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Lorraine - Better remove it


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Cocox #1 Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:39 AM

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Because it's the crappiest tank ever in this game. It's so crappy that I find really no joy in playing it. It only brings frustration to the point that I am ready to give up grinding for Bat Chat. A game should be fun NOT FRUSTRATING.

Examples of some recent battles:

VK Leopard passes by and shoots that Mk103 at me: Driver hit. Fire.

Arty shoots at me: splash damage of around 100hp. no modules hit all 3 crew members dead.

Type 59 comes at speed shoots once and rams me: I loose more than 50% HP and gun damaged, track broken. Few seconds later I'm dead.

PzIII (!!!) catches me reloading shoots that tier 3/4 gun of his a few times before I can shoot back. I end up with engine, ammo rack damaged and gunner injured.

The Lorraine is so weak that you end up as the favorite target even for the lowest tiers.

The Lorraine is too big, lacks armor, lacks camo, lacks agility, has poor traverse, low gun depression, low gun ascension(!!!).

To put it bluntly: the Lorraine can't run, can't turn, can't survive and can't fight!!!!

Yeah, you get some matches where all the stars align and you can do moderately well, but overall the tank has little utility apart from being the favorite tier 9 moving target.

No_One001 #2 Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:55 AM

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I know my friend , i played it on the test server 7 battles I've played only 1 out of five I had the opportunity to mean something.

1 of the battles I faced a T 50 I shoot him once made a lot of damage before i could aim again the T50 started to circle  and passing me, hitting me in the butt and side, I got killed by this scout WTF I said got realy frustrated, so much that immediately sold my AMX 13-90. I will think twice before i will go with this tree again, instead I grinded from the AMX 50-100 to the AMX 50-120, Great fun to play I love it

EnermaX #3 Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:56 AM

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I never played Lorraine, but doesn't it behave like a 50-100?

Dreadlord89 #4 Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:59 AM

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Man every french tank (light/meds) is a skirmisher, it means your pray is damaged tank, isolated tank without allies nearby and such. You cannot play loraine as regular medium tank.

Soft_Kitty_Warm_Kitty #5 Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:00 AM

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Much the same as my Leopard PTA, I am sure there is a target moving above me saying "kill me first, I have no armour"  :trollface:

Sringoot #6 Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:08 AM

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I share the same sentinement.

It's biggest problem is the camo rating. Everything sees you while you don't see them. This gave me huge problems before having 6th sence. Often taking 1000+dmg before you know it's happened, leaving your combat effectivness to nothing because every enemy tank shoots at you the second you join any combat. Now with 6th it's a bit better, but still you often can't shoot because after your first shot every enemy turn at you so you have to sit back and wait.


Had a really FUBAR game yesterday:
I was mid tier so I was keeping a lot of distance. I was on the boarderline of view range, waiting for opportunities to snipe. On the boarderline of viewrange, 5 of my team were fighting 5 enemies, I could see them all in front of me. I start to shoot. After my first shot, 3 of those enemies who were dealing with my team only meters in front of them, all turned their turret, all shot once at me ( 400m ) I'm dead. gg.


The lack of any armour is the second problem. Things like a stupid suicide t71 can take hundreds of your hp. Arty splashes can take hundreds. And once you are down to ~ 800 HP, you're dead, you can't engage a loner because it will two shot you in 10 seconds, while you can't finish him off before that.


The only way to fix this tank would be to give it better camo values. Or put it back to tier 8. I mean what's the deal, the 50100 which is practically the same tank, only slower, is at a tier lower. How does that make any sence?
Also giving it some gun depression would improve it a lot.


And don't give me double bush or sniping from far behind bush crap, how many times do you have such a bush where you have targets, and even then shooting through a non-see-through bush from medium range is real hard. Out of 6 possible shots you have time enough for 4/5, miss 1/2, hit tracks or 0 dmg 1/2 => you're lucky to score two damaging hits = 600dmg.


