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merkava 4 comparison

merkava

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ariel250 #1 Posted 16 February 2013 - 11:44 AM

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hey . i have heard from many people that the leo , abrams , T-90 and challenger are the best modern MBTs yet my favorite is the merkava so far .
it's firing system is so far the most advanced and allows shooting at helicopters from far away with all kinds of shells including regular HE .
it has a thermal sleeve which allows the gun to maintain high accuracy after more than a few shots and other tanks just dont have it.
it's armor is highly sloped and on turret it takes about 50% of the total volume of the turret + it gives an incredibly effective defense against top-attack
missiles . the tank can jam the missiles and make them just drop to the ground and if it doesnt work then just destroy them mid-air near the tank
no matter what shell .
it has a rear compartment which allows extra shells to be stored or 10 crewmen in case there are soldiers under fire .
the merkava uses MG253 which is an israeli 120mm smoothbore gun that can fire LAHAT , APAM both israeli missiles and HESH .
the APAM's mode is selected first and then it either flies above the target and creates 6 airburst explosions or effectively destroy a structure or destroy helicopters.
the LAHAT is a supersonic missile that has 2 options . top-attack against helis and boats and direct hit or top-attack against tanks . it's range is 8km and it's a tandem.
what i am asking is why are the other tanks considered better than merkava when they dont even have a better protection than it or fire power.

note to grammar nazis : if you see any grammar mistake please fix it .

Mezzou #2 Posted 16 February 2013 - 11:48 AM

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pretty much every modern tank can do what the merkava does^^

ariel250 #3 Posted 16 February 2013 - 11:53 AM

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no other tank can hit another tank at range of 8 km and they cant fire LAHAT , APAM .
merkava's armor is much thicker and more sloped advanced composite armor
so far no other tank has can destroy incoming shells/missiles in mid-air a few meters away from the tank itself . no doubt it has much more obvious pros than other tanks

Edited by ariel250, 16 February 2013 - 11:55 AM.


jetpack5 #4 Posted 16 February 2013 - 12:03 PM

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View Postariel250, on 16 February 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

no other tank can hit another tank at range of 8 km and they cant fire LAHAT , APAM .
merkava's armor is much thicker and more sloped advanced composite armor
so far no other tank has can destroy incoming shells/missiles in mid-air a few meters away from the tank itself . no doubt it has much more obvious pros than other tanks


I like the Merkava too- because of its unreal crew protection (best in the entire world)
Israel is a small country compared to its "enemies", they need every man (and woman) -

And my favorite tanks are 1. T-90 2. Leo 2  3. Merkava

and this M1 Abrams is just ******  :Smile_popcorn1:

Dziok #5 Posted 16 February 2013 - 12:03 PM

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Go home Merkava you're drunk   :arta:

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ariel250 #6 Posted 16 February 2013 - 12:12 PM

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View PostDziok, on 16 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Go home Merkava you're drunk   :arta:

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this is merkava 3 . not even merkava 3D BAZ KASSAG that has 4th generation armor . it was hit in it's side and then in the rear by a few kornet E missiles .


back to the topic , my question was why are other tanks considered best over merkava 4 2011

Edited by ariel250, 16 February 2013 - 12:13 PM.


Tonyb1968 #7 Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:05 PM

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You know that most (Soviet) Russian Modern MBT's have been able to fire missiles at 8km's for decades? So its not a new invention and hasnt really proved effective in combat.
What you need to look at is how well these other MBT's have developed and how well they have faired in armoured warfare, most of the above have been tried and tested and were developed for tank v tank (cold war) battles, you can say that the Merkava has some advantages but really does it?
Anti helecopter missles? ok if you see a helecopter its good but the chances of seeing one before its put an anti tank missle into the back/side of you is going to be pretty rare or if its a laser guided missle you really are screwed, then you need to jam its frequencies.... EW (or electronic warfare works 2 ways), you cannot just jam all the frequencies unless you want to make your tank a BIG target, and laser guided missiles are the death of most things in warfare, mark and gone (not forgetting wire guided items either).

