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MBTs - Which would you choose?


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ariel250 #21 Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:34 AM

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since T-90s have weak armor and are a total fail in desert , and also have weaker penetration and the FCS isn't better than western ones then I'd say that T-90 is out of the list .

my list:
7xMerkava 4M . 2xLeopard 2A6 . 1xChallenger 2E

merkava because of armor , FCS , auto-tracking , 8km range with LAHAT , amazing resistance to rough ground such as the basalt fields in the golan , high sustainability against missiles and APFSDS-T (in 2006 it could sustain a lot of missiles in the same area before being penetrated and kornet is ineffective against 1 mark 4 if 1 or 2 shots are fired though a third can penetrate due to high penetration of the missile) . amazing performance in urban warfare due to the less cumbersome MG253 L44 gun (better m/v than abrams) and new soft and hard kill countermeasures .

Leopard 2A6 because of the L55 gun which can reach higher ranges if missiles are not used .

Challenger 2 because of rifled gun . it is also accurate but can fire the cheap HESH rounds that are very lethal against personnel and road mines and IEDs .

another option is to reduce the merkava to 5 and add 2 M1A2 abrams tanks because of the gas turbines . thanks to the turbines , the tank can accelerate very quickly and it allows it to flank easier or change positions faster .

Bluedragon777 #22 Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:51 PM

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6 leopards 2a7+
1 t-90MS
2 t-84 oplot M
1 m95 degman

Edited by Bluedragon777, 15 May 2013 - 02:53 PM.


ariel250 #23 Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:55 PM

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View PostBluedragon777, on 15 May 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

6 leopards 2a7+
1 t-90MS
2 t-84 oplot M
1 m95 degman
leopard 2A7+ is suited for urban warfare and would operate poorly in open fields comparing to 2A6 which was designed for this . but removing it completely would be nonsense so keeping 2 would be nice .
T-84 oplot and M95 degman are inferior to western tanks in terms of armor and technology and I believe the T-90MS is just an attempt to modernize T-90As .
the T-90MS is still using SACLOS missiles for ranges of 6km . not the best range and an old and quite ineffective guidance system .
this means that the T-90MS must stay still for 30 seconds if it shoots at max range and this is more than enough for an enemy tank to find it , fire and hide . and it's also ineffective now due to standard smoke screens .

Bluedragon777 #24 Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:24 PM

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I wouldn't say so.I don't think they decreased the leopards long range abylities.I would just say they increased close combat abilities.And to be honest If I had a choice I would have taken the t-95 and the leopard 2 140.

As for the t-84 oplot you have to keep in mind that the original t-80 > original t-90.And the t-84 oplot is like a 4th generation t-80.The M95 degman is also a new design with a  new turret israeli made reactive armor,and the israeli merkava is known to be the toughest tank today,it also has atgm rockets,a modern targetting computer an engine with a lot of horsepower,a new hull and all the modern gadgets.

Why did I also take the t-90MS?Because it has the turret from the t-95 which is why it was very interesting for me.
I also wanted to have a western/eastern mix.

Edited by Bluedragon777, 15 May 2013 - 05:33 PM.


ariel250 #25 Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:46 PM

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the T-84 oplot is quite interesting but even if it has improved armor of the T-80 it still doesn't reach the same level of the western tanks . the russian tanks weren't designed to be heavily armored . they were designed to be more maneuverable , lighter and smaller to avoid being hit . it is also technologically inferior so if it would face any western tank it would probably be destroyed when in range of the western tank . remember that M1A1 abrams tanks defeated T-72 fleets without many casualties . both tanks are obsolete today but the scenario will be similar if there were M1A2s against T-90A . and bear in mind that M1A2 is 1 of the worst tanks in the west for so many reasons .
T-90MS still has the same turret as the T-90A but with improved ERA and modular armor(?) and a rear compartment for shells in the rear of the turret .
the Leo 2A7+ has a not modular dozer which would add more weight and would limit the maneuverability of the tank so the 2A6 is the better option for open combat . also , I'd suggest replacing the 2A7+'s L55 with L44 or L40 gun to make urban warfare easier and about the 140mm gun , it would just create a logistical burden and wouldn't improve anything except increasing shell price and HE effect . also , the russian 125mm guns are inferior to 120mm guns because of lower m/v and weaker impact .

Bluedragon777 #26 Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:54 PM

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I don't care about logistics.You really shouldn't compare the t-80 with the t-72.Well the t-90MS turret seems enough upgraded to me that it might as well be a new turret.And the ERA armor is taken from  the t-95 which would have been a better tank than the current leopards in my opinion.

To be honest I would like any modern tank with a gun which has a larger diameter than todays standard  120-125mm guns.

