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Foch pen nerf

foch nerf penetration

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steve_michalik #1 Posted 19 June 2013 - 04:27 PM

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For those, who do not know it yet, pen of the 120mm Foch and AC 1948 gun has been nerfed from 267mm to 257mm.
Have not tested it yet. With the increased accuracy it could be ok though, but I don't like the idea, that the lowest pen T9 TD gun has even lesser penetration.

Just to compare:
  • 704: 286mm
  • Jagdtiger: 276mm
  • T95/T30: 276mm
  • Tortoise: 269mm (nerfed too to 259mm)
  • 122-54: 268mm (nerfed too to 258mm)
EDIT: Tortoise and 122-54 have been nerfed too by same margin of 10mm.

Edited by steve_michalik, 19 June 2013 - 04:34 PM.


Asghaad #2 Posted 19 June 2013 - 05:01 PM

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well at tier 8 its nothing to cry about, but Tortoise was hit by that nerfhammer too and let me tell you, tier 9 "TD" that is supposed to have superior gun to heavy has LOWER pen than same tier british MEDIUM because for some reason normal L7A1s kept theyr 268 pen but Tortoises L7 was hammered to 259, just great ...

your foch might be in the same boat as far as gun goes, but it still can bounce and has great mobility, where tortoise will not bounce anything anymore and its gun is somewhat less awesome ... it can still hit almost anything, but today i started bouncing shots of weakspots i didnt have problem penetrating before (american heavies and theyr commander hatches,  IS7 frontal plate at side angle etc ...)

Hornet331 #3 Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:43 PM

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Well the thing is this TDs have the same gun as heavies, and therefore suffer the same nerf.

Jaras142 #4 Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:07 AM

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View PostHornet331, on 19 June 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Well the thing is this TDs have the same gun as heavies, and therefore suffer the same nerf.
They have similar name but they are not the same because I have to unlock them again on TD even when i have them on my HT.
sry for my english

Asghaad #5 Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:10 AM

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View PostHornet331, on 19 June 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Well the thing is this TDs have the same gun as heavies, and therefore suffer the same nerf.


thing is, L7A1 on the medium and heavy kept theyt 269 pen, but unturetted TD was nerfed to the 258. Its still a good gun, but its just fater firing tier 9 heavy tank gun isnstead of tier 10 TD gun as it should be. tortoise was pretty ballanced before with crap armor, mobility, size, camo ... well all other aspects of that machine are utter garbage ... what made that TD were HP and gun and now gun is not bad but not so good either

sigh, well time to grind americans again it would seem as t110E3 is what Tortoise should have been (well with exchange of alpha for DPM to give it british flavor)


its sad that TDs with already subpar penetration for their iers are nerfed along with big boys that had overkill pen on theyr guns.

Edited by Asghaad, 20 June 2013 - 09:10 AM.


HUN_Sector #6 Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:58 PM

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While ISU has almost the same penetration as TIER X Foch...
Pathetic....

Hornet331 #7 Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:24 PM

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View PostAsghaad, on 20 June 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

thing is, L7A1 on the medium and heavy kept theyt 269 pen, but unturetted TD was nerfed to the 258. Its still a good gun, but its just fater firing tier 9 heavy tank gun isnstead of tier 10 TD gun as it should be. tortoise was pretty ballanced before with crap armor, mobility, size, camo ... well all other aspects of that machine are utter garbage ... what made that TD were HP and gun and now gun is not bad but not so good either

sigh, well time to grind americans again it would seem as t110E3 is what Tortoise should have been (well with exchange of alpha for DPM to give it british flavor)


its sad that TDs with already subpar penetration for their iers are nerfed along with big boys that had overkill pen on theyr guns.

look again, all heavy tanks lost ~10mm pen there are no more 26x guns only 25x guns, and since they are the same (it doesnt matter that there is a AT suffix, WG treats them as the same, with just the usual TD benefits of lower aimtime/faster rof etc..)

