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More changes to the forum to come!


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Aodheus #1 Posted 27 May 2013 - 06:37 PM

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Hello everyone,

As the English team is currently recovering from an intensive community gathering event in Finland, I will take over their duties very briefly to announce a few changes to come to our forum structure.

Nothing to really worry about, as you will all keep your favourites areas and sections pretty much as they are right now.

However, in order to simplify accessibility and visibility of other languages forum, we will restructure the index of our forums. All languages, including English, will now be accessible from the index, as well as our eSport, Military, and Community Contributors area.

This change will come over the week, as we test out our option to make sure we do it right. In the meantime, do not hesitate asking here any question you might have, or tell us what you think of such change.


Thank you for your understanding,
Your EU Community Team.

AN225 #2 Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:25 PM

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Sounds like a good idea, it happens way to often that people post in other languages in English only section, promoting them is a good move for sure.
But now it's maybe bit of a mess.
1 English topic, 2 Polish, 2 English, 1 German, 1 French and so on...

Maybe instead of common index, make different for each language?
So if i have wot main page on German i would see only German section topics and the link for the international one?
Same for all other languages.

Aodheus #3 Posted 28 May 2013 - 09:26 AM

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View PostAN225, on 27 May 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Sounds like a good idea, it happens way to often that people post in other languages in English only section, promoting them is a good move for sure.
But now it's maybe bit of a mess.
1 English topic, 2 Polish, 2 English, 1 German, 1 French and so on...

Not sure what you mean there, as far as I can see right now it's basically all languages accessible from the top forum links, and the rest for the english speaking forums. Which looks, on our opinion, really messy. That's mainly what we would like to change.

View PostAN225, on 27 May 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Maybe instead of common index, make different for each language?
So if i have wot main page on German i would see only German section topics and the link for the international one?
Same for all other languages.

That's also something we would like to see yes, but as far as I know is impossible for us right now as we use the same forum structure to cover all languages. We are however looking at any option we could find to have players redirected to their language of choice depending on which language they pick on the portal.

Pastaiolo #4 Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:24 PM

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What i am currently seeing as forum index is quite awful, too much clicking to get into the usual sections of the forum.

IPaul72 #5 Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:29 PM

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Hello all
There as been changes made to the English forum section, the changes have been made to make it easier to navigate and will be applied to all language sections.
However, if there is any feedback could please leave it here your idea's and feedback will be welcomed  :smile:
Kind Regards
Your Community Team

TardWurst #6 Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:31 PM

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Omg you broke the forums :angry:

Lolleroman #7 Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:37 PM

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This is bad. Return it as it was before ASAP.

Cobra6 #8 Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:40 PM

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Personally speaking, not a good move.

I think we can safely agree, though many languages are spoken in the EU, the forum's main language is and has been since closed beta: English.
Even for us none natives English is the language of the internet basically.

Please return the forum to what it was before, this change is unneeded.

The layout before was convenient and there was nothing wrong with it. All the info needed clearly structured on the main page, and if you desperately wanted info or talking in your own language you'd go to one of the sub-forums.
The new layout is confusing, unnecessarily complex, clunky and serves no purpose to existing or new members.

Like said before, English on this forum is not "just another language", it's the main language. Not to mention most of us get it taught in school anyway from a very early age onwards.

View PostAodheus, on 27 May 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

However, in order to simplify accessibility and visibility of other languages forum, we will restructure the index of our forums.

You could easily do that by having a small section at the top called: "other languages"




In closing:
Please change it back the way it was before and next time you are thinking about making drastic changes like this ask the public first if it's even wanted. Could save you a lot of work and trouble.

Cobra 6

Edited by Cobra6, 30 May 2013 - 05:47 PM.


Banelord300 #9 Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:41 PM

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This will confues more people than helping them it, confused me as hell :amazed:  and looks very odd to look at.

