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Research Results: Leopard 1


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Gaulwa #1 Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:18 AM

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Greetings Commanders!

Last year, I was dispatched by The_Challenger to research a couple tanks you might have heard of.These vehicles have now been approved by our development team, Today, I am going to share some of our research results which might interest you guys :), starting with the Leopard 1.

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First of all, finding a proper Leopard 1 has been a bit difficult, mainly of course because it entered service in 1965 with modern equipment. We couldn't introduce the final series in-game, so we looked for prototypes from 1959-1962.This one in particular is of the last prototype from Workgroup A. It is usually called "Work Group A, Prototype II"
This one of the very last Prototype II, right before they launched production of the Zero series in 1963, leading to the Leopard 1 you all know.

I also have interesting Data on an early A II prototype, but this will have to wait for another time.

Size measurements of the tank and armour angle:
(This is only part of the data, but it will give you a good understanding to the extent we research our in-game models. All size measurements are in millimeters)
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For the most curious:
upper front plate is 70mm
lower front plate is 50mm
Sides are 35mm
Rear is 25mm

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And of course, once everything is measured, we send the data to our developers, and after a bit of magic & witchcraft, you get the Tier 10 Medium tank Leopard 1:

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The most observant will see a couple differences between the pictures and the in-game models. This is actually because while the hull was more of less final, the turret was not, and still had to be modified for new optics. The turret and extra bits are actually based on the Leopard Prototype located in the Koblenz Museum:

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That's it for today! See you next time :)

Gaulwa #2 Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:22 PM

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Pictures replaced with higher quality ones. This post is now 20% cooler.

Ronineter #3 Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:25 PM

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View PostBlanchard, on 27 March 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Pictures replaced with higher quality ones. This post is now 20% cooler.
You need this to make it 20% cooler.

Spoiler                     

Personnaly the leopard 1 is one of my favorite tanks.

Here have a pic of me in 2006 next to one.

Spoiler                     


The_Challenger #4 Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:36 PM

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View PostRonineter, on 27 March 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

You need this to make it 20% cooler.

Spoiler                     

Personnaly the leopard 1 is one of my favorite tanks.

Here have a pic of me in 2006 next to one.



Haha Awesome  :smile:

erik4boss #5 Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:52 PM

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Awesome job mate!

Panocek #6 Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:04 PM

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To make it right... Tier 10 "Leopard" will have turret based on one if its prototypes?

ilhilh #7 Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:42 PM

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Interesting - thanks! :)

Elethiomel #8 Posted 28 March 2013 - 12:56 AM

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View PostBlanchard, on 27 March 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

The turret and extra bits are actually based on the Leopard Prototype located in the Koblenz Museum:

As long as they are not cut in half like the Koblenz Leopard...

Tuccy #9 Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:44 AM

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The measurements are for sure scale modeler's bonanza - cannot wait for more :justwait:

Pity there are no turret data, but I guess gauge had a hard time coping with the complex shape...

Ry0ken #10 Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:08 AM

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Hiya Blanchard,

nice information. But did you tell the devs that the mirrors are only put up when driving on roads and are put down when in field? I just fear they will screw up the gun depression because of the game modell not featuring retractable mirrors. Or will the mirrors be kinda no clipping with the gun in the modell?

PS: I now also bought the Panther tank book of Jentz and he also always states -8° to +20° for the all the Panther turrets including the Schmalturm! Only exception is Panther Schmalturm with 8.8 mounted which was only built as a wooden modell but had -8° to +15° listed in demand note. Can you please tell the devs to correct PantherI and PantherII? As it stands only Panther-M10 has correct values.

Edited by Ry0ken, 28 March 2013 - 01:36 PM.


Gaulwa #11 Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:38 AM

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View PostPanocek, on 27 March 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

To make it right... Tier 10 "Leopard" will have turret based on one if its prototypes?

Yes, as far as I know, Tier 10 "Leopard" will use the turret installed on the Koblenz prototype.
This turret is the "final" version used for the Zero series (the very first 50 production units of Leopard 1)

Ry0ken #12 Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:38 PM

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View PostBlanchard, on 28 March 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Yes, as far as I know, Tier 10 "Leopard" will use the turret installed on the Koblenz prototype.
This turret is the "final" version used for the Zero series (the very first 50 production units of Leopard 1)
Please can you answer my questions to?

Mourning76 #13 Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:17 PM

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Bump!Ry0ken has a point....

Gaulwa #14 Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:47 PM

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View PostRy0ken, on 28 March 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Hiya Blanchard,

nice information. But did you tell the devs that the mirrors are only put up when driving on roads and are put down when in field? I just fear they will screw up the gun depression because of the game modell not featuring retractable mirrors. Or will the mirrors be kinda no clipping with the gun in the modell?


Right, sorry for not replying earlier. I was not aware of this, and I will forward the information directly to the devs. To be honest, I would be very surprised if the mirrors were to block the cannon.

