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Crusader game balance.

Crusader tierfivetanks t5tanks lighttanks

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Kyphe #21 Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:45 PM

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View PostStClement, on 27 January 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:



If you're more skilled than the other player, great! That's the whole point, after all. But he can do exactly the same thing back, Kyphe. When your vehicle lacks speed, protection and firepower compared to your tier equivalents, then you're playing at a disadvantage. I'm glad you think being able to skulk around in the undergrowth makes up for being unable to move, hit or take a blow equivalent to your peers- personally, I'd rather that the computer model that resembles a tank so well would actually be capable of performing tank like feats, at least in the company of it's T5 peers.  :Smile_blinky:

The crusader has better forward and back than most T5 being light

like most tanks with gun depression the terrain is your armor, a T34 for example is limited in the areas of the map it can use effective due to poor gun depression, M4 has depression but has its own problems.

This tank suits me as I love the US med line which also rely on gun depression so i know the maps and I know how to exploit the limitations of other tanks.

the crusader is a raiding guerrilla tank, uses a lot of the same skills as the T9 patton

Edited by Kyphe, 28 January 2013 - 12:11 AM.


Kyphe #22 Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:47 PM

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View Postgladorus, on 27 January 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

I hope you have a large amount of free exp because all british medium tanks have the same problem. The heavy line has armour to the exclusion off all else so  you are pretty much f!@ked.

not really, after the BP the brit heavies play like slow meds

Lilleman #23 Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:20 AM

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First of all… not all tanks are for all players. We all have tanks that we can’t use well. For me it’s the E50. I think it’s a good tank. It’s just that I can’t win with it…

The crusader on the other hand…

When I first got it I was just planning to pass by on my way to the higher levels. It had crap speed crap armor a popgun and turned like an elephant.  I just wanted to get rid of it.

Now… I have 230+ games in it and a 63% win rate. It’s my only T5 tank and I absolutely love it. For me its way better than any of the other T5 tanks.

- If you look for a fast scout that has great speed and turns on the spot… then this is not the tank for you.
- If you want a tank that can take on enemies head on and brawl them to death… then this is not the tank for you.

But if you want a stealth sniper that pinpoints its enemies to death and then vanish like smoke and undetected get to a new place where it finishes off a new un expecting victim… then the crusader is your tank

I cannot help you like the tank better but I can tell how I play it.
- Use your fairly good speed to get to a good sniping and spotting position.
- Don’t open fire to soon or they can escape.
- Use your really accurate gun to pinpoint the targets and as its such small gun… You will if you stand on a well chosen spot… you can keep fire safely and undetected.
- Regroup to a new spot or move in behind them

For me the Crusader is the ultimate cloaked assassin.

BossTroll #24 Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:24 PM

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View PostLilleman, on 28 January 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

First of all… not all tanks are for all players. We all have tanks that we can’t use well. For me it’s the E50. I think it’s a good tank. It’s just that I can’t win with it…

The crusader on the other hand…

When I first got it I was just planning to pass by on my way to the higher levels. It had crap speed crap armor a popgun and turned like an elephant.  I just wanted to get rid of it.

Now… I have 230+ games in it and a 63% win rate. It’s my only T5 tank and I absolutely love it. For me its way better than any of the other T5 tanks.

- If you look for a fast scout that has great speed and turns on the spot… then this is not the tank for you.
- If you want a tank that can take on enemies head on and brawl them to death… then this is not the tank for you.

But if you want a stealth sniper that pinpoints its enemies to death and then vanish like smoke and undetected get to a new place where it finishes off a new un expecting victim… then the crusader is your tank

I cannot help you like the tank better but I can tell how I play it.
- Use your fairly good speed to get to a good sniping and spotting position.
- Don’t open fire to soon or they can escape.
- Use your really accurate gun to pinpoint the targets and as its such small gun… You will if you stand on a well chosen spot… you can keep fire safely and undetected.
- Regroup to a new spot or move in behind them

For me the Crusader is the ultimate cloaked assassin.

Amen, brother!

The Crusader is an awesome stealth assassin.

