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"10 calibers rule" for internal ricochet"


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aron75 #1 Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:58 PM

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Hi men! I've read in 8.4 change list this expression. Has anybody any idea what does it mean exactly?

Platypusbill #2 Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:01 PM

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When a shot penetrates, the shell travels 10 times its own caliber in length inside the tank, thus determining what modules it may hit. Sometimes, this rule gets mistakenly applied when penetrating spaced armour or external modules, such as the gun or tracks, potentially resulting in the shell disappearing before it can penetrate main armour and deal damage.

I believe this means they've fixed this bug (this one being officially acknowledged by WG).

Edited by Platypusbill, 20 February 2013 - 06:01 PM.


aron75 #3 Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:08 PM

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View PostPlatypusbill, on 20 February 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

When a shot penetrates, the shell travels 10 times its own caliber in length inside the tank, thus determining what modules it may hit. Sometimes, this rule gets mistakenly applied when penetrating spaced armour or external modules, such as the gun or tracks, potentially resulting in the shell disappearing before it can penetrate main armour and deal damage.

I believe this means they've fixed this bug (this one being officially acknowledged by WG).

THX :) Interesting, i've never heard about it I mean about this expression.

Frituurpan #4 Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:28 PM

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View PostPlatypusbill, on 20 February 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

When a shot penetrates, the shell travels 10 times its own caliber in length inside the tank, thus determining what modules it may hit. Sometimes, this rule gets mistakenly applied when penetrating spaced armour or external modules, such as the gun or tracks, potentially resulting in the shell disappearing before it can penetrate main armour and deal damage.

I believe this means they've fixed this bug (this one being officially acknowledged by WG).

15.000 battles and still learning :)
Thnx for the info Platy :)

Cobra6 #5 Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:04 PM

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View PostPlatypusbill, on 20 February 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Sometimes, this rule gets mistakenly applied when penetrating spaced armour or external modules, such as the gun or tracks, potentially resulting in the shell disappearing before it can penetrate main armour and deal damage.


And here there are masses of player complaining 0 damage hits do not exist :D

This is exactly what a "0 damage hit" is. A penetration without doing damage.

They do exist after all, who would have thought...

why do I get a negrep for this? Negrepping is for offensive posting, not opinions you personally disagree with

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Platypusbill #6 Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:10 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 20 February 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

And here there are masses of player complaining 0 damage hits do not exist :D

This is exactly what a "0 damage hit" is. A penetration without doing damage.

They do exist after all, who would have thought...

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Yep, it's just that most of the time it's explainable by gameplay mechanics, but it's obviously not working as intended all the time.

Cobra6 #7 Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:31 AM

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View PostPlatypusbill, on 20 February 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Yep, it's just that most of the time it's explainable by gameplay mechanics, but it's obviously not working as intended all the time.

True, most of the time it's a module/crewmember hit but apparently it's also the case that shells can completely disappear yet this was always denied by Wargaming and a lot of players.

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rav029 #8 Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:28 AM

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Ypiii Ya yeeeeeeeee

Now the good old russian tanks with mega troll calibers will for sure disable a tiger in one shot - what the hell - the tiger was OP anyway wasn't it? it sure was since any idiot with a russian tank couldn't blow it up in one hit ... let's make sure now that happens

conductiv #9 Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:49 AM

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View PostPlatypusbill, on 20 February 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

When a shot penetrates, the shell travels 10 times its own caliber in length inside the tank, thus determining what modules it may hit. Sometimes, this rule gets mistakenly applied when penetrating spaced armour or external modules, such as the gun or tracks, potentially resulting in the shell disappearing before it can penetrate main armour and deal damage.