Pastaiolo #10 Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:44 PM

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View PostIPaul72, on 30 May 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Hello all
There as been changes made to the English forum section, the changes have been made to make it easier to navigate and will be applied to all language sections.
However, if there is any feedback could please leave it here your idea's and feedback will be welcomed  :smile:
Kind Regards
Your Community Team

Getting more sections together is all good, what is not nice is the fact you didn't give priority to the english part of the forum, no matter what other says, that's the main language used on forum, and the one used usually between people from other countries.

If all, i would put what i see here

http://forum.worldof...rum/1467-forum/

in the index of the forum, right here

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/

Magecraft #11 Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:45 PM

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Really bad move imho, makes the forum very hard navigate and will definitely confuse any new users coming here. I realise I am a English user but maybe the normal site with links at the top to the various language section would have fulfilled requirements.

mondog #12 Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:46 PM

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There is a general rule of thumb for UI's: If it takes more than 2 clicks to get where you want to go, then its a bad UI. This forum requires allot more than 2 clicks to get where you need to be. It took me 5 to get here and I only noticed it because its was the last forum post.

While not everyone can speak English, its the most common language, the one most likely to be used by everyone and also the one enforced in the in-game chat channels. The forum should be consistent with that. Also, this change is really confusing. If your aim was for people to stop using this forum or not be able to find information you've done a good job.

Edited by mondog, 30 May 2013 - 03:48 PM.


Belizarius #13 Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:47 PM

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English is the universal language today. Not polish, not czesc, not turk, not magyar. English.

Main forum should be english.

IPaul72 #14 Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:06 PM

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Hello all
At the moment we understand it is a little confusing this is we we asked for constructive feedback  :smile:
However, at WG we don't want to appear to have discrimination or bias towards other languages.
Please continue to leave your feedback so it can be seen and we then can make adjustments  :great:
Kind regards
IPaul72

Cobra6 #15 Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:10 PM

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View PostIPaul72, on 30 May 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Hello all
At the moment we understand it is a little confusing this is we we asked for constructive feedback  :smile:
However, at WG we don't want to appear to have discrimination or bias towards other languages.
Please continue to leave your feedback so it can be seen and we then can make adjustments  :great:
Kind regards
IPaul72

You did not appear to discriminate towards other languages at all, anyone who honestly thinks so might want to wake up and smell the coffee that is called the internet.

Everyone coming onto the EU or NA forums expects the primary language to be English and everything else secondary. That is how it works on the internet in the West. Look at pretty much any other (game) related forum hosted in this territory.

All the replies in here saying that it is not wanted are constructive feedback. Just because the feedback does not agree with your opinion does not make it de-constructive or useless.
English is and has been the main language of the EU and NA community since this game went into beta.
On the internet and forums the universal language always goes above local languages as more people speak/understand/read/write it.

Cobra 6

Edited by Cobra6, 30 May 2013 - 04:31 PM.


Pastaiolo #16 Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:11 PM

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View PostIPaul72, on 30 May 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Hello all
At the moment we understand it is a little confusing this is we we asked for constructive feedback  :smile:
However, at WG we don't want to appear to have discrimination or bias towards other languages.
Please continue to leave your feedback so it can be seen and we then can make adjustments  :great:
Kind regards
IPaul72

Being fair to everyone is good, and i understand that you need to keep each  group of players in good relations for them to play your game, but avoiding the reality is not good.

We already have a terrible service news wise, because to keep things fair, news are delayed because they are translated in all supported languages.

And if you want to put everything under the "no discrimination" policy, then you ordered the languages forums badly, since you have put the polish community as second subforum, even if the german one have more active posts.

sword_of_Damocles #17 Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:27 PM

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The previous forum structure was more convenient.Main language on the internetzzz is English.
All the others must be in subforum.Simple as that.And NO i am not English!

Predator_or #18 Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:22 PM

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Why click one time when we can make you to click 4 times for the same stuff  :great:

war4peace #19 Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:34 PM

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Sorry to say but you DID broke the forums.
First moment I join I thought I was banned from various sections because I couldn't see them. Then I dug around and realized there are changes to the structure.

When I go to the main forum URL, I see "European Community" section, which contains 30-40 links to all languages and all social media tools, out of 30-40 links I only am interested in exactly ONE. it means 95% of everything that's in there will be of no use to me. I don't do Twitter, Facebook, I only look at forum. I can't even collapse the extra sections that are of no use to me.

