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Crusader game balance.

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StClement #41 Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:40 AM

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Legend!  :Smile_teethhappy: That's brilliant man! Tell me you meant to do that- lie if you want, but convince me!

Banzai- death from above! :Smile-izmena:

Kyphe #42 Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:06 AM

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View PostStClement, on 09 February 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Legend!  :Smile_teethhappy: That's brilliant man! Tell me you meant to do that- lie if you want, but convince me!

Banzai- death from above! :Smile-izmena:

Hehehe even the dude I killed thought it was epic, bunch of our team would not stop capping so i was racing against the clock to do some more damage

Good_Cat #43 Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:01 AM

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@StClement completely agree the extra mobility would make up for its disadvantages compared to its piers.

Tanks are Mobility, Firepower and Protection ( not in order ) giving it the speed boost would at least give it one of these. Really wanted to enjoy the Brit line but its hard work.

Cromwell is so insane quick

StClement #44 Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:05 PM

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It is hard work, Owain. I can see that the developers wouldn't want to outshine popular existing models, but the British ones seem unusually hobbled.

The wonderful Cromwell is very difficult to fight while moving- to have any real chance of penetrating or damaging it's peers you have to stop and carefully aim for their weak spots- removing your speed advantage and inviting return fires onto your delicate armour.
I can't be the first person to notice the lack of a vertical stabiliser in it's module choices- the one module that would do most to enable the British style of firing on the move to translate into the game. I know someone will pipe up that it didn't have one in real life- but ffs, half the models in this game are cartoon fantasies!
Offering the dedicated British player/fan a way to markedly improve their model that was available to the real vehicle (just never considered necessary enough to fit) seems petty at best and a blatant ploy to force average players to spend real cash on premium ammo at worst.

Cpt_Branko #45 Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:56 AM

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View PostStClement, on 09 February 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

The wonderful Cromwell is very difficult to fight while moving- to have any real chance of penetrating or damaging it's peers you have to stop and carefully aim for their weak spots- removing your speed advantage and inviting return fires onto your delicate armour.

Word of advice - it doesn't. The Cromwell is brilliant at end-battle cleanup mostly for that reason.

Just get close, real close and drive circles around them. Use auto-aim and focus on pressing LMB and avoiding their turret & gun - you can kill a full health VK3601H or Tiger or KVs, or various other tanks without getting shot even once (except maybe on approach) or Churchill 7 or whatnot, since they cannot traverse their turret to fire on you. At 3 metres you're not going to miss with autoaim. Even tanks which can get a shot now and then have a problem hitting such a low profile tank moving around them and machinegunning them with the Vickers HV continuously.

The starting phase of the battle with Cromwell is actually trickier, because you must avoid rushing and being shot (it's very tempting to rush and pretend you're a scout which you are not due to it's speed), yet still try to be useful and shooting enemies. In the mid and end game, it can find and kill isolated tanks like nothing else. I used to have 40% WR in my first 100ish battles with the Cromwell, because I'd die so soon.

Kyphe #46 Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:18 PM

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View PostCpt_Branko, on 11 February 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Word of advice - it doesn't. The Cromwell is brilliant at end-battle cleanup mostly for that reason.

Just get close, real close and drive circles around them. Use auto-aim and focus on pressing LMB and avoiding their turret & gun - you can kill a full health VK3601H or Tiger or KVs, or various other tanks without getting shot even once (except maybe on approach) or Churchill 7 or whatnot, since they cannot traverse their turret to fire on you. At 3 metres you're not going to miss with autoaim. Even tanks which can get a shot now and then have a problem hitting such a low profile tank moving around them and machinegunning them with the Vickers HV continuously.

The starting phase of the battle with Cromwell is actually trickier, because you must avoid rushing and being shot (it's very tempting to rush and pretend you're a scout which you are not due to it's speed), yet still try to be useful and shooting enemies. In the mid and end game, it can find and kill isolated tanks like nothing else. I used to have 40% WR in my first 100ish battles with the Cromwell, because I'd die so soon.

Ohhhh yes this is very true, used to have the same problem with the old T23, it was fast enough for you to get into trouble long before anyone could help you, so if you are not careful you die as quick as you drive. The speed in these cases allows you to patrol a ridge-line to intercept scouts and then get to where you need to be once you have worked out where the enemy actually is on the minimap.

Also you can run interference for your heavies, I often charge right past a defending group of slow turreted heavies and almost all the time they will turn their guns to follow you, which allows your team free shots and free movement, and if they don't well that is free shots for you.

oh yeah back on scouts I find from the start that the crom is a great rammer of lights and arty due to its speed, get the ramming skill for the driver to reduce the damage you take in return and you are good to go.