All tanks have pro's and con's, the 120mm is basically the same gun as on the Lep2/M1A2 etc, and the hesh gets me, afaik you cannot use HESH rounds in a smoothbore gun, hence the reason only the British use them (rifled guns).

ariel250 #8 Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:48 PM

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View PostTonyb1968, on 17 February 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

You know that most (Soviet) Russian Modern MBT's have been able to fire missiles at 8km's for decades? So its not a new invention and hasnt really proved effective in combat.
What you need to look at is how well these other MBT's have developed and how well they have faired in armoured warfare, most of the above have been tried and tested and were developed for tank v tank (cold war) battles, you can say that the Merkava has some advantages but really does it?
Anti helecopter missles? ok if you see a helecopter its good but the chances of seeing one before its put an anti tank missle into the back/side of you is going to be pretty rare or if its a laser guided missle you really are screwed, then you need to jam its frequencies.... EW (or electronic warfare works 2 ways), you cannot just jam all the frequencies unless you want to make your tank a BIG target, and laser guided missiles are the death of most things in warfare, mark and gone (not forgetting wire guided items either).

All tanks have pro's and con's, the 120mm is basically the same gun as on the Lep2/M1A2 etc, and the hesh gets me, afaik you cannot use HESH rounds in a smoothbore gun, hence the reason only the British use them (rifled guns).
I have read about those soviet old AT missiles and you even know how it works? you need 20,000 simulated fires to gain the skill to operate the missile and you need 20 simulated fires to maintain the skill . those missiles are not 8 km max range , maybe they are 2-5 km range and they are guided by optics and the chances of them hitting at max range are lower than 40% .
the merkava has TROPHY which also uses a jammer which proved successful in tests against laser guided missiles produced by US and russia .

the LAHAT needs minimum training and very few simulated fires a week . the Knight 4 FCS can detect helicopters from miles away and inform the crew and also the merkava has a data link system developed in israel that connects the tank with the whole battalion , the commanders, field commanders , IFVs, recon jets , helis , planes - all of these , and that way they can even report on what's going on not only in radius of 8 kms but also 40 or 50 .

in case the jammer couldnt jam the missile then the hard kill destroys it .

Tonyb1968 #9 Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:38 PM

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Hmmm ok let me put this another way...

On November 12, 2009, PhD Vladimir Korenkov, who led Russian state unitary enterprise “Basalt” from 2000 to 2009, stated that “The Israeli system of active protection of tanks, “Trophy”, as any other similar systems, can be evaded”. One of the activities of this enterprise was to develop rocket-propelled grenades, designed to destroy modern armament. The rocket-propelled grenade RPG-30, according to Vladimir Korenkov, is designed to overcome these tank defense systems.[15]
In response to concerns that the RPG-30 had fallen into the hands of Hezbollah fighters, Israel Defense reported that the Rafael weapons development authority developed a defense system called the "Trench Coat" that can counteract the RPG-30, by utilizing a 360-degree radar to detects all threats and, in the case of one, launch 17 projectiles, one of which should strike the incoming missile.[16]


This is the thing with high tech on the battle field, high tech normally loses out to low tech for many reasons, this includes battlefield radars which can be easily jammed (small box of tricks that can mess up what the radar does, not hard and usually very effective man carried), for measure there will be a counter measure, this is why armour is being continuously developed to counter threats, technology is expensive, just look at the cost of a tank v the cost of an anti tank missile, you can say that Trophy counters anti tank missiles, but EW counters trophy and trophy means its a hot target (even semi passive radar).

Where as developements in anti tank systems like trophy are good they are not cost effective and have yet to really be proven against modern weapons and you still wont survive a good hit from another tank using DU/Tungsten rounds which this tank really has not been put up against yet, its not been designed to fight ultra modern battle tanks as it doesnt have to, its neighbours use older soviet built weapons (T72's, T80's T54E's) and Egypt has a few M1A1's (none composite armour and now doubt the 105mm gun).