I believe this means they've fixed this bug (this one being officially acknowledged by WG).
very interesting, I'm always up for learning more to perfect module hunting..

it would be even better if I could find the dementions of the ingame tank modules, how wide i s a ingame tank on average 2-3m? you would need a artillery shell caliber to punch through flanking modules. but the most suitable guns to hunt modules with would be soviet 100mm medium and 152mm TD guns. deu to a good balance between power, impact depth and RoF.

or get a lucky 1 ammo rack 1 hit using a 170 or 183mm TD gun

Platypusbill #10 Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:29 PM

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View Postconductiv, on 21 February 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

very interesting, I'm always up for learning more to perfect module hunting..

it would be even better if I could find the dementions of the ingame tank modules, how wide i s a ingame tank on average 2-3m? you would need a artillery shell caliber to punch through flanking modules. but the most suitable guns to hunt modules with would be soviet 100mm medium and 152mm TD guns. deu to a good balance between power, impact depth and RoF.

or get a lucky 1 ammo rack 1 hit using a 170 or 183mm TD gun
IIRC the IS-7's ammo racks, for instance, can only be hit frontally with 150mm+ guns.

conductiv #11 Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:22 PM

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View PostPlatypusbill, on 21 February 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

IIRC the IS-7's ammo racks, for instance, can only be hit frontally with 150mm+ guns.

that's good to know, though I have to be honest that when I'm facing a IS-7 from the front I'm far more concerned with penetration rather then inflicting module damage.

impact depth is important on tanks that don't sport a symmetric build (ammo rack on 1 side, radio on the other or something like that) , you need enough depth to hit the module on the other flank of the tank, this means that you have to punch through 60-75% of the tanks with. since tanks are ~6M long, you won't hit stuff like the engine from the front (unless the tank has a transmission block in the front) no matter the caliber (assuming you are right and that is in effect)

impact depth also greatly improves the reliability of causing the desired effect of flanking modules if it triggers on each module hit. a hypothetical example:
I'm going to assume a ISU-152 fires a BL10 shot, the shell has a caliber of 152 and thus penetrates 1,52M into the target, being a large caliber it has enough strength to 1 hit a module (I'm unsure if BL-10 has that force in respect to modules..it is just a example)

it hits a slim target (IS-3, ~2m wide again I do not know any exact numbers) in the flank, the IS-3 has flanking modules (2 feultanks flanking the engine) the shell will pass through 2 and stop inside the 3rd. 45% chance to hit each, there is a 17% chance no module damage will be done, a 9% chance all 3 will be hit

45% chance the engine will be KO'd, and a 75% chance the tank will be lit on fire by a broken feultank or engine ignition chance.

now lets assume a T44 100mm LB1 hits the same target, while the LB1 does not have 1-hit-module power, lets assume it does for this example hitting the same target:

100mm has 1m impact depth, hitting 1 feultank and stopping inside the engine hitbox. there is a 30% chance no module is hit, a 20% chance both modules will be hit.

there is a 45% chance of killing the engine and a 45% chance of KO-ing the feultank to cause a fire total roughly 50% of causing fire by either engine hit or feultank hit

as you can see there is a drastic increase in chance to cause fire (as all these modules have the chance to cause fire) if you have enough punch to KO a module on the other flank.

note: ammo racks too are often placed in a flanking setup in the hull, as such having enough oomph to force the save roll twice on every shot will drastically improve your chance of 1-hit-KO ing a tank (from a 33% chance to hit per shot to a 55% chance to hit) assuming the numbers displayed in the wiki are correct.

another hard to find stat is the damage done by each shell to modules (as this is not identical to the damage done to hitpionts), and the modules true hitpionts. as the other thing you need when hunting modules is power.

sv3rre #12 Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:30 AM

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Great news!

Private_Miros #13 Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:40 AM

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View PostPlatypusbill, on 20 February 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

When a shot penetrates, the shell travels 10 times its own caliber in length inside the tank, thus determining what modules it may hit. Sometimes, this rule gets mistakenly applied when penetrating spaced armour or external modules, such as the gun or tracks, potentially resulting in the shell disappearing before it can penetrate main armour and deal damage.

I believe this means they've fixed this bug (this one being officially acknowledged by WG).

Weird, I always thought that was a feature rather than a bug.