Asghaad #8 Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:15 PM

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im looking on "105 mm Royal Ordnance L7A1" gun right now on live, pens are 268/ 210/105 - FV4202 gun - yes its a medium, but that is bloody heavy tank gun if i ever saw one, onnly difference is that heavy tank 120mm L1A1 does whopping 10 dmg more and has that crap penetration (and i thought that  Tortoise had previously L7A1 gun not L1A1, but whatever, it still sucks that tier 9 TD gun has LOWER pen than gun on T9 MEDIUM (centurion mk7 uses the same gun, hell LEopard PTA uses the same bloody gun, E-50M has 270mm of pen ..., patton 268 mm of pen again ... hell only mediums that dont have 260+ pen are chinese and french ...

what the **** ? so mediums now oficially are better than heavies and have better guns than some TDs too? thats just ridiculous

Jaras142 #9 Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:38 AM

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View PostHornet331, on 20 June 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

look again, all heavy tanks lost ~10mm pen there are no more 26x guns only 25x guns, and since they are the same (it doesnt matter that there is a AT suffix, WG treats them as the same, with just the usual TD benefits of lower aimtime/faster rof etc..)
Then compare 130mm S-70 on IS-7 and 130mm S-70 on Obj 263 - totally different guns.
sry for my english

Huntyman #10 Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:39 AM

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View Poststeve_michalik, on 19 June 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

For those, who do not know it yet, pen of the 120mm Foch and AC 1948 gun has been nerfed from 267mm to 257mm.
still its more than 246mm for german 128mm guns, and those 128 are pretty good so i dont see a problem

HUN_Sector #11 Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:58 AM

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View PostHuntyman, on 21 June 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

still its more than 246mm for german 128mm guns, and those 128 are pretty good so i dont see a problem
But acmle48 and foch does not have a turret... so if an E75 makes a diamond shape, the TD is dead...

Furthermore check the other TDs penetration and damage value and you will see, how painful is this nerf to the french ones.


These were the original ideas: ftr-wot.blogspot. - > 2013/05/086-supertest-hightier-penetration-nerfs
T57: Penetration: 258/340/60
T110E5: Penetration: 258/340/60
Patton mk3: Penetration: 268/330/53
T110E4: no pen changes
T-62A: Penetration: 264/330/50
IS-7: Penetration:250/303/68 AP nerf? weird
IS-4: Penetration: 258/340/68
Object 268: no pen changes
Object 263 no pen changes
Maus: no pen changes
E-100: no pen changes
E-50M: Penetration:270/330/60
Leopard 1: Penetration:268/330/53
Jpz E-100: no pen changes
AMX 50B: Penetration:257/325/65 yes AP nerf as well
Batchat: Penetration:259/330/53
Foch 155: no pen changes
FV4202: no pen changes
FV215b: Penetration: 259/326/120 yes AP nerf as well
FV215b 183: no pen changes
121: Penetration: 258/340/68 yes ap nerf as well
113: Penetration: 249/340/68
IS-2: no pen changes


Can't see the foch between them.

Edited by HUN_Sector, 21 June 2013 - 09:09 AM.


Cobra6 #12 Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:22 AM

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They got nerfed (Foch/Su122-54) because they have speed, mobility and armour (foch). Not to mention most other TD's have a 150mm+ gun on tier 9 a part from the German one.

But I do agree Wargaming needs to balance guns between tank classes separately. Now these guns got nerfed because the heavy tank guns got nerfed and the TD guns are attached to those.

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Hornet331 #13 Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:39 AM

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Man you people still dont get it... if there is a heavy tank that share the same "gun" with a TD aka same AMMO it gets the same penetration.