Also most people will defend the tank of their nation more than any other, doesnt mean its the best even with a lot of gadgets on  :Smile_blinky: but never underestimate the "other" MBT's out there that were fully developed for tank warfare in all theaters, plus remember that the Merkava is more of a universal armoured vehicle, having a passenger department has a lot of drawbacks.  :Smile_sad:

ariel250 #10 Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:12 PM

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EW wasn't proven against trophy and to correctly test it they need the trophy system which is not being sold

Tonyb1968 #11 Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:04 PM

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EW will defeat Trophy, its one of the fastest growing ways of warfare (has been for years really), the way these things work is system A beats counter system A so they develope counter system B which beats system A so then you get a system B which beats counter system B (and it goes on), its also a lot cheaper, never think any system is fully protected, it isnt and it doesnt take long to neutralise it either.

As per your other thread in Modern Vehicles, you support your country well but dont really understand the ways of warfare that well, Rafael build some good stuff and are no doubt one of the leaders in their field just do not underestimate any other armour/counter/portable weapon system, for instance the old russian atgm's were laser guided, biggest downfall to laser guided systems? LoS and bad weather conditions.

And your statement about the jamming and the missile dropping to the ground? Doesnt work that way, the Missile will carry on in the direction it was jammed until the propellant runs out so hence you have 2 counters in Trophy, the jammer and the destroyer, if you jam and it comes your way still you destroy it, if it doesnt then you dont.
I would also point out that its been pointed out in the other thread about the use of the Merkava 4, its a terrain specific tank (as I pointed out, unlike most other modern MBT's which are multi purpose) and that in itself can be a serious pit fall (doesnt mean its not bad but as the design is a universal armoured vehicle rather than an MBT.....)

ariel250 #12 Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:51 PM

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listen I don't want to sound like a complete moron by saying this but I dont know what is EW . i am not familiar with this term .

also the reaction speed of the trophy is very quick . once a missile is fired towards a tank , the laser warning system and radar inform the crew and it just waits till it gets near the tank so the hard kill can destroy it .
I dont think you should underestimate the system's performance .

_bt_ #13 Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:59 PM

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Merkava has something that no tanks have. It has a toilet inside the tank. It is better. Case closed. :)

OldIronsides #14 Posted 18 February 2013 - 07:26 AM

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View Postariel250, on 17 February 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

listen I don't want to sound like a complete moron by saying this but I dont know what is EW . i am not familiar with this term .

also the reaction speed of the trophy is very quick . once a missile is fired towards a tank , the laser warning system and radar inform the crew and it just waits till it gets near the tank so the hard kill can destroy it .
I dont think you should underestimate the system's performance .

EW = electronic warfare.

Hmmm, "once" is a very precise description of that system's reaction time...

Discussing at that level of specific information is like trying to convince people to stop doing the lemming train. Either use proven figures and comparable testing results (which don't exist for most things) or don't pretend to be able to really figure out which armoured vehicle makes the best MBT in the world - with information solely based on propaganda and marketing strategies.

ariel250 #15 Posted 18 February 2013 - 01:59 PM

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ohh electronic warfare . okay lemme tell you something . if lets say there is an EMP explosion somewhere then all electonics will just get fried , right? well not armored electronics .
the electronics can be protected safely if the are covered by metal of a certain minimal thickness but it doesn't need a thick layer to be protected . if you see pictures of the merkava 4 with the trophy then you'll see that it isn't open . it is protected because of threats of being hit by small caliber guns ( 7.62 to 25 mm ) . the radar itself and the laser detection system are also protected .
means they wont be "fried" . a large EMP missile that can take out the electricity of a very large area like a small country may be able to "fry" those systems since they are not protected with such huge layers .
and even if it does work then it doesn't mean that the tank will be penetrated .
the merkava so far has the thickest and most advanced armor in the world .

in 2006 the merkava 4 actually proved itself while many people think it lost .
during that war , over 500 soviet Kornet E missiles were fired at the israeli merkavas and the merkava 4s were prioritised as primary targets . 57 kornet missiles hit merkavas of which 22 hit the merkava 4s and also many RPGs hit them .
only 2 merkava 4s were destroyed which means every merkava survived 10 kornet shots before being penetrated .
with any other tank the casualties would grow to 20 tanks .

