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Negligence, Sharp Practice or Theft?

wargaming gold premiumammo negligence sharppractice theft

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Poll: Negligence or Sharp Practice (245 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battle in order to participate this poll.

When you are charged gold for premium ammo despite the fcat that you have repeatedly told the game that you want to use credits not gold is it:

  1. Negligent programming by Wargaming to allow the game to continually try to charge you gold - money - despite your repeated direction to use in game credits? (94 votes [38.37%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 38.37%

  2. Sharp practice programming by Wargaming to allow the game to continually try to charge you gold - money - despite your repeated direction to use in game credits? (51 votes [20.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.82%

  3. Theft because against your specific and frequent direction, Wargaming have in effect taken a monetary value from you without your consent with the intention of permanently depriving you of that value? (100 votes [40.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.82%

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Slyspy #41 Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:56 PM

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Everyone on the internet is either a lawyer or a programmer.

Commander_MC_Flabby #42 Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

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View PostSlyspy, on 27 January 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Everyone on the internet is either a lawyer or a programmer.

You forgot ethical compass.

DashingPanache #43 Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:54 PM

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View PostFerodaktyl, on 27 January 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

The same thing happened to me also, and i approve your action. Make them pay you back , one way or another. Monetary value is not the issue here, but their attitude towards paying customers, the same customers that support their f2p game.
Unfortunately i am/was too lazy to follow up with more than 1 post in the forum (http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1), but WG has lost at least one paying client - me (much more i am sure  :Smile_popcorn1: , and counting). Even if it doesn't matter for them, i won't continue to pay someone who, by negligence or by intent scams me out of my money.
Btw, i voted for negligence.

I agree that it is negligence, I don't for one second believe that they intentionally set out to steal people's money.

However, once they refuse to refund value taken from a customer inappropriately when the issue is raised with them, the legal position does not care whether they were negligent in failing to deal with the issue or guilty of sharp practice. The test for theft does not require any greater test of intent than the intention to permanently deprive the right owner of the value or good.

What I am hoping is that by the participation of a number of people in this forum that the problem is amplified enough for them to listen before it gets expensive in terms of bad relations with a growing band of customers. If the news that they take in game money from your account without your consent and refuse to refund it went viral through Facebook and Twiiter for example, how much damage would that do to the image of Wargaming?

I sinecrely hope that they do take heed and that players who have been wrongly charged gold have that gold refunded. At least one person has - a chap posted in the post that WG did refund him. However, others have not and this is not acceptable for me and should not be acceptable to WG management either because it casts an image of them that is not nice and, I hope, not representative of them either.

PAKFA #44 Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:01 PM

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View Postbishop_basher, on 26 January 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

I run about 15 tanks and have never seen it happen...yet.
Me neither.

I don't know if this is tank related issues on specific tanks, but it never happened to the tanks I have....

DashingPanache #45 Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:13 PM

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Here are the details of the support discussion so everyone can see what has gone on here and how wrong the WG "customer support" have been on this (I have put comments in red):

Ticket ID GLH-556-46913
Category
    World of Tanks
Subcategory:
    In-Game Goods
I set up my tanks such that they are auto repaired, consumables restored and ammo restored after each match.
I also make sure that the premium ammo, if selected, if paid for by credits, not gold.I note that, very, very wrongly on your part, that sometimes when you open the game for the first time some tanks reset to using gold for their ammo replenishment despite always being set to use credits.
After a game today using my Tiger P at 20:50 local time, I was auto charged gold for 2 ammo rounds for a total of 20 gold.
I never ever authorised the game to do this and for this reason I must insist that the amount is credited back to my account. I appreciate that in value terms we are talking about very little money, but the simple fact is that is money you have taken from me without my consent and I refuse to allow this.
I look forward to your confirmation of same.

    George Lecross Yesterday at 12:47
    Hello Commander,
    Thank you for contacting us with this issue.
    Unfortunately we are not able to refund you these 20 gold.
    Please make sure to always change on credits in a method of payment for premium ammo- this will prevent the issue from happening again. (AS I CLEARLY STATED, I DO THIS ALL THE TIME BUT THE CHAP JUST IGNORED THAT)
    Kind Regards,
    George Lecross
    CS Wargaming Europe

    DashingPanache Yesterday at 18:48
    Dear George,
    That is an unacceptable answer. As I clearly stated, I am careful to check each time I load up that credits not gold are selected for ammo.
    In addition, the very fact that the game keeps trying to change it to gold rather than credits despite my direction otherwise is, given that you are in effect taking money, illegal and at best negligent on your behalf, at worst extremely sharp practice.
    You have received well over €100 from me so it is not as if I am counting the pennies, but there is an important point of principle here that I will not back down from. If you cannot repay the value you have, against my specific and frequent direction, taken illegally I will expect you to put me in touch with the relevant manager as I will pursue any and all means to redress this wholly illegal move on your part that is the result of negligence or sharp practice in your programming that amounts to theft.