It does have very unique gameplay, there really isn't any other tank quite like it.

It loves long slowly sloping hills, any sort of depression in the ground. You can use any sort of bump, bench, car, etc to hide it. It's tiny height (lower than a Stug3) means you don't need a big dip.
Learn the maps, find those tiny hidey holes where nobody else can park safely, and use those spots to surprise the hell out of the other team.
Once they find you, move away. Fade into the landscape, relocate, and do it again.
Even though it's topspeed is low, it reaches it's top quite fast, and on almost any terain.

The 6pounder/L50 has deceptively good accuracy when you're standing still, on the move it's a tad disapointing. One of the very best points about the L50 is it's low damage, many people will ignore you the first 2-4 shots. thinking it's HE-splash. When they start searching, you're fifth or sixth shot is in him, and the next underway. Thats enough to kill a t5 medium on average.

Mine has Vents, GLD and Binocs, trained stealh+lightbulb first, now I'm almost done with the second skill.

Cpt_Branko #25 Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:29 PM

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First off, comparing Crusader with ELC and Leopard and such is idiocy. These tanks have scout MM, Crusader has Tier 5 medium matchmaking.

So it should be compared to T-34, PZ IV, PZ III/IV, M7, M4, Type T-34. It is a slightly bit worse imo then most of these, but it is a usable tank.

On certain maps it is very good, on some it's worse then other meds. Obviously, maps which have eg lots of sand dunes make the Crusader very competitive, while maps with closerange town fighting don't. I drove almost all T5 mediums - it's not inferior by much, tbh.

However, it is not a good choice for a beginner's T5 tank; when I first got it, I did quite badly. Revisiting it after getting experience with various mediums made it a bit better. The tank is not stellar, mind you, but is usable. Comparing it to dedicated scouts which get completely different matchmaking is certainly unfair to it.

Edited by Cpt_Branko, 03 February 2013 - 02:32 PM.


Good_Cat #26 Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:31 PM

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View PostLilleman, on 28 January 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

First of all… not all tanks are for all players. We all have tanks that we can’t use well. For me it’s the E50. I think it’s a good tank. It’s just that I can’t win with it…

The crusader on the other hand…

When I first got it I was just planning to pass by on my way to the higher levels. It had crap speed crap armor a popgun and turned like an elephant.  I just wanted to get rid of it.

Now… I have 230+ games in it and a 63% win rate. It’s my only T5 tank and I absolutely love it. For me its way better than any of the other T5 tanks.

- If you look for a fast scout that has great speed and turns on the spot… then this is not the tank for you.
- If you want a tank that can take on enemies head on and brawl them to death… then this is not the tank for you.

But if you want a stealth sniper that pinpoints its enemies to death and then vanish like smoke and undetected get to a new place where it finishes off a new un expecting victim… then the crusader is your tank

I cannot help you like the tank better but I can tell how I play it.
- Use your fairly good speed to get to a good sniping and spotting position.
- Don’t open fire to soon or they can escape.
- Use your really accurate gun to pinpoint the targets and as its such small gun… You will if you stand on a well chosen spot… you can keep fire safely and undetected.
- Regroup to a new spot or move in behind them

For me the Crusader is the ultimate cloaked assassin.

Really accurate gun??? Cloaked Assassin???? Stealth Sniper what the fuck are you on about the 6 pdr Gun Mk. V (L/50). top gun has 0.41 acc @100m this is beaten by the Teir V

US Chaffee both the 75mm and 76mm
Soviet T-50-2 both the 45mm VT-42 and 57m Zis4
German Vk2801 5cm Kwk 39 L60, 7,5 cm KwK 40 L/43 and 7,5 cm KwK 40 L/48

Sniper hell no more like a machine gun but you could do the same with any of these, the depession on it is great but the likely hood of survival to get to a decent position is unlikely and there isn't always a good position.

Don't get me wrong i kinda like the Crusader but as a tank ( the tacks, gun, and armour ) it is not as good as the others, the other could do the same and more.