I'll have to adapt my play style significantly.

View Postsv3rre, on 22 February 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

Great news!

Don't rejoice too quickly. This will mean less successful side-scraping and other techniques you used to "eat" shells. It also means significantly more module damage (again).

sv3rre #14 Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:26 AM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 22 February 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Don't rejoice too quickly. This will mean less successful side-scraping and other techniques you used to "eat" shells. It also means significantly more module damage (again).

Meh, probably won't be too bad. I've always felt like sidescraping was more about "genuine" bounces instead of having your tank eat the shells. If I've understood this stuff correctly, this rule should only apply if and when the shell penetrates, and a good sidescrape is all about making the shot bounce. What I think will happen is that sidescraping will be pretty much unchanged, whilst lucky saves (or unlucky ones, accordingly) when shooting at the side of a tank from a more or less 90 degree angle will result in more consistent damage.


Besides, even if it does make sidescraping a little less useful (which as I have stated, I doubt) the same will apply to the targets I will be shooting at :)

Adwaenyth #15 Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:44 AM

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Even if a shell travels 1,5m inside a tank, at an impact angle of 70° that is still only 0,5m towards the interior. you might still get lucky at these extreme angles.

iztok #16 Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:41 AM

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Hi!

View PostPlatypusbill, on 20 February 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

When a shot penetrates, the shell travels 10 times its own caliber in length inside the tank, thus determining what modules it may hit.
Poor Germans with their low calibre (75mm and 88 mm), but high-pen guns. Their shells will travel only 0.75m and 0.88m inside the tank before disappearing, while "standard" soviet shells will go 1.22m.
Which one will have more chance to score a critical? <== that's the rhethorical question. :sad:

BR,  Iztok

sv3rre #17 Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:03 AM

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View PostAdwaenyth, on 22 February 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Even if a shell travels 1,5m inside a tank, at an impact angle of 70° that is still only 0,5m towards the interior. you might still get lucky at these extreme angles.

Besides, most tanks angled at 70° has a good chance of bouncing shots cleanly, negating the whole "10x length of shell" mechanic :Smile-hiding:

conductiv #18 Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:09 AM

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View Postsv3rre, on 22 February 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Meh, probably won't be too bad. I've always felt like sidescraping was more about "genuine" bounces instead of having your tank eat the shells. If I've understood this stuff correctly, this rule should only apply if and when the shell penetrates, and a good sidescrape is all about making the shot bounce. What I think will happen is that sidescraping will be pretty much unchanged, whilst lucky saves (or unlucky ones, accordingly) when shooting at the side of a tank from a more or less 90 degree angle will result in more consistent damage.


Besides, even if it does make sidescraping a little less useful (which as I have stated, I doubt) the same will apply to the targets I will be shooting at :)


sidescraping relied on ricochet angle, so it will barely be affected. however "failed" side scrape maneuvers will result in a larger chance of 2-module-hits on a rather large number of tanks.

it will increase the odds for all tanks that have a lot of modules closely packed together behind the tracks (IS series, T29,T32,M103, T110 series, KV series, churchills.) most tanks that have huge track coverage on their flank. all these tanks have the feultank or ammo rack close to the engine hitbox. in witch case a shallow angle penetration can target both if the 10 caliber rule through the tracks is ignored

sharpneli #19 Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:15 AM

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I was under the impression that this was changed already.

It used to tick from the first thing hit thus when you hit the end of a gunbarrel or the tracks at high angle the shell tended to just disappear.

AliceUnchained #20 Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:19 AM

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The entry reads: "Fixed failure "10 calibers rule" for internal ricochet".

Which would suggest this rule already was in effect but had some bugs (Gee what a surprise) that needed fixing. Yet going through posts here it seems people assume it will be some new feature.

Based on this single line it is rather impossible to tell what exactly had to be fixed, how they fixed it and how this will effect the game after the new patch hits. So let's assume less and try to stick with facts please. If anyone has accurate information on the bug fixed, and what it means I am all ears.