament. Or make the revolting province a tournament for all clans which borders, including the owner. It's extremly stupid and out of logic riot province to act as landing (or most proper said, drop zone). If province is one of those bordering the map, let it counts as landing, if you wish so desperately to make more landings available.
For third: make that turn when revolt chance is calculated visible to the owner, and even if province is attacked, the calculation still counts, and all tokens attacking are returned to the reserve of their owner if the province get riot.

Edited by Coruin, 24 January 2013 - 10:15 PM.


Rata_Bum #12 Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:01 AM

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sorry for my bad english.

Why you must close the worldmap.
Let us play!

remove the 0.8.3 changes and let us play with the 0.8.2 worldmap configuration.
you can make the fixes in background. Testserver or something else.

thats unskilled

Kilo_India_Alpha #13 Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:42 PM

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You could hard cap the max riot chance to maybe something like 25%. This would reduce the amount of LZs to a more realistic level. It looks quite strange if half of the world map is rioting every day.

Moreover tell us how riot probability is calculated. I would like to see a formula like:

x[%] = (y+z)/(n/10)

x is the chance of riot.
y is a base riot chance for a given province, maybe 0 to 15
z are modifiers for the province. Like looting the province (+25) or losing a CW battle (+2) or winning one (-2) in the last week.
n is the number of chips in the given province

Of course you could refine this formula. A province with an average base riot chance of 7.5 and 15 chips would create a LZ every 20 days.
You get the amount of new LZs by multiplying the riot chance with the number of provinces on world map. If this number is too small/big just increase/decrease y.

If you want it more dynamic you can add modifiers for long term province ownerships by increasing or decreasing the riot chance by a certain amount.  Last but not least you also could make the riot chance dependent on the income of the province by  a factor of i/a. Here i is the income of a certain province and a is either a fixed value or maybe even the average province income on world map. Just multiply the result in the formula above.

This makes the feature of riots more predictable for the defender and would solve the riot spam.


Than you can only stop riots by increasing the number of chips on a province instead of doing fake attacks.

Edited by Kilo_India_Alpha, 25 January 2013 - 12:45 PM.


Paaranoja #14 Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:27 PM

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1. KAZNA
---
Riot chances

Chances for province with full stack of chips + hq should be zero (regardless of tax rate), pillaged empty province with pillaged, conquered neighbors must rebel, chance= 100% The rest should be in between.  The biggest modifier should be number of chips, as they represent garrisoned troops, and people are reluctant to rebel against trained army (much like rome total war)

--------
Attacking rebelling province

In order to stop the exploit, make the rebelling province still open to attack, but battle with best landing clan should be played after the battle for the ownership between two clans. This will force attackers to think if they want to fight first the owners and than if they win, the rebellion.

Edited by Paaranoja, 25 January 2013 - 01:29 PM.


Stamhus #15 Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:47 PM

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1. _DOW_
Riot.
Province with full stack of chips, not pillaged and HQ should be 0%. Province whit no chips, naighboring province lost and pillaged should be 100%.
Make rebelling province open for attacks from neighboring provinces, but let the attackers partisapate in the landig turnament or as Paaranoja sugest "make the rebelling province still open to attack, but battle with best landing clan should be played after the battle for the ownership between two clans. This will force attackers to think if they want to fight first the owners and than if they win, the rebellion."
Since the chance of riot increases if the province you conquer has been owned for more then 7 dayes, the chance of riot in any of your own provinces owned for more then 7 dayes should decrease.
The turn that a province riot should be a fixed one. for example 10 houers before prime time.
I would like to say that the riot feature is a great idea and makes it posibel for more clan´s to get on global map (my own incluted) and harder for big alliances to control big areas, but it could still be better whit a few small changes.

pillaged.
The lase turn before prime time should be the one where you are abel to pillaged a province, if that province is lost to attacker during prime time it should work into the hands of the attacker, they loose gold but chancec of riot should be werry small since the new owner now have 15 chips and is seen as liberater from a former cruel owner.
If the province owner that pillaged the province is succesfull in defending it chances of riot next day should be high, atleast 50% for the clan that pillaged the province, but if province owner looses they still got away whit a few more gold.

Deputy commander Stamhus

TryberPL #16 Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:12 PM

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Proper Clan Logs.
i think that lack of such basic tool, is the biggest problem for all clans.
just like Gnomus said the 2 most important are info about who left clan and about clan gold.

and for the "how to improve Clan Wars" thing - remove BETA stage from it (its already over 2 years!)

Kantti #17 Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:30 AM

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Suggestion:

Instead of turning off the whole clan wars, how about rolling back to previous functioning version for the period you're recoding new versions. Although older versions don't have all the features of newer ones (some consider this even a merit), the function and let people play their End-Game. For people on CW map, the CW is the thing that keeps them in the game and it should be self-evident that one cannot just take end-game away for unknown perioids of time.

nixxxie #18 Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:29 PM

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View Postnaszezrodlo, on 27 January 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

Problem: Clan Wars  are not working.

Solution: Fire Ectar and turn on Clan Wars.

Ectar is a nice guy and very devoted to the community. He just isn't the guy that makes all decisions.

Problem: someone writes ****** post.

Solution: Think before posting!!!


PS: Since this is feedback thread, i hope it works both ways - there is one thing that bothers me:
WG policy is "our games are about machines, not people", so
1. There won't be historical battles between one-nation trees.
2. There are no humans in open-topped tanks.
At the same time, CW map is:
1. Real world map.
2. With modern borders, instead of game tanks period.
WTF?!? This is NOT consistent!
OK, such map is just more attractive, certain players may want different provinces because of personal reasons - but the same players would certainly want one-tree battles attractive, because of the same reasons.

Because of the above, my suggestions are:
1. Merge all servers, it's high time you do that.
2. Introduce 3rd kind of currency, for CW map purposes only (spying etc) and make more such purposes (various investments, improving income, troop transports, etc - which could be destroyed with pillage too) and balance gold income to be side effect only, as small gratification to players (that way, you won't have problem of giving "too much" free gold and allow to build bigger empires).
3. Make CW map not real-world, that way you can always generate more provinces when you get more clans or some grow strong and big. You won't run out of land, even for one global server. And it will fit your policy...
4. Prepare CW engine to add WoWp and WoWs when they go public. I know that there won't be "combined arms" battles but each kind of force can affect outcome separately. WoT and WoWs theaters are exclusive by design, so there's no collision here and i can think of a few ways WoWp battles could interact too (destroying province, partial land force destruction - so you jump into WoT battle with fewer tanks, etc).



Please dont feed the trolls, next time just use REPORT function and report them
/BigBadVuk

PS2: In reply to being censored in red: i didn't use any swearword, nor did i directly insulted anyone, so i don't want anybody think that i did so.

FireflyDivision #19 Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:37 PM

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View PostKantti, on 28 January 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Suggestion:

Instead of turning off the whole clan wars, how about rolling back to previous functioning version for the period you're recoding new versions. Although older versions don't have all the features of newer ones (some consider this even a merit), the function and let people play their End-Game. For people on CW map, the CW is the thing that keeps them in the game and it should be self-evident that one cannot just take end-game away for unknown perioids of time.
Yeah, they should definitely do that. Just taking it down for 3 weeks is very unprofessional.

OlFson #20 Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:25 AM

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Is this feedback a one way street?

I would be very interested in information regarding when and how CW will be reinstated. Is there the possibility of getting those? By now WG should have a rough idea about it.

Regards




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