Tonyb1968 #16 Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:58 PM

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*sigh*
So the Merkava has caught up with the rest of the world which has had EMP protected electronics for over 50 years..... (EMP= electro magnetic pulse)

EW is anything to do with radio frequency and a bit more, so from basic radio intercepts to jamming and over coming electronic systems (you can add cyber attacks to that now also).

Did you know that when they build the first challenger tank that they fired over 800 rounds of different calibre ammunition at it (mainly soviet), no penetrations, that was back in the 1980's and they replaced that tank with a better armoured vehicle that has only had one loss in its career and that was a blue on blue (Hesh round).
Then we have the Challenger 2 in Basra that took over 70 RPG hits with 0 penetrations..... (it had a broken track I believe which is why it couldnt go anywhere)

So far you have proved nothing, I can pretty much say that the Merkava wont have the best armour in the world, or the thickest, most of the western MBT's still have classified armour so you cannot even compare them with said tank, tbh its getting a little boring now  :Smile-bajan2: and you are proving absolutely zero by saying the Merkava is the best tank in the world where as its never seen proper tank warfare against semi modern armoured vehicles.
Now if you want to stop making the same topic several times on different parts of the forum it would be appreciated  :Smile_great:

ariel250 #17 Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:59 PM

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I made this topic once actually and it wrote it didnt add it and when i added it back up it showed me there were 2 same topics .
RPG 7 has quite low penetration and 70 hits is nothing much compared to 2006 .
as I already mentioned before . it is an average of 11 kornet missiles to penetrate the merkava and both merkavas that were hit were actually hit on the side armor in the hull

the first is digital photo and the second is merkava without modular armor .

here's a link to see how thick the merkavas armor really is http://www.google.co...5&tx=112&ty=110

http://www.google.co...t modular armor

Edited by ariel250, 18 February 2013 - 09:01 PM.


OldIronsides #18 Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:35 AM

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And still you can't compare sh*t dudes

Dude A: "Hey look, my favorite tank (I'm from country XYZ so I obviously have to be fallen in love with our MBT*) has suffered 123456789 hits by ABCDEFG rounds/rockets in this and that deserted spot of the world and was still operational. It must be the best MBT ever!"

Dude B: "Bollocks! MY favorite tank (which of course is the ZYX's army's tank, since I'm from ZYX!*) took at least one more hit and still looked like fresh out of the factory! So it's much better! And oh, btw., it has this crazy sh*t defense system which you can also use to make coffe. Beat that!"

Dude A: "Pah, the electronic systems of our tank are much better! I don't have any numbers to back this up, but it must be better... at least because our army and the weapons manufacturer say so! The testing results of your tank is flawed... somehow, I'm sure!"

Dude B: "Holy crap, you serious dude? Our tank is capable of doing... well... uhm... a lot of things! It has proven so in other deserted spots in the world, in totally different conflicts. Oh, and of course our army and the weapons manufacturer says so too! So stuff your crappy paper tank, our tank is much better because it has been proven... at least I think so... without any viable and realistic ways to compare them..."

*assumptions, file a lawsuit against me if you want =P

Edited by OldIronsides, 19 February 2013 - 11:37 AM.


ariel250 #19 Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:11 PM

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I didn't say merkava is the best and I asked you in the beginning to tell me which in your opinion is most favorite or best and why .
my favorite is the merkava though im not sure if its best but i told you some of its pros .
i am israeli but till 2 months ago my favorite tank was the leopard and before that the challenger .

merkava has 1 of the most advanced FCS (might not be number 1) and has the thickest most advanced armor layers which are still classified except the top layers which consist of ceramics , kevlar , a little bit nickel , some steel but the layers below are classified . and I showed you pictures of the thickness and when I saw pictures of the CR2's armor and leopard's armor I saw that their modular armor is almost twice thinner and they dont have much armor on top

merkava has a top speed the same as other tanks but has a poor acceleration because of its diesel engine .

ariel250 #20 Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:37 PM

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though... has pointed before... it does have a toilet unlike other tanks so that might just sum it up to 1 conclusion





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