I keep on failing in Lorraine, my dmg per game is noob-low for a tier IX. 90% of my games solo and still I have a decent WR ( about 60ish ) So I like to think that my dmg is at least there where it matters ( something win6 does not show )


The good thing is I'm 35K away from unlocking Batchat. A tank which I'll like since scouting is my best perk in this game.


The day I sell Lorraine I'll do a happy dance or two.

Sringoot #7 Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:14 AM

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View PostEnermaX, on 16 May 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

I never played Lorraine, but doesn't it behave like a 50-100?

Yes, but compared to a 50100 the Lorraine's opponents compare like this:
- more view range => they see you faster
- better camo => you don't see them
- bigger guns => more dmg/shot
- more dpm => you die faster
- more high tier arty/tier X TD => more insta deaths
- more health => way more difficult to finish off loners
- more experienced players in higher tiers => they know how to deal with you better


View PostDreadlord89, on 16 May 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Man every french tank (light/meds) is a skirmisher, it means your pray is damaged tank, isolated tank without allies nearby and such. You cannot play loraine as regular medium tank.

There is a HUGE difference between every frank tank ( light/meds) and the Lorraine, namely camo rating. This is a world of difference, it's just uncomparable.


View PostPaganWarrior, on 16 May 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Much the same as my Leopard PTA, I am sure there is a target moving above me saying "kill me first, I have no armour"  :trollface:

How is the Leo's camo rating? Average from guessing? This makes all the difference. Also the Leo can snap shoot pretty good, comming out of cover. Good aiming time etc. You can't do this with lorraine.

No_One001 #8 Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:28 AM

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Sringoot

I agree with almost everything you say, the only problem I have with this, is:

Why issn't camo solely mentioned for stationary vehicles, It's rather stupid if you look at a distance of 70 mtr's and don't see a tank comming but he sees you all the time.

I would say get the bloody camo working as where it's meant for. Like TD's who are hidding in the bushes Arty who are barely moving.

A cammo net we used in the army only for mortiers< Arty and TD's

Any fool can see (even when he has an eye problem an upcomming tank especially those who are within a radius of 200 mtrs.

Nice thing though if I place a lot of bush on my tank and all kinds of other ammo got stelt machinery, wouldn't we all see the bush moving  :glasses:

Soft_Kitty_Warm_Kitty #9 Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:28 AM

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View PostSringoot, on 16 May 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Yes, but compared to a 50100 the Lorraine's opponents compare like this:
- more view range => they see you faster
- better camo => you don't see them
- bigger guns => more dmg/shot
- more dpm => you die faster
- more high tier arty/tier X TD => more insta deaths
- more health => way more difficult to finish off loners
- more experienced players in higher tiers => they know how to deal with you better




There is a HUGE difference between every frank tank ( light/meds) and the Lorraine, namely camo rating. This is a world of difference, it's just uncomparable.




How is the Leo's camo rating? Average from guessing? This makes all the difference. Also the Leo can snap shoot pretty good, comming out of cover. Good aiming time etc. You can't do this with lorraine.

Yep the Leopard has a pretty good camo value and I have it painted, but that still doesnt stop every and I mean every gun you face, no matter what tier penetrating you, 70mm hull armour and 50mm turret armour, means speed and camo are the only advantage/help you have and the number of times I have taken some damage and then been finished off by one shot from an arty is too sad to even think about.

cpttomik #10 Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:39 AM

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I have same feeling about Lorraine, I soly hate this tank. With AMX 13 90 I was placed in same battles and managed to do more then with Lorraine.

And the problem is Lorraine is huge and I mean really huge and have awesome tendency to be one shot by any aty it meets. I playe about 80battles and hanet found any idea how to play that tank. And i really wonder how it managed to get pass any reall life army tests, i would love to se the evaluations and oppinoins of the testers.

I am getting flustrated every game a have to play with it.

BueloProductions #11 Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:42 AM

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View PostCocox, on 16 May 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Because it's the crappiest tank ever in this game. It's so crappy that I find really no joy in playing it. It only brings frustration to the point that I am ready to give up grinding for Bat Chat. A game should be fun NOT FRUSTRATING.

