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Vertical Stabilizer vs. Gun Laying Drive


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kutyafal #1 Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:18 PM

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I read often about using one of these to aid accuracy or aim time. What I find strange is that I saw the VS mentioned to be used to aid aim time and the GLD to aid accuracy when from their in-game descriptions they are supposed to do the opposite. I thought VS aids aiming on the move so how can it help in reducing aiming time? I thought GLD had that benefit.

Specifically what I want to know is which aids in the faster shrinking of the aiming reticle (which is what I consider faster aiming)?

I would assume VS would reduce the jumping of the aiming reticle due to motion so it would of course contribute to better aiming but does it also effect the speed by which the reticle shrinks to full aim? Perhaps, VS reduces reticle dispersion?

I use GLD on a few of my tanks but haven't bought a VS yet thinking it would only benefit a more mobile medium or light tank in shooting on the move. So what's the story on these?

Thx!

Temptis #2 Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:27 PM

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VS reduces the max dispersion of the gun while moving/turning by 20%
that means that when you do stop to aim, the aiming circle will already be on 80% of the size it would be without, reducing the time it takes to reach maximum aim in addition to the accuracy bonus while not standing still.
EGLD reduces the aiming time by 9%

it is generaly advised to pick VS over EGLD when you have to make a choice

Mravka_tankist #3 Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:35 PM

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Definitely VS. I used to have GLD on my Maus, E-100 and Löwe since I was thinking ... slow tanks ... no need for VS, GLD would do the job. But I tested on the test server to change GLD with VS and I was amazed how big change there was in the performance of the tank. Go for Vertical Stabilizer. You can have both on the french tanks, since they have no use of shell rammers.

SMGJohn #4 Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:36 PM

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Vertical stabilizer only helps you gun to keep on target while driving however it doesn't work to good at full speed in your tank, not even modern gun stabilizers can hold the gun perfectly stabilized at 50+Km/h
However it's great if you want to encircle targets at certain distances, shoot at 20 Km/h - 40Km/h speed so the gun wont jump around as it usually would without a stabilizer installed.

The Gun Laying Drive only increases aiming time, besides that it has no other function. VS will only keep the gun at target over small bumbs at a limited speed

Mr_Holland #5 Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:37 PM

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If you play sniper mode then take Gun Laying Drive. If you drive a lot without using sniper mode then use Vertical Stabilizer. So it depends on your play style. I play most time in sniper mode so I choose GLD. But when I play my type 59 I use VS. If you play agressive with platoon. It's better to take VS.

Daed_ #6 Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:43 PM

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View PostTemptis, on 04 March 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

VS reduces the max dispersion of the gun while moving/turning by 20%
that means that when you do stop to aim, the aiming circle will already be on 80% of the size it would be without, reducing the time it takes to reach maximum aim in addition to the accuracy bonus while not standing still.
EGLD reduces the aiming time by 9%

it is generaly advised to pick VS over EGLD when you have to make a choice

So you haven't thought that aim time With VS doesn't change just because you didn't think that different size circles can take that same amount of time to shrink? Let me put it this way, a fully aimed circle is 1m, before aiming 3m, with VS before aiming 2m, aim time 2 sec, So the circle can shrink from 3m to 1m in 2 sec (speed 1m/sec) or from 2m to 1m in 2 sec (speed 0.5m/sec). What I mean is what you say is not quite true. Of course the moment you stop the aim circle with VS will be smaller but the aim time will not change.

Chocolover #7 Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:51 PM

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BTW read the game mechanics for "aiming time". To this mechanic you will sometimes need more than "one" aiming time so to say.
That's why VS>GLD in most situations but not in every!

Temptis #8 Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:07 PM

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View PostDaed_, on 04 March 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

So you haven't thought that aim time With VS doesn't change just because you didn't think that different size circles can take that same amount of time to shrink? Let me put it this way, a fully aimed circle is 1m, before aiming 3m, with VS before aiming 2m, aim time 2 sec, So the circle can shrink from 3m to 1m in 2 sec (speed 1m/sec) or from 2m to 1m in 2 sec (speed 0.5m/sec). What I mean is what you say is not quite true. Of course the moment you stop the aim circle with VS will be smaller but the aim time will not change.

no. the aiming "speed" does not change with VS.

Daed_ #9 Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:00 PM

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View PostTemptis, on 04 March 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

no. the aiming "speed" does not change with VS.