View PostRy0ken, on 28 March 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

PS: I now also bought the Panther tank book of Jentz and he also always states -8° to +20° for the all the Panther turrets including the Schmalturm! Only exception is Panther Schmalturm with 8.8 mounted which was only built as a wooden modell but had -8° to +15° listed in demand note. Can you please tell the devs to correct PantherI and PantherII? As it stands only Panther-M10 has correct values.

I own the same book and this has already been escalated. To be perfectly honest, this isn't the only case, and some French turrets are also awaiting modification in that regard.

Tuccy #15 Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:59 PM

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re. the depression, there is also a point with Panther turret - while gun can be FIRED at -8°; it cannot be loaded - max. depression for loading was -6°.

Gaulwa #16 Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:53 PM

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http://tau.rghost.ru...ceb7e/image.png

based on the book "Panther and it's variants" Ausf A and G had -8/+18 elevation. Exact data may varies depending on the sources, and sometimes devs have to make a choice.

Regarding schmalturm, you are right and devs are looking at it. It isn't official, and obviously I am contractually bound to secret, but some elevation changes are planned very soon.

Magitech #17 Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:41 PM

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View PostTuccy, on 28 March 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

re. the depression, there is also a point with Panther turret - while gun can be FIRED at -8°; it cannot be loaded - max. depression for loading was -6°.
Revolver mags cant be loaded from the inside IRL, still has nothing to do with in game if you ask me.

Tuccy #18 Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:31 AM

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Actually they can, but it is slow and painful (in the AMX-13 style turret) so it was preferred to reload from the outside.
In the US case, the revolver was located beneath the gun, so reloading was significantly easier :)

The entire ammo storage would be an interesting topic for another day, what with ready rack and the rest...

Gaulwa #19 Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:59 AM

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View PostMagitech, on 28 March 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

Revolver mags cant be loaded from the inside IRL, still has nothing to do with in game if you ask me.
Following what Tuccy said above, information are unclear for turrets FL-10 and FL-11. (AMX 13 75mm), but I own every plans and manuals for the FL-12 turret (AMX 13 90 and every other version afterward) and it clearly says you can reload from inside.
Gunner and Commander both have access to mechanic loading controls (no electric system, the autoloader is fully manual) in order to get a shell from one of the magazines on the loading tray.
Then the commander activate a lever to load the shell. Gunner aim, and fire.

The tank possess 12 pre-loaded shells available immediately, plus 5 shells inside the turret the commander can take and place on the loading tray behind him. "It is also possible to reload a magazine from inside." is a direct quote from the turret manual, but I suspect what they do not say, is only the commander can reload the left magazine, and only the gunner can reload the right one.
The operation probably require them to stand on their knees atop their seats and isn't the most comfortable one, but this is nothing serious to fuss about, at least, they are seated most of the time.

Extra shells can be taken out of the reserve through open holes in the turret basket.

Ry0ken #20 Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:16 PM

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View PostBlanchard, on 28 March 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Right, sorry for not replying earlier. I was not aware of this, and I will forward the information directly to the devs. To be honest, I would be very surprised if the mirrors were to block the cannon.
I own the same book and this has already been escalated. To be perfectly honest, this isn't the only case, and some French turrets are also awaiting modification in that regard.
Thanx in real life where tank combat is more long distance it may not be that crucial. But with the game engine/map design forcing close quarters gun depression is absolutely essential for the German medium tank line because they can not circle the enemy and are forced to fight most enemys including heavy tanks up front. Hull down is a must. It's not that important for the brawlers like T44/T34-2/French because I do not need those few degrees more when I'm at the enemy tanks side or rear and his tank fills the whole screen. Plus T44/T34-2/French are way smaller so depression is not that improtant to them as for the taller Panther tanks. Due to bad agility, insufficient camo value, big silhoutte, weakspots, insufficient frontal armor and so on playing PI/PII is hard enough allready. I always think of the Panther tank as a very tall sniper guy, with a red jacked, no kevlar vest, who can not lower his gun, and has to hit his target between the eyes ten times...  :harp:

View PostTuccy, on 28 March 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

re. the depression, there is also a point with Panther turret - while gun can be FIRED at -8°; it cannot be loaded - max. depression for loading was -6°.
Yeah and the Panther also could not turn its turret when it stands on a sideslope of more then +/-5°! But the WG devs have etablished a very nice double standard in my eyes. Everything that "can" be treated in a bad way for the Germans will be implemented, good traits as suspension are not implemented. Same goes for the spaced armor doors of the PzIV - "Hey Heinz let the doors open so Ivan can shot us better!"  :tongue: Why not modell all hatches open on KV tanks to?
While on the other hand the IS tanks had two component round taking immense time to load - yet this is not reflected in the game. Also I would wonder about the loading capability in those crammed T44/54 turrets, can they load at any angle? Has anyone looked at crew exhaustion due to working in extremely limited room? I also bet Russian tanks had several flaws that got looked over! So at least the devs could make the Panther tanks FIRE at -8° to +18/20° and RELOAD at -6° to +18/20°.

Edited by Ry0ken, 29 March 2013 - 03:20 PM.





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