Cpt_Branko #27 Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:40 PM

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View Postowainbowdler, on 06 February 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

US Chaffee both the 75mm and 76mm
Soviet T-50-2 both the 45mm VT-42 and 57m Zis4
German Vk2801 5cm Kwk 39 L60, 7,5 cm KwK 40 L/43 and 7,5 cm KwK 40 L/48

You are comparing tanks which cannot be compared directly, because you compare a tank with tier 5 medium matchmaking (that is playing in tiers 5-7) with tanks which have tier 5 scout matchmaking (and play in tiers 7-10) and are considered endgame tanks and have repair costs to match.

The Crusader gets the matchmaking of tier 5 mediums and generally performs roughly on the level of tier 5 mediums and should be compared to them, not tier 4/5 scouts (which all get in higher tier matches).

Edited by Cpt_Branko, 06 February 2013 - 07:41 PM.


Lilleman #28 Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:59 AM

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View Postowainbowdler, on 06 February 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

Really accurate gun??? Cloaked Assassin???? Stealth Sniper what the fuck are you on about the 6 pdr Gun Mk. V (L/50). top gun has 0.41 acc @100m this is beaten by the Teir V

US Chaffee both the 75mm and 76mm
Soviet T-50-2 both the 45mm VT-42 and 57m Zis4
German Vk2801 5cm Kwk 39 L60, 7,5 cm KwK 40 L/43 and 7,5 cm KwK 40 L/48

Sniper hell no more like a machine gun but you could do the same with any of these, the depession on it is great but the likely hood of survival to get to a decent position is unlikely and there isn't always a good position.

Don't get me wrong i kinda like the Crusader but as a tank ( the tacks, gun, and armour ) it is not as good as the others, the other could do the same and more.

You do not have to listen to me of course. You free to play the tank any way you want. :Smile_Default:

But maybe… just maybe try to use the tank the way I suggest.
I have used that tactic with some success (240 games 63% win rate) while it seem to me that you way to use it might be a bit… well not optional. (72games 40% win rate)
Anyway I happy to platoon with you some and show you how I use the tank.  :Smile_glasses:

Good_Cat #29 Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:45 AM

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I see your tactic and it seems the only way to play it but its frustrating ( and i'm ranting i know at no one in perticular and Soz Lilleman i was overly harsh ) that it requires a specific type of gameplay, even though its a t5 light we can't compare it to them as they're either a dedicated scout legend or like the ELC AMX a wacky tank with speed, agility and that monstrous 90mm, the Crusader just doesn't seem to have that extra something that the others have so its orphaned from the usual MM and stuck with the mediums, of which all of them at a similar tier will cut it to pieces.

Using sand dunes for eg to turret down on can't you do this with an M4, and do everything else it can't. I've only got so far on this but most so far have a place the crusader doesn't seem to, apart from being an orphaned light tank.

Lights have a specific use the Crusader needs one, if its being a Stealth Sniper, it has the camo factor but doesn't have the gun doesn't fulfil this. I'm annoyed that this tank doesn't excel at anything when it deserves to.
Either that or teir 4 it where it could mix it up with PzIII's.

Finally got the Cromwell last night, i've keep the Crusader because i don't dislike it, but my final Crusader match the 200xp i needed to upgrade, i got tiered against an IS i hit this tank 23 times each time doing damage and still didn't kill it and im guessing i got ignored as he was busy killing the rest of my flank, hull down works but 23 hits on the one target before some else comes along and finishes the job.

Just needs that little something extra.

Edited by owainbowdler, 07 February 2013 - 10:50 AM.


Cpt_Branko #30 Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:54 AM

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View Postowainbowdler, on 07 February 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Finally got the Cromwell last night, i've keep the Crusader because i don't dislike it, but my final Crusader match the 200xp i needed, i got tiered against an IS i hit this tank 23 times each time doing damage and still didn't kill it and im guessing i got ignored as he was busy killing the rest of my flank, hull down works but 23 hits on the one target before some else came along and finished the job.

So? Do you think that other tier 5 mediums need much less? A PZ IV with the 75mm gun would need 15 hits most likely, and it has much slower ROF (although it does better at range because it's ROF and aimtime are well matched), if we assume that 50% will hit the tracks or fail to penetrate for some other reason (this is being generous).