God dammit, THAT IS WHAT I SAID.
Its you who said the oposite!

View PostTemptis, on 04 March 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

VS reduces the max dispersion of the gun while moving/turning by 20%
that means that when you do stop to aim, the aiming circle will already be on 80% of the size it would be without, reducing the time it takes to reach maximum aim in addition to the accuracy bonus while not standing still.

Edited by Daed_, 04 March 2013 - 07:01 PM.


Temptis #10 Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:31 AM

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math, genius
when 2 cars drive the mile at the same speed and one gets a 20% discount on the distance, who will finish first?

kutyafal #11 Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:34 AM

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OK, so then it looks like the primary benefit of VS is to reduce shot dispersion on the move by reducing initial (max) aiming circle size. I guess it could also be beneficial if it also works to reduce aiming circle size during turret rotation while being stationary allowing a shot sooner depending on target distance (like Snapshot skill). If indeed it doesn't effect aiming circle shrinkage time to full aim (from any initial size) then I don't see the point in using it with the likes of Tigers, Panthers and such. It would of course benefit brawling heavies and meds in addition to GLD but could never replace GLD in it's function. Am I correct?

The reason I'd like to clear this up because I saw many such suggestions in online vids referring to the VS as reducing aiming time which as it seems is not the case.

But a question @Mravka_tankist: you said you tested it on test server. Did you actually measure aim time decrease with the VS? Or was it just a subjective feel for performance increase?

kutyafal #12 Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:48 AM

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One more thing. I think we need to clarify aiming speed (speed of shrinkage of aiming circle) vs. aiming time (time from start to full aim).

If aiming time is constant then VS has no effect on getting to full aim.

If aiming speed is constant then it helps since you already start from 80% instead of 100% dispersion.

So that is the question!

As far as I can tell GLD increasesaiming speed thus reducing time needed for full aim, but it could also be expressed as reduced aimingtime so both interpretations would result in the same effect.

With VS however it would make a difference whether aiming speed is coded in-game using actual speed of aiming circle shrinkage or rather the time it takes from full dispersion to full aim. In coding the letter would be easier to implement and I suspect this is what they do. In which case VS does not improve absolute aiming time. Example: with VS aiming starts from 80% dispersion instead of 100% but the speed of shrinkage is slower taking the same amount of time to shrink to full aim as without VS. Only benefit is less shell dispersion at the beginning of aim.

Would be good to know either way how the developers implemented this in code... Basically don't want to spend 600k on something that doesn't give me the benefit I need.

Temptis #13 Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:57 AM

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again: aiming speed is not changed by VS. thus aiming time is
(speed = distance / time, reducing distance by 20% at constant speed = reduced time)

VS replaces GLD when it's available (and a choice forced), as the bonus is bigger.

Znail #14 Posted 06 April 2013 - 07:55 AM

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View PostTemptis, on 05 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

VS replaces GLD when it's available (and a choice forced), as the bonus is bigger.
The exception would be for autoloaders as they get the bonus from the EGLD for every shot in the clip and from the VS only for the first shot, if they stop to aim.

Temptis #15 Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:12 PM

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View PostZnail, on 06 April 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

The exception would be for autoloaders as they get the bonus from the EGLD for every shot in the clip and from the VS only for the first shot, if they stop to aim.

just that an autoloader can not use a rammer, freeing up a slot to take both, if they can equip a VStab (with the exception of the 59-16 who can equip the rammer but not the VStab)

Fr3d27 #16 Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:42 PM

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i thought that VS does the same as GLD, only better.
GLD is for a stationary tank, but the VS is usable for an dynamic tank.
But both have the same result, only the VS is better improver for the gun.
I dont use the GLD anymore since is had this thought. Not on arty, or TD.