Examples of some recent battles:

VK Leopard passes by and shoots that Mk103 at me: Driver hit. Fire.

Arty shoots at me: splash damage of around 100hp. no modules hit all 3 crew members dead.

Type 59 comes at speed shoots once and rams me: I loose more than 50% HP and gun damaged, track broken. Few seconds later I'm dead.

PzIII (!!!) catches me reloading shoots that tier 3/4 gun of his a few times before I can shoot back. I end up with engine, ammo rack damaged and gunner injured.

The Lorraine is so weak that you end up as the favorite target even for the lowest tiers.

The Lorraine is too big, lacks armor, lacks camo, lacks agility, has poor traverse, low gun depression, low gun ascension(!!!).

To put it bluntly: the Lorraine can't run, can't turn, can't survive and can't fight!!!!

Yeah, you get some matches where all the stars align and you can do moderately well, but overall the tank has little utility apart from being the favorite tier 9 moving target.
Please don't scare me, i'm grinding this branch too.

_TheMarkedOne_ #12 Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:45 AM

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Yea same here...that tank is just awfull...

cpttomik #13 Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:52 AM

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View PostBueloProductions, on 16 May 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Please don't scare me, i'm grinding this branch too.
Well Cocox doesnt lie... I love my AMX 13 90 and I was looking forvard to Lorraine, but then I bought it :/ I am just glad I didnt sold 13 90 and didnt transfared its crew to Lorraine.

Edited by cpttomik, 16 May 2013 - 08:55 AM.


Noxpara #14 Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:53 AM

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another lorraine is bad thread,
I'll copy my experience maybe it will help you achieve better results.

finished at 49% win with it. It was still increasing, I had 59% in the more recent battles with it
Need to say that i had 28% at one time,in the beginning. Hated every piece of it, almost raged sell.
I had some of my most epic games in it.
My first and only Radley-Walters.
The only time and tank in which I did 8000 dmg...(and not the time I got the R-W)
The first and only rule is to forget everything about 13-90 and not do anything that you did with that tank.
Never leave starting position until you load your first clip. Never try do do spots. You will see that arty oneshots decrease significantly.
Never be the first tank to be spotted, never be the first tank in a position, better not go to advanced position in the beginning.
In the first part of the battle just stay at ~400 meters and snipe from a bush, If you do it right no one can see/shoot you while you discharge 1-2 drums. Or you can alternatively w8 for scouts near your arty's.
In the second part when everyone is beaten up you can kill any tank if it has less than 60%-50% hp, and i repeat, any tank...including maus...
You just find a lonely beaten up tank and go finish him. If you do this correctly you take maximum one shot.
reload + repeat this step to a maximum of 4 times considering you are penetrated by an average 450 shot.
Now combine these 3-4 kills with the sniping from the beginning and you are looking at a nice 2000-3000 dmg dealt...which should be enough for your contribution.
I played it with vert stab+binocs+vents.
Crew with sixth+recon/snapshot+repairs/offroad+smoothride
Did over ~150k exp in a weekend playing like a maniac(with prem account) and got batchat.
The tank is really nice, give it a chance.
And dont judge it by its stock modules...most tanks are crap stock....
Best regards,
noxpara

Sringoot #15 Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:57 AM

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View PostNo_One001, on 16 May 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Sringoot

I agree with almost everything you say, the only problem I have with this, is:

Why issn't camo solely mentioned for stationary vehicles, It's rather stupid if you look at a distance of 70 mtr's and don't see a tank comming but he sees you all the time.

I would say get the bloody camo working as where it's meant for. Like TD's who are hidding in the bushes Arty who are barely moving.

A cammo net we used in the army only for mortiers< Arty and TD's

Any fool can see (even when he has an eye problem an upcomming tank especially those who are within a radius of 200 mtrs.