I once killed an IS with a T-34 after scoring 30 hits in the side, until it finally set on fire and burned (firing at extreme distance = lots of track hits / etc) with it's 57mm gun. The only tier 5 guns which can inflict massive damage are the 105mm howitzers (when loaded with HEAT, for harder targets). That's how it is.

It's the British tier 5 medium; it is not the best t5 medium, but it is not the worst, either.

Good_Cat #31 Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:10 PM

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What do you think, does it need something extra? What would you add or change?

Whats its niche in the game, not a flanker like the Pz3/4 nor a bit of a brawler like the Pz4 not an allrounder like the T-34?

There are tanks that overlap eg two tanks you'd use as flankers, find an opening and exploite like i do with the PzIII/IV ( use it speed and manoeuvrability to get in, do some damage with the gun and with enough hp and armour to take a hit ) can do the similar with the PzIV not as quick but you can brute force you way through with the better armour )

Its got good Camo and retains it though movement but the rest i can't think of........ hull down positions there may be some but not a lot and only a few good ones, and why not use a TD or M4.

Why would you chose a Crusader over a TD or a similar medium?

Edited by owainbowdler, 07 February 2013 - 01:19 PM.


StClement #32 Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:58 PM

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I'd speed it up, Owain. Watching tanks that were historically slower disappear into the distance at a rate of knots, in spite of carrying massive guns and extra armour in game, tells me a thing or two about the absolute contempt that WG have for British armour. Crusaders were fast and comparatively well armed in real life; it helped them overcome the better armoured equivalent panzers. They were well matched in real life, but in game it's not even close!
This game blatantly isn't about realism- check out the battlecruiser armament and ginagerous turrets that abound!  :Smile_veryhappy: Giving the Crusader a wee speed boost wouldn't unbalance the game- but it would help compensate for the paper armour and popgun.
The Cromwell on the tier above is a pretty poor opponent- it's a big target with thin armour and an ineffective gun, denied at least one module that would improve that gun into something much more useful (a vertical stabiliser). But it's huge fun to play and some of the better drivers (not me!  :Smile_blinky: ) can absolutely dominate the more open levels with it. Having an advantage- speed in this case-  gives you options. Lacking advantages- being weaker in mobility, firepower and protection that your tier mates- puts you at a disadvantage. It really is that simple.
All this bollocks about 'stealth sniper' is just willie waving. Yes, some people do very well in this computer model. Well done, lads. But that's because they're compensating for it's inherent weaknesses, not them cashing in on some secret ability only they've noticed. There are lots of models much better suited to hiding in bushes and blatting the other guys from a distance, believe me. Snipers generally have powerful, accurate weapons- not the thinly disguised BB gun the Crusader mounts.

I'm not having a pop at the better Crusader drivers, by the way. If it works for them and they're having fun, great, fill your boots, fellas. But implying, or just flatly stating, that it's disadvantages are the fault of the less experienced drivers getting pulverised because they lack speed, protection or hitting power- well, that's not really cricket, you know? I'm getting a bit tired of the 'train your crew, fit all the modules' refrain as well. The other drivers can do that too, girls! You can improve the model. It's a fun game feature and you will notice an improvement: but your customised model will still be at a disadvantage, doubly so if the other guy has customised his tank, too.

Cpt_Branko #33 Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:22 PM

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View PostStClement, on 07 February 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I'd speed it up, Owain. Watching tanks that were historically slower disappear into the distance at a rate of knots, in spite of carrying massive guns and extra armour in game, tells me a thing or two about the absolute contempt that WG have for British armour. Crusaders were fast and comparatively well armed in real life; it helped them overcome the better armoured equivalent panzers. They were well matched in real life, but in game it's not even close!

The Crusader was slower in real life then in game (it's max speed on road was 42km/h, 24km/h offroad); although this goes for a number of tanks (PZ IV's max speed on road was also 42km/h, 16km/h offroad), T-34 had a topspeed of 53km/h on road, etc. The Crusader wasn't used much after the Africa campaign, while tanks like the PZ IV and M4 did. It simply wasn't on par and was replaced by the M4 and the Cromwell for combat; after Africa it was only used in secondary roles.