Are the germans planning to make a leopard 3 soon?Or the british a challenger 3?

I also heard about the chinese type 99km with 140mm and 150mm guns.

Edited by Bluedragon777, 15 May 2013 - 05:55 PM.


FantasyKing #27 Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:43 PM

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If my company would be fighting a slow-motion war    jumping over dunes/hills and firing  at the same time in HD:

5x T90MS
5x Leopard Leopard 2A7

If in war :

6x K2 Black Panther
3x M1A2 Abrams
1x Merkava Mk.4

ariel250 #28 Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:55 PM

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higher diameter caliber guns won't have any pros in comparison with 120mm guns but will definitely have many cons . if not looking at logistics then the 140mm and 150mm will have lower penetration due to low muzzle velocity , accuracy , weight of each shell that decreases loading time and eventually ammo capacity . 140mm shells will force the tank to drop from 60 shells to 40 or 30 . in a war it is crucial and can affect the whole battle since only merkava has a rear hatch that allows a safer ammo transfer from a nearby HET . and that is also not very safe .
120mm is basically the optimal caliber . not too small and not too big .

now for fantasyking , K2 is less armored but it has decent gun and very good maneuverability so it is more suited for normal conflicts while merkava and abrams are more suited for winning a war though in different ways . abrams in quantity and merkava in quality although the mark 4M fleet will soon increase in another 300 tanks reaching a total of 660.

for a conflict I'd pick 6x leo 2A7 and 4x Type-90 or K2 black panther .
and for a war I'd pick 7x merkava 4M and 3x abrams

soulza #29 Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:59 PM

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easy  ,10 x challenger 2 because i would want to survive the battle
all the other tanks mentioned in this thread would not survive on the modern battlefield a tank fires before it sees its target ,all shots are lazer guided so your going to get hit.
the only PROVEN tank is the challenger 2 it can certainly give it out , but its the only tank that can take it as well.

Edited by soulza, 15 May 2013 - 09:02 PM.


SirCampAlotNor #30 Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:53 PM

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If im in a forrest, doing defencive combat, either: 10 Leo2A5/6, 10 Abrams or 10 Chally 2's.
Attacking: Leo2 or Abrams.

Urban: 10 Merk's or Chally's

Open desert: Chally or Abrams

ariel250 #31 Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:37 AM

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View PostSirCampAlotNor, on 15 May 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

If im in a forrest, doing defencive combat, either: 10 Leo2A5/6, 10 Abrams or 10 Chally 2's.
Attacking: Leo2 or Abrams.

Urban: 10 Merk's or Chally's

Open desert: Chally or Abrams
I'd actually agree about the forest thing . I think leopard will do just great in there . also , bear in mind that merkava was designed mainly for urban and desert while both fighting zones are being main priorities although it looks more like a 1 for urban warfare but the Rakiya tank will be exclusively for urban fighting so merkava 4 will remain in the sand and basalt , also , when Rakiya comes out I think the mark 4's and 3's guns will be upgraded into longer versions .
abrams also looks like a tank for urban warfare and the L44 helps it move more freely in the streets . the chally has quite a long gun so it'll run into a few problems from time to time .

as for soulza , the only time the chally's armor was really tested in battle was when it was hit by 7 RPG-7s , and half of these were RPGs against personnel meaning that it has a good explosive punch but very very poor penetration . remember that some abrams tanks are in afghanistan and deal with RPGs and IEDs on a regular basis and in 2006 many merkavas survived multiple ATGM hits and only 4 were actually penetrated by them but only after about 4-8 hits and those ATGMs deal way more damage than RPGs . and the tanks were fully repaired and are fully operational like nothing happened

Dreadmau5 #32 Posted 29 August 2013 - 07:55 PM

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Acually, I'd like to change my setup to 5 Leclercs, 5 Object 640 "Black Eagle", 3 CV9040 for scouting missions and 2 GRKPBV90120(CV90 with two 120mm mortars in the turret) for indirect fire.

Edited by Dreadmau5, 29 August 2013 - 07:58 PM.


ariel250 #33 Posted 30 August 2013 - 08:02 AM

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View PostDreadmau5, on 29 August 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Acually, I'd like to change my setup to 5 Leclercs, 5 Object 640 "Black Eagle", 3 CV9040 for scouting missions and 2 GRKPBV90120(CV90 with two 120mm mortars in the turret) for indirect fire.
the topic is about MBTs only and the limit is 10 , not 15 .
I'd suggest you to choose tanks that are battle proven or at least produced . Black Eagle is just another cancelled prototype , while Leclerc is a normal MBT that costs a LOT without having any edge over any tank . Leclerc's armor is suited to fight APFSDS-T rounds and is inferior in protection vs shaped charges such as HEAT shells or ATGMs .




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