StClement #47 Posted 11 February 2013 - 04:17 PM

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Guys- if I can't penetrate the bad guys armour with well aimed shots to his weak spots, why would banging in unaimed ones while circling him be more effective?  :Smile_veryhappy:

Other tanks shine late game too- TDs, for instance, following the heavies and picking off already weakened flankers trying to mug their big brothers!  :Smile_blinky:

My point wasn't about tactics, though, it was WGs deliberate hobbling of the British line. The stab would improve all of your preferred manoeuvres and go some way toward compensating for the poor penetration and damage of British guns.

That twin hit- most shots bounce, even penetrations do little damage- makes a mockery of the dpm statistic we see on so many of these threads. Making it easier to hit with the weapon on the move would make that dpm more achievable, as well as playing to the vehicles strengths, instead of against them.

Again, I enjoy the Cromwell, but WG seem to have built in an extra flaw that similar vehicles don't have.

3Form #48 Posted 11 February 2013 - 07:08 PM

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The idea is that only the US get stabilisers at Tier 6. Everyone else gets them at Tier 7 (or 8 maybe? I'm not sure).

Cromwell is widely regarded as one of the best British tanks so I'm really unsure what you are complaining about :P

As for the Crusader it has fantastic DPM, great gun depression and passable mobility. As an avid Easy 8 driver I can tell you there is nothing wrong with that combination, even if you feel you lack penetration.

StClement #49 Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:39 PM

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What I'm taking note of  :Smile-tongue:  is the way there are all sorts of jarring little inconsistencies that seem to be designed to hobble the British designs, 3Form. Cromwell being a great example, for the reasons already stated. Crusader being another. Achieving the Crusaders' theoretical DPM requires a decent number of penetrating hits- something the Crusader's lack of mobility, poor gun and general inability to last long enough in a game to deliver them rather mitigates against.

Congratulations on making the Easy 8 work for you, mate. I haven't driven one, but looking at the stats I think I can see why they're not a common sight these days.  :Smile_blinky:

Kyphe #50 Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:04 AM

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I still have my easy8, well I had to sell it to get the T20 first time round as I went US meds from the start, but i bought it back as it is excellent and a good money maker.

It shares some of its tactics with the crusader though not all.

As for penetration I don't know what the problem is, I pen almost everything I shoot at without aiming for weak spots

starlight2098 #51 Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:51 AM

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+1 for that gif, Kyphe.

I've driven the M4, the T-34 and the Pz IV as well as the Crusader and I'd personally rather use it then any of them.  It fits my playstyle better.

I don't see the complaints about the 6-pdr L/50's penetration.  The shots that glance off are usually at a bad angle and were usually not worth taking in the first place (and giving away my position.)  i've generally gotten terrific DPS out of the Crusader as long as I've not gotten too kill-greedy.

You can do a lot more damage and live a lot longer if you take a few shots and then retreat (unless you're in a skirmish, in which case, knife-fight, duck-under-their-aim time.)   Sticking around detected for too loo long brings the HE that Brits in general fear so you have to pull back from kills for victory.

That is just an issue with British guns.  You can do most of the damage but frequently someone will vulture the kill with their higher alpha after you've done most of the work.  You just have to shrug and move on, glad that the enemy is down and reconcile yourself to the fact that you earn more XP and Creds for 4k damage and 1 kill with a victory then 2k damage and 2 kills with a loss (numbers not relative to tier.)

In spite of that issue, I wouldn't change Brit guns, not least because the high RoF seems to give a much better chance of starting engine fires.  Which is quite satisfying. z: )

3Form #52 Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:49 PM

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View PostStClement, on 11 February 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

What I'm taking note of  :Smile-tongue:  is the way there are all sorts of jarring little inconsistencies that seem to be designed to hobble the British designs, 3Form. Cromwell being a great example, for the reasons already stated. Crusader being another. Achieving the Crusaders' theoretical DPM requires a decent number of penetrating hits- something the Crusader's lack of mobility, poor gun and general inability to last long enough in a game to deliver them rather mitigates against.

Congratulations on making the Easy 8 work for you, mate. I haven't driven one, but looking at the stats I think I can see why they're not a common sight these days.  :Smile_blinky:

Matey don't take this the wrong way, and forgive me if this is the case already, but it might help to play some of the other tier 5 tanks in order to get a sense of perspective. I've never had a problem with the Crusader's penetration. I mean, it has 110mm penetration. The T-34 has a mere 2mm more at 112mm and the M7 has "even" less at 105mm.

Grass is always greener on the other side. The T-34 is sluggish, it makes the Crusader seem quite mobile in fact.