    Maciej Zawada Today at 08:42
    Dear Tank Commander,
    Thank you for your reply.
    We would like to assure you, that we're not trying to steal anything from you.
    For the future, we can only advise that while using premium ammunition for credits, you keep the auto resupply option off.
    Also, if you wish to submit a formal complaint to our managers, please write it in English and send to us and we will forward it to them immediately. (PRETTY SURE THAT I WAS WRITING IN ENGLISH???)
    Kind regards,
    Maciej Zawada
    Customer Service Europe
    https://support.worldoftanks.eu

    DashingPanache Today at 18:07
    Dear Sirs,
    Please pass on to me the e-mail address of the appropriate person so that i can communicate with them directly.
    I appreciate that your position is that you are not trying to steal from customers, but the law does not care for your intent in that regard, only your desire to permanently withhold what is rightfully mine from me.
    Once it is clear, as here, that you have been notified that a flaw in your programming has led to a value being wrongly taken from me by you and you then refuse to refund that value, you are stealing whether that was your original intent or not.
    I do believe that the flaw in your programming is negligent and I do believe that if you have been aware of this for some time and done nothing about it you are straying to willful (sharp practice) or gross negligence. I would sincerely hope that this is not the image of Wargaming that you want to promote.
    As I have stated repeatedly, I took all reasonable precautions against the flaw in your programming by ensuring that each time I start the game I check that all of the tanks are using credits rather than gold to replenish ammo. What happened here is that between launching a battle and returning to the garage, the game switched my choice from using credits to using gold against my express instructions.
    You are thus wholly in the wrong here and it is deeply worrying that you so refuse to address the problem correctly in both law and equity. As I have said, I have spent well over €100 in the last 6 weeks from when I started playing. If you wish for me to understand that you can deduct money value from my account whenever it suits you and not return what is rightfully mine then I wish for you to understand that I will not spend any more money with you and will go out of my way to address your attitude appropriately.

DashingPanache #46 Posted 27 January 2013 - 07:14 PM

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Now a couple of questions please:

1. How do I capture all of the posts & poll in case WG try to suppress this discussion?
2. How do I broadcast the discussion & poll to the WWW so that it becomes searchable on Google etc.?

zmeul #47 Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:54 PM

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View PostDashingPanache, on 27 January 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Now a couple of questions please:

1. How do I capture all of the posts & poll in case WG try to suppress this discussion?
2. How do I broadcast the discussion & poll to the WWW so that it becomes searchable on Google etc.?
I created a blog post about this and as soon I'm fully awake I will post pictures

you should do this too, print screen the whole conversation with support and post it on a image sharing service (Photobucket.com comes in mind)

DashingPanache #48 Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:26 AM

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View Postzmeul, on 27 January 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

I created a blog post about this and as soon I'm fully awake I will post pictures

you should do this too, print screen the whole conversation with support and post it on a image sharing service (Photobucket.com comes in mind)

Can you please provide URL for blog?

zmeul #49 Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:28 AM

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View PostDashingPanache, on 28 January 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

Can you please provide URL for blog?
on these forums, no
I will PM you with the link if you wish so

seven6nine #50 Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:42 AM

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haha op you've beaten me with posting  this tread :)

before the latest patch i noticed that the premium changed back to gold everytime you replenish, set on autorefill.
I noticed it got from sometimes to everytime after the chinese patch
so i putted to autorepair and ammo manualy and than the premium doesn't change back on gold, so i came to the conclusion it was done on purpouse rather than a bug.