The problem is that WG decided to make the Crusader a Tier 5 vehicle, while the Lee it fought together with is a Tier 4 vehicle, and the PZIII it mostly fought against is also tier 4. So the Crusader has the worst "hard stats" like armour and so on, out of all tier 5 medium tanks. In return it gets camouflage on the move, insane ROF and such to compensate; whether this is enough is debatable.

Likewise, WG decided to make the Cromwell, a tank which IRL preformed somewhere along the lines of a M4 (albeit; faster - it's gun was inferior though) a Tier 6 tank, but added to it a gun it never had (Vickers HV) to compensate with crazy ROF. So you get this super-fast tank with insane ROF, high penetration, good accuracy gun, so of course it does work well at it's tier...

I've used most T5 mediums, myself - the PZ 4, the Crusader, M4, T-34... I consider the Crusader the weakest of the four and get the worst results in it.  The US M7 is probably weaker imo, due to an even weaker gun, larger size and papermache armour (although, it has speed). PZ III / IV I did not use, and I consider to be "meh", although with it's speed it may be able to flank more effectively then the PZ IV; on the other hand PZ IV has more ROF and viewrange. The differences however are not massive, except when 105mm howitzer tanks are considered (which have the alpha to play on a different level).

Edited by Cpt_Branko, 07 February 2013 - 03:30 PM.


StClement #34 Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:29 PM

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The thing is Cpt., without getting into the whole WW2 willie waving contest in real life the Crusader was competitive. You're right, it was phased out when better kit came along. That better kit continued to improve until it bore little resemblance to the original vehicles. The Pz III/IV the Crusaders faced were less capable, the M4s torn apart at the Kasserine weren't the M4s that fought in Europe or Korea, the cramped, ineffective T-34s that met the German invasion weren't the tough, capable afvs that pushed on Berlin etc.
My point being, if the Crusader was competitive when it was in service then it ought to be competitive in the game.
Personally I'd speed it up- it was fast and agile in real life, make that it's in game advantage.
I wouldn't mind it, the Cromwell and the Comet all being brought down a tier. That also would work, as long as WG resisted the temptation to cripple the designs to compensate.
But the reality is the company hold British kit in utter contempt. Their rendition of British guns and tanks is a poor joke. Better yet, read the advice threads on almost every model- someone will inevitably pipe up 'use gold ammo' or 'train crew/fit modules' or even 'skip that model, use free experience'. They're making a decent profit from the models being so piss poor compared to their tier mates.

Things won't change, mate. I understand that and the reasons why. I don't like it- if there was an alternative game I'd wipe this pos from my drive and be glad to let WG pocket the gold in my account. But hey- there's a certain bloody minded satisfaction knowing that when you win with the shite that wears such iconic skins, it's entirely down to your own skill and effort, not any ability conferred by the sub standard model.

Cpt_Branko #35 Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:29 AM

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Well, the British medium line was my first tank line. Which was a mistake, because it is quite likely the most difficult tank line to do well in.

In my view, the Crusader and the Cromwell should've been tiered down (with the Cromwell having it's historical gun selection, meaning the 6pdr & low-penetration 75mm), a slight ROF reduction on the Crusader (because 2500 DPM would be OP for a tier 4 vehicle),  and of course HP matching the tier. However, the British tanks are not the only ones shafted by the tiering system (the Germans are too; making some of their iconic vehicles capable only as "snipers").

If you like British tanks, the British heavy line is far better in comparison, although you have to live with the fact they're slow; however the Churchill I is quite good (it was my first heavy tank, and yet I did 62% win rate in randoms over 200 matches with positive kills/losses and good xp per match), since it gets the same top gun as the Cromwell does on top of a tough and durable, albeit slow, chassis. It is not difficult to do well with that tank... Crusader, on the other hand, is.