StClement #53 Posted 13 February 2013 - 11:49 PM

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View Post3Form, on 13 February 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Matey don't take this the wrong way, and forgive me if this is the case already, but it might help to play some of the other tier 5 tanks in order to get a sense of perspective. I've never had a problem with the Crusader's penetration. I mean, it has 110mm penetration. The T-34 has a mere 2mm more at 112mm and the M7 has "even" less at 105mm.

Grass is always greener on the other side. The T-34 is sluggish, it makes the Crusader seem quite mobile in fact.

Ha ha- no, I won't mate.  :Smile_blinky:  Whatever flack I get back is well deserved- I'm well aware I'm the fng gobbing off here. However, I really do think WG have hobbled every model I've played so far, over and above the requirements of game balance. I gave up on the game once before because it was so blatantly biased toward Soviet kit, but when I heard there were British tanks now I figured it might be worth another go. I'm rather wishing I hadn't bothered, to be honest. It's one thing to casually delete a game because you consider it to be poorly balanced- it's quite another to see some of your nations' most iconic war machines reduced to a cruel joke. But like Magnus says- I've started, so I'll finish. I'll probably pick up a few other WW2 models en route, just for variety. If I don't die of boredom trying to grind the execrable M3!  :Smile_smile:

I don't have a problem with the Crusaders penetration. I have a problem with the Cromwells, the Comets, the Black Princes, the Churchills...but not the Crusaders. The Crusader top gun is underpowered, though. You can't use it's high rof without exposing yourself to return fires that your armour simply can't withstand. So the DPM stat is bollocks- to be successful you scurry around taking potshots from the undergrowth. Where your pathetic damage scores are hardly likely to worry the tiers below, much less the T5, 6 and 7 opponents you will have to face.

The Zis 4 you mention has comparable penetration, rate of fire and aim time- that's comparable as in slightly better in all respects- while dealing 13% more damage per hit, being more accurate and crucially, being mounted on a faster, better armoured model. It's a better gun- those marginal differences add up- which hits significantly harder, mounted to a better vehicle. The T-34 may feel sluggish, but it's faster, accelerates quicker and loses less speed in a turn. That's a nasty surprise the first few times you try to use your allegedly superior traverse and turret traverse in a turning fight, only to see the T34 whip around onto your tail. Not that position matters much- the T34 will penetrate with every shot, while many of yours will bounce. Lovely stuff, sloped armour, unless it happens to be on a Brit turret...  :Smile_amazed: (allegedly!  :Smile_blinky: )

It's a similar story with the Sherman and the Pz III/IV- faster, better armoured with significantly more firepower. The comedy value of the German KwK 42 10.5cm- 350 damage, can penetrate every surface on the Crusader with ease- wore thin after about the third or fourth time I was one shotted by a suspiciously fast moving model. The Sherman's whacking out more than a third more damage per shot with the standard gun, but yet again, a 105 is available if the driver wants the one shot experience. Mounted on a slightly faster, much better armoured vehicle...

Good_Cat #54 Posted 14 February 2013 - 12:25 PM

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The DPM of the crusader would be great if you could use it entirely, each round fired would hit, pen and damage.
Only possible at close range where you can ignore the slower aim time than reload, however survivability is highly unlikely due to paper thin armour and your at close range.

At medium range reload time is faster than the aim so you have to wait for the aiming circle to close before firing therefore your DPM is less.

All good and well if your target is overly exposed for an extended time so you can punch rounds into him, but for a peek aboo enemy with better alpha dam but slower reload time he'll do more damage then retreat only allowing you 1-2 rounds on him.

Cpt_Branko #55 Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:41 PM

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Don't peekaboo with high ROF, low alpha tanks, goes without saying... it is the same for the Crusader and T-34 (and Chinese knockoffs), and so on and so forth. If you want to peekaboo, things with 105mm howitzers and (Russian) heavies are your friend.

There is more to combat then that, however. Naturally, you can't use it's full ROF in all situations, and that goes for almost any tank. Survival is generally more important then "just one more shot", but there are situations where you can (typically, when someone is busy). This also goes for just about any medium t5 tank, since none of them have armour which will reliably stop even T4 guns, much less stop their peers, but the better armoured ones (M4, T-34, PZ 3/4) might get some lucky bounces which effectively give them a greater HP reserve.

Sometimes you can use the Crusader (or T-34's) ROF to melt a tank upclose, even 1v1 (because it WILL melt other tanks with "normal" cannons), however, you are likely to come out badly damaged out of the encounter (and this is also true for all T5 mediums, since while the better armoured ones may bounce an occasional shot, most of it goes through). This is just a bad idea in all medium tanks, bar to an extent the 105mm howitzer ones (because they can potentially one-two shot things they meet - even then, unless they both hit first and oneshot - they will take damage).