Now into the English Forum, I don't care about:
- Newcomer Forum
- Community Area
- Support
- Offtopic
...etc.

I can't collapse those either, so they just are unneeded overhead.
The only thing that this will achieve is people bookmarking a certain sub-forum and completely missing all other content.

Bundin #20 Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:49 PM

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English in the greater European area
Personally, I don't see how having the English forums separate from the others is an expression of discrimination or bias. English simply is the "common ground" language in most international communities, including gaming communities.

Percentage of the population that speaks at least some English
Posted Image
File taken from http://en.wikipedia....guage_EU.jpg -Author: Aaken, data taken from an EU survey

This data includes older generations in the listed countries, I think it's fair to assume that the percentage that can read/write at least some English is higher for WoTs primary target audience.

Also have a look at this table on Wikipedia. The table only covers the EU, so for instance the population of Turkey isn't taken into account (just Turks living in the EU), but the numbers are pretty clear: English is spoken by 51% of the EU citizens, German (27%) and French (24%) are next, Italian and Spanish are above 15% and the rest doesn't even make it to 10%.

The fact that the eSports forum is English only and not hidden away within the English Community forums shows this as well: it's simply the most convenient language to use when you need to reach an international audience. It's the language that is expected. That doesn't have anything to do with bias or discrimination. I don't use English because I prefer English, England or the USA over other countries, but because a. I've learned in in school and b. I'll reach the biggest audience.

So, the use of English on the internet and on these forums probably doesn't have anything to do with discrimination. Some people might think that, and they might feel offended that "their" forums are hidden in a sub-forum while the English forums are directly accessible. But I doubt that WG ever aimed to discriminate people. They just selected a board structure that caters for a majority, while putting a lot of effort in also setting up a structure for people that want to use other languages.

Forum structure
I think the recent changes are very bad for the usability of the forums. Even though English is the "default" language on the internet, the English forums are not as accessible as they used to be. It takes an extra click to get somewhere. Apart from that, some forums used to have a more prominent place. The Newcomers' Forum was separated from the rest, making it easier for new players to find information and ask questions. Now it's just one forum in a list.

Nesting forums (creating sub-forums) isn't a bad thing in itself. It can be quite convenient to have less busy forums that house similar topics listed together. A good example are the sub-forums for the different tank types. However, if you use too many sub-levels, you're cluttering your forum structure. You don't want to hide things five levels deep. People will stop using those forums and just post in general forums. Example:
World of Tanks official forum → European Community → English Speaking Community → Forum → In-Game Vehicles Discussion → Chinese Vehicles → Medium Tanks

Alternative
Completely separate forums. worldoftanks.de, worldoftanks.fr, worldoftanks.tr, worldoftanks.ee. That way, the forum structures won't be needlessly complicated, the .eu site can be English only (or if you need to be 100% politically correct: just a link to all localised forums). It's possible with the unified accounts, but it's a pain for Community Management and Moderators, as well as for players that use/speak more than one language.

Personal remark and conclusion
WG is doing a great job with localisation, spending money to make sure that many languages are supported, even on Community Management level. They're actively recruiting/hiring people from many different countries and have a translation program. I am surprised that anyone would feel discriminated by a company that puts in a lot more effort than most gaming companies (that generally limit themselves to just English, German, French and sometimes Spanish).

I think WG (or maybe people that complained to WG) are a bit too sensitive here, and creating a problem out of thin air. I doubt that anyone using English here is actively trying to show bias or discriminate. Perceived discrimination (where there actually isn't any) shouldn't be a reason for making these changes, an explanation to the people that feel offended should be enough. Especially if those changes have a negative effect on the usability of the forums in general.

tl;dr version
There is such a thing as "too politically correct". English simply is more important on the internet. But not because of bias or discrimination but because you reach the largest amount of people by using it. That's why the English forums had (and should have) a more prominent position in the forum structure.

Edited by Bundin, 30 May 2013 - 05:51 PM.





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