BravelyRanAway #51 Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:42 AM

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Never had this happen to me, so how come it happens to some and not others?
If you go to service your tank and just change the option to load 'credits for Gold ammo' without pressing the 'Accept' icon at the bottom of the service page it will not register a change to the service settings.
I'm just saying this in case there are some who are making a simple error while servicing their tank and may not have the bug that the OP has(which is a very annoying Gold and time consuming bug)

zmeul #52 Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:53 AM

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View PostLeadbucket, on 28 January 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

so, let me understand .. you absolutely denying this?
Posted Image

BravelyRanAway #53 Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:05 AM

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No zmeul,
I am no denying anything at all.
I am just saying that some have this bug and some do not and then there will always be a few others that maybe making a simple error when servicing their tank.
I have no problem understanding that the OP has this bug and WG should do something about it.

OllieCromwell #54 Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:15 AM

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View PostTurbotube, on 26 January 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

If you change guns, the premium ammo will switch back to gold.

This...

However... All other 'settings' in combination with the specific gun have persisted over changing guns... My take on this is, WG programmers forgot to persist the 'Payment schema (silver/gold)' for premium rounds and thus it 'defaults' back to gold.

I've been emailing back and forth with WG Customer support, and even asked if they could confirm this 'hunch' with their programmers. Things got very quiet after that... :(

Mr_Burrows #55 Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:28 AM

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I will keep an eye on this thread, as I have been subjected to the same "mistake" too.  The outcome of it will be very interesting, since it will prove - once and for all - if WG listens to their customers, and if they will change pre-set payment options from gold to credits. If the latter remains the same, I will see it as sharp practice/theft, as it then is clear they use this as a method to skim people. Small amounts, but small amounts soon add up.


http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1

Edited by Mr_Burrows, 28 January 2013 - 10:38 AM.


Slyspy #56 Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:19 AM

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Like Leadbucket I've never had this happen to me. However in my long gaming lifetime I've seen any number of patches break other things and bolt-on features not quite working as they should so I wouldn't be surprised. Plus WG are notoriously slow to fix things and are notoriously tight-lipped (some might say evasive and disorganised).

The first checks must, in the great tradition of IT support, be the obvious one: has the user done things properly. The good old "have you plugged it in" or in this case "pressed accept". Also I would have thought that the less universal the bug (if it is a bug) the harder it is to deal with.

5_InchFl0ppy #57 Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:10 PM

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Happens to me every now and then, I voted second option as its pretty damn obvious WG just want to hump your wallet. It also ties in pretty well with the latest tank releases having obscene penetration values when using it and very bad when not (T69, IS2, T-34-2 plus several others I cannot be bothered to type).
Its the little things like this that make me really hope that Warthunder takes off (unintentional pun) and adds the tanks in ASAP as I think some competition will force WG to treat its customers better or risk losing them all.

MhUser #58 Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:20 PM

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i find 373278372672624625462456 of post on forum recently about gold ammo this gold ammo that

why dont you stop exploiting them at all cause they r not balanced and stick to fair play

BravelyRanAway #59 Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:29 PM

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View PostMhUser, on 28 January 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

i find 373278372672624625462456 of post on forum recently about gold ammo this gold ammo that
You wouldn't be exaggerating by any chance, would you?  :Smile_sceptic:

View PostMhUser, on 28 January 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

why dont you stop exploiting them at all cause they r not balanced and stick to fair play

How about you answer on topic, instead of whining about Gold ammo and balance, this topic is about a Bug that eats your Gold, if you want to whine about the fairness of Gold ammo, why not add to one of those 373278372672624625462456 post's your whining about.

OllieCromwell #60 Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:36 PM

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View PostOllieCromwell, on 28 January 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

This...

However... All other 'settings' in combination with the specific gun have persisted over changing guns... My take on this is, WG programmers forgot to persist the 'Payment schema (silver/gold)' for premium rounds and thus it 'defaults' back to gold.

I've been emailing back and forth with WG Customer support, and even asked if they could confirm this 'hunch' with their programmers. Things got very quiet after that... :(

I dug out my old ticket(s)...

This is what I receivee november 29th, 2012, in response to my enquiries..

Quote

Hello Commander,
Indeed when you change your gun your payment settings are set back to default. This makes complete sense as your preferences are set for each specific item. We can't rollback any in-game actions and operations on accounts, even non-planned that are supported by in-game logic. Please, keep in mind that all players bear responsibility for all account and in-game actions. We do understand the inconvenience and there really is nothing we can do. We appreciate your efforts and desire to play. Nonetheless, try to be more attentive and careful next time to avoid this issue from reoccurring.
We hope you continue to enjoy the game and wish you all the best in future battles!  

so they acknowledge that it changes back to  'gold'

Edited by OllieCromwell, 28 January 2013 - 12:38 PM.






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