The Crusader's problem isn't that it's hugely underpowered in any single respect, but rather that it is slightly underpowered in almost all respects except camouflage on the move, size (which is not that useful without speed) and gun depression (which is not that useful without an armoured turret). It's problem is that it logically (judging by it's historical peers and opponents) should be a tier 4 tank (like the Matildas and Valentines and Lees it fought alongside, and the PZ 3s it fought against).

Of course it's gun could be buffed and a few soft stats could be buffed (like, speed loss in turns and such, anyone saying the Crusader is mobile compared to the T-34 hasn't driven both with a good crew). I did get worse results in a Crusader then in other T5 mediums (I have the T-34, M4, PZ IV as well), but the tank isn't that underpowered.

Ultimately I sold it and retrained the crew and re-bought a Churchill I, which is quite brilliant (shame it doesn't look as good as the LL Churchill III and has ugly the hull-mounted gun, but then again - you're always better off without the mudguards).

Edited by Cpt_Branko, 14 February 2013 - 01:48 PM.


Good_Cat #56 Posted 15 February 2013 - 02:19 PM

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View PostCpt_Branko, on 14 February 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

Don't peekaboo with high ROF, low alpha tanks, goes without saying... it is the same for the Crusader and T-34 (and Chinese knockoffs), and so on and so forth. If you want to peekaboo, things with 105mm howitzers and (Russian) heavies are your friend.

There is more to combat then that, however. Naturally, you can't use it's full ROF in all situations, and that goes for almost any tank. Survival is generally more important then "just one more shot", but there are situations where you can (typically, when someone is busy). This also goes for just about any medium t5 tank, since none of them have armour which will reliably stop even T4 guns, much less stop their peers, but the better armoured ones (M4, T-34, PZ 3/4) might get some lucky bounces which effectively give them a greater HP reserve.

Sometimes you can use the Crusader (or T-34's) ROF to melt a tank upclose, even 1v1 (because it WILL melt other tanks with "normal" cannons), however, you are likely to come out badly damaged out of the encounter (and this is also true for all T5 mediums, since while the better armoured ones may bounce an occasional shot, most of it goes through). This is just a bad idea in all medium tanks, bar to an extent the 105mm howitzer ones (because they can potentially one-two shot things they meet - even then, unless they both hit first and oneshot - they will take damage).

The Crusader's problem isn't that it's hugely underpowered in any single respect, but rather that it is slightly underpowered in almost all respects except camouflage on the move, size (which is not that useful without speed) and gun depression (which is not that useful without an armoured turret). It's problem is that it logically (judging by it's historical peers and opponents) should be a tier 4 tank (like the Matildas and Valentines and Lees it fought alongside, and the PZ 3s it fought against).

Of course it's gun could be buffed and a few soft stats could be buffed (like, speed loss in turns and such, anyone saying the Crusader is mobile compared to the T-34 hasn't driven both with a good crew). I did get worse results in a Crusader then in other T5 mediums (I have the T-34, M4, PZ IV as well), but the tank isn't that underpowered.

Ultimately I sold it and retrained the crew and re-bought a Churchill I, which is quite brilliant (shame it doesn't look as good as the LL Churchill III and has ugly the hull-mounted gun, but then again - you're always better off without the mudguards).

We're in agreement,as above. Remeber a medium will ram you also, The Cromwell (Ramwell) is good at this

I've also a Pz3/4, Pz4 and T34 excluding the derp on the Pz4 and run it with the normal 7.5cm in comparison the Pz3/4 has mobility, Pz4 has armour and T-34 has that great 57mm

As i've said in the other post, soft stats at least to make it more useful at its current tier for every plus point this tank has in a situation it also has two cons it seems. Not necessarily the gun but some thing needs to be improved, either make it mobile sharp and quick able to punch some rounds around the battlefield and escape ( bhp /t ) or  tweak the aim time to keep up with the reload allowing you to use the full DPM at more accurately or increase accuracy, so you can slink around the battlefield at range and use your camo factor. Armour buff is pointless.

smiglo112 #57 Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:11 AM

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Well just bought one like several hours ago, and i gotta say i hate it... It looks awesome, except that thing where the driver is located, but its slow, has weak gun, can't scout properly...

BUT! I finally found out, what it's pro is...
Spoiler                     

YES! It can fire towards the back of its turret...

Victorious_Nox #58 Posted 19 February 2013 - 12:59 PM

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I think that they should put the Crusader at Tier 4 (completely scrap the Covenanter) and put the Cavalier (upgraded Crusader) at tier 5. It would make the Crusader much more effective.

bosqit #59 Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:40 PM

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View Postsmiglo112, on 19 February 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:


BUT! I finally found out, what it's pro is...

YES! It can fire towards the back of its turret...

I always knew it has this "something" :DDDD





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