Temptis #17 Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:57 PM

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from the wiki :
  • Dead Gunner: If your Gunner gets knocked out the Gunner's skill will be set to 0% for the purposes of calculating the accuracy stat. The effect is mitigated if the Commander has the Jack of All Trades skill. The effect is removed if the Gunner receives first aid via a consumable. See the Crew page for more information.
  • Gun Damage: A damaged ("yellow") gun typically fires with halved accuracy for as long as it remains damaged.
  • Shooting: With each shot you take your accuracy temporarily gets reduced dramatically depending on the vehicle type, but your Gunner will immediately start aiming again.
  • Turret Rotation: Rotating the turret results in a temporary accuracy penalty. The exact amount depends on the installed gun and the speed you rotate the turret at.
  • Vehicle Movement: Moving your vehicle forwards or backwards temporarily reduces accuracy. The exact amount depends on the installed suspension and the speed you are moving at.
  • Vehicle Rotation: Rotating your vehicle left or right temporarily reduces accuracy. The exact amount depends on the installed suspension and the speed you are rotating at.
VStab impacts only the penalties for moving and turning (the last 3)
EGLD works always, just that the penalties for moving and turning stay in effect until you stop, which is when the gunner skill + EGLD determine the time it takes to reach maximum aim

joarg #18 Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:33 PM

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If you do NOT rotate your turret/move your vehicle, what do one need EGLD or VSTAB for?

Temptis #19 Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:43 AM

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View Postjoarg, on 09 April 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

If you do NOT rotate your turret/move your vehicle, what do one need EGLD or VSTAB for?
  • Shooting: With each shot you take your accuracy temporarily gets reduced dramatically depending on the vehicle type, but your Gunner will immediately start aiming again.


hoffmani #20 Posted 16 May 2013 - 02:58 PM

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View PostTemptis, on 04 March 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

no. the aiming "speed" does not change with VS.

View PostTemptis, on 05 March 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

math, genius
when 2 cars drive the mile at the same speed and one gets a 20% discount on the distance, who will finish first?

View PostTemptis, on 05 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

again: aiming speed is not changed by VS. thus aiming time is
(speed = distance / time, reducing distance by 20% at constant speed = reduced time)

VS replaces GLD when it's available (and a choice forced), as the bonus is bigger.

unfortunately, you were wrong.

'aim speed' is not constant. It actually depends on the aiming circle size when aiming starts.

First let's introduce an imaginary gun, say, it has an 'aiming time' of 2 sec as shown on the stats panel. Also, let's assume when fully aimed, its aiming circle size is 100%.

"The aiming time listed for each gun (in a specific turret) describes the time it takes for the aiming circle to shrink to a third of its size."  according to wiki

now, let's consider 2 cases:

Case 1: start aiming at 300% aiming circle size, then the circle size shrinks to 100% (a third of 300%) after 2 sec. the 'aiming speed' or 'shrinking speed' is (300%-100%)/2 = 100% per sec;
Case 2: start aiming at 600% aiming circle size, then the circle size shrinks to 200% (a third of 600%) after 2 sec. the 'aiming speed' or 'shrinking speed' is (600%-200%)/2 = 200% per sec;

So when aiming starts with a bigger circle, the circle actually shrinks faster.

That also means, in case 1, it takes 1 sec for  the aiming circle to shrink from 200% to 100%; while in case 2, if the circle continues shrinking after it reaches 200%, it will take only 0.5 sec to shrink from 200% to 100%.

Now let's go back to the VS problem. VS makes 'aiming circle starts out 20% smaller', as says the wiki. If our imaginary gun equipped with a VS, then in case 1, it will start at 300%*(100%-20%)= 240% aiming circle size. By definition, the aiming circle would shrink 2/3 in 2 sec, that gives us a reduced aiming speed of 80% per sec.

So yes, after install VS, the aiming speed IS slower, compare to 'no equipment' vanilla situation.

But don't worry, you still ALWAYS have a better aiming time after VS installed.

For example,the aiming circle takes 2 sec to shrink from 300% to 100% without VS. After VS installed, theoretically, aiming circle shrinks from 240% to 80% in 2 sec. But the smallest size the circle can go is limited at 100%, which means with VS the aiming circle reaches the 100% size a little bit before 2 sec, still faster than 'no equipment'.

On the other hand, about the 'VS or GLD' thing, I'd say it's rather complicated to determine which is better, without knowing someone's playing style, or on what vehicle/gun, even on which map or what strategy's been used. Also there is a flaw in the related information on the wiki:  the phrase 'aiming circle starts out 20% smaller' is rather ambiguous. For example, if the original aiming circle size starts  at 120%, with VS it will be '20% smaller', then it will start at 96%, even smaller than the size of fully aimed, which is not possible! That is something that I do hope devs would give us some explain.

Edited by hoffmani, 16 May 2013 - 03:01 PM.