StClement #36 Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:59 AM

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:Smile_blinky: Played a Church lately, Cpt.? Everyone knows about the track weakspot. Take a hit to the tracks on the front of your tank, have a big Brucie bonus of hp wiped out as well. Before I learned how to sidescrape I was regularly losing turret crew before the front of my tank had even cleared a corner. And the maps are a lot bumpier these days- a lot of times I struggled to get the gun on target, much less aim at those tottie wee weak spots everyone's always banging on about.

I agree 100% with the Germans being f*cked over, too. That's the reason I stopped playing first time around- although I didn't realise back then that there was a forum that I could come and drip about it on.  :Smile_veryhappy: I figured meh, so they don't like Germans, nothing new there. I've played flight sims like that.

Tbh I think that's a big part of my problem with the game- I like sims and I have an unhealthy interest in WW2 history. It irritates me enormously that the Brit vehicles are (allegedly) close to reality, when half the models in game are a fantasy. That goes double when I know just how effective they were in real life. I should have known better- or just bit the bullet and put on a Soviet helmet!  :Smile_blinky:

Cpt_Branko #37 Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:20 PM

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View PostStClement, on 08 February 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

:Smile_blinky: Played a Church lately, Cpt.? Everyone knows about the track weakspot.Take a hit to the tracks on the front of your tank, have a big Brucie bonus of hp wiped out as well. Before I learned how to sidescrape I was regularly losing turret crew before the front of my tank had even cleared a corner. And the maps are a lot bumpier these days- a lot of times I struggled to get the gun on target, much less aim at those tottie wee weak spots everyone's always banging on about.


Churchill I has exposed tracks, so it is much better protected then the later models which don't have exposed tracks.  :Smile_trollface-3:

Yeah, gun depression in the Churchill is definitely depressing, and mediums race ahead of you once you've made a breakthrough and farm the easy kills, but the Churchill I is actually a good British tank.

View PostStClement, on 08 February 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

I should have known better- or just bit the bullet and put on a Soviet helmet!  :Smile_blinky:

Grab the M4 Sherman, fit the 105mm howitzer, bring 10 HEAT rounds with you and have fun.

Edited by Cpt_Branko, 08 February 2013 - 03:22 PM.


StClement #38 Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:55 PM

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Ha ha ha! That's coffee all over the place, Cpt.!  :Smile_teethhappy:

I'd say the Black Prince is a good British tank- even if the spud gun sometimes puts a downer on things. There are times when you've no option but to stand and fight- that's when you get to see the dpm stats for the bollocks they really are. You don't get to deliver your damage- you're too busy being dead after Ivan's two or three shotted you...

Still, like I said, there's a huge amount of satisfaction to be had when it all goes right. I've just played a game with a trio of Cromwells- it was epic! Seriously, the match maker must be tits up: the opfor had damn near all heavies, we had mostly mediums and lights. Didn't matter- I caught the Cromwell train and we (well, all right, they, with a wee bit of me getting in the way), cleaned house! No stealth sniping, no hiding at the back, we charged all over Karelia like we owned the place! :Smile-izmena:

If the lads in the Cromwells ever read this- Sirs, I salute you! :Smile_honoring: I was in the DPM Crusader with the raven logos, trying to keep up and not to foul your range. Best fun I've had with this game in a week!  :Smile_Default:

Edited by StClement, 08 February 2013 - 07:12 PM.


Cpt_Branko #39 Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:21 PM

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Cromwell can be insane if you have restraint. I find it a chore to restrain myself so much, the speed just prompts you to do crazy things.

Of course it's downright epic when you circle one of those hightier heavies, hitting it continously, without it having a chance to hit back. Or once when I stopped 5 tanks attacking by firing from the bushes at their flanks and continously relocating... and so on.

However, it's overall safer to place me in a Churchill, so I can't rush like a jerk and die a fiery death. Regardless, I manage to somehow lead the attack and be the first one to encounter the enemy in a Churchill I / III, somehow. Still, I think I do well with them.

Kyphe #40 Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:51 PM

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me in my crom
http://dl.dropbox.co...flying tank.gif

Edited by Kyphe, 08 February 2013 - 11:59 PM.






Also tagged with Crusader, tierfivetanks, t5tanks, lighttanks

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