Nice thing though if I place a lot of bush on my tank and all kinds of other ammo got stelt machinery, wouldn't we all see the bush moving  :glasses:

The problem is the spotting mechanics. If a scout with good camo drives toward you, it will be spotted for example at 150m away. But the way the spotting mechanics work, if it just 'checked' when the scout was at 149 meters, the next time it ' checks ' it might be under your nose. 60km/h => 6 seconds is a long time at that speed.

Oh and everything always has some camo. Even when firing. Read up on the exact camo/spotting mechanics, they'll improve your gameplay.

No_One001 #16 Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:11 AM

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View PostSringoot, on 16 May 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

The problem is the spotting mechanics. If a scout with good camo drives toward you, it will be spotted for example at 150m away. But the way the spotting mechanics work, if it just 'checked' when the scout was at 149 meters, the next time it ' checks ' it might be under your nose. 60km/h => 6 seconds is a long time at that speed.

Oh and everything always has some camo. Even when firing. Read up on the exact camo/spotting mechanics, they'll improve your gameplay.


Thx Sringoot,

I will look into the mechanics since now I am a more serious player, and already started to be more than average player since 3k battles, that's tough getting better is one thing getting your stats bettered after playing for fun almost 9k of battles is realy hard thx for the tip.


Almost every time I play alone and that's even tougher.

Cheers

cpttomik #17 Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:16 AM

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View PostNoxpara, on 16 May 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

In the first part of the battle just stay at ~400 meters and snipe from a bush,

Well thx for your experience you are not the first to poiting this out. But i have the biggest problem with qouted part. When i tryto snipe with it even when hiden behind the bush from far i am beeing poted and primaried becasue "Hey it is lorraine, lets shoot that carboard junk!!" And the second problem even with 100% crew when I try to snipe always fully aimed from the 6 shots I have, 4 of them goes copletly away from target just because of game machanics, and from the 2 which hitted him only one deal usualy less then average dmg.

Arkhell #18 Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:24 AM

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Lorriane at tier 8 when it got released was perfect.

you had the choice between the fast reload en firing 90mm with 212 pen and the slower reload and slower firing 100mm with more damage and 232 pen, it was fast and it was a tier 8 medium giving it just the sweet spot it belonged into.

then the nerfing started. breaking the gun accuracy and aimtime, reload time, in clip reload and accuracy on the move to none excisting plus a HP nerf. then a while later it got pushed up to tier 9 with a slight hp buff, 90mm got removed reload time got cut with like 5 sec and accuracy on the move got bumped a bid.

so a perfect tier 8 med got broken so bad it wasn't any fun anymore on tier 8 and then it got pushed a tier higher without any actual compensation for it.

it's one of the tanks WG wants you to skip with free exp sadly.

MK1palmer #19 Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:30 AM

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Its French have you driven there cars.  :trollface:

Noxpara #20 Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:50 AM

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View Postcpttomik, on 16 May 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Well thx for your experience you are not the first to poiting this out. But i have the biggest problem with qouted part. When i tryto snipe with it even when hiden behind the bush from far i am beeing poted and primaried becasue "Hey it is lorraine, lets shoot that carboard junk!!" And the second problem even with 100% crew when I try to snipe always fully aimed from the 6 shots I have, 4 of them goes copletly away from target just because of game machanics, and from the 2 which hitted him only one deal usualy less then average dmg.

cpttomik,

From what you are describing, your problem is that you get spotted. I was able to do that trick without the getting spotted part most of the times.
I agree that once they see you you immediately become a target. thats why I was suggesting people wait before they go to a position, change flanks often and never be the front tank anywhere, unless you know theres a single battered tank there and you are relatively safe.
As for the gun, I have an average dmg of 1486 on it from 303 battles...i usually deal dmg with 4/6 shells, at least that's what I calculate before engaging a target, the last 2 are for dings/tracks. Ah, and never use autoaim, go for manual aim since that function usually targets bad spots which are hard to aim. those adidtional 2-3 seconds it takes you to manually discharge the clip really trade off in dmg.
You are sure you are using vertstab and binocs/coated? They help a lot.
best regards.

Edited by Noxpara, 16 May 2013 - 10:08 AM.





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