View PostAsghaad, on 20 June 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

im looking on "105 mm Royal Ordnance L7A1" gun right now on live, pens are 268/ 210/105 - FV4202 gun - yes its a medium, but that is bloody heavy tank gun if i ever saw one, onnly difference is that heavy tank 120mm L1A1 does whopping 10 dmg more and has that crap penetration (and i thought that Tortoise had previously L7A1 gun not L1A1, but whatever, it still sucks that tier 9 TD gun has LOWER pen than gun on T9 MEDIUM (centurion mk7 uses the same gun, hell LEopard PTA uses the same bloody gun, E-50M has 270mm of pen ..., patton 268 mm of pen again ... hell only mediums that dont have 260+ pen are chinese and french ...
what the **** ? so mediums now oficially are better than heavies and have better guns than some TDs too? thats just ridiculous

good thing you didn't looked at the heavy guns/ammo at all as I told you to do. Mediums haven't got touched at all because they use different ammo. The L7 and the L1 are different guns and use different ammo, so why even compare them. It was solely a comparison between the L1 on the conquer and on the tortoise. The tort never had the L7 it always had the L1.

And yes mediums sometimes now have better guns then heavy on T9, but then again why do we compare gold shells vs normal shells again? The only tanks that have better pen then heavies on the same tier are the tanks with the british L7 gun. T9 us meds only have 218mm/210mm pen, chinese got nerfed to 249mm (from 257mm), russians got no change, same as the french and german mediums. The only guns that remained the same are the guns that are based on the british L7 gun, for T9 thats only the centurion and the PTA.

So out of 8 T9 meds only 2 have 268mm pen thats a whooping 10mm more then most T9 heavies (well beside the germans and the chinese).

As for T10 well since most of the guns are based on the L7 they have same pen.

View PostHUN_Sector, on 21 June 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

But acmle48 and foch does not have a turret... so if an E75 makes a diamond shape, the TD is dead...
Furthermore check the other TDs penetration and damage value and you will see, how painful is this nerf to the french ones.

These were the original ideas: ftr-wot.blogspot. - > 2013/05/086-supertest-hightier-penetration-nerfs
T57: Penetration: 258/340/60
T110E5: Penetration: 258/340/60
Patton mk3: Penetration: 268/330/53
T110E4: no pen changes
T-62A: Penetration: 264/330/50
IS-7: Penetration:250/303/68 AP nerf? weird
IS-4: Penetration: 258/340/68
Object 268: no pen changes
Object 263 no pen changes
Maus: no pen changes
E-100: no pen changes
E-50M: Penetration:270/330/60
Leopard 1: Penetration:268/330/53
Jpz E-100: no pen changes
AMX 50B: Penetration:257/325/65 yes AP nerf as well
Batchat: Penetration:259/330/53
Foch 155: no pen changes
FV4202: no pen changes
FV215b: Penetration: 259/326/120 yes AP nerf as well
FV215b 183: no pen changes
121: Penetration: 258/340/68 yes ap nerf as well
113: Penetration: 249/340/68
IS-2: no pen changes

Can't see the foch between them.

look again, you have the AMX 50B, which shares the same ammo of the AMX 50 120, ARL48 and Foch.

View PostJaras142, on 21 June 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Then compare 130mm S-70 on IS-7 and 130mm S-70 on Obj 263 - totally different guns.
sry for my english

Despite there name they are not the same gun because they use different ammo, its a fantasy gun to start with anyway so WG gave it a penetration value that seem to fit them. The IS7 we got is based of 1948 the Object 263 somewhere in the mid 50s. WG could give them any name they could come up with just got lazy and just added an A.

Then again there is also the 130 mm 59-130T, which is the chinies copy and it had 244mm pen only from the start wich was way worse then the 260m pen of the S70.

I whish people would look into the actual game mechanics then rant without reason, why that got nerfed and this not.

TLDNR:
Penetration is based on ammo
If guns use same ammo the have same penetration
there are TDs that share the same ammo as heavies

joyuesp #14 Posted 24 June 2013 - 12:34 PM

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View PostJaras142, on 20 June 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

They have similar name but they are not the same because I have to unlock them again on TD even when i have them on my HT.
sry for my english
its the same gun but for grinding purposes counts as different, since tds doesnt have turret and would be easy to mount the last gun without using free xp.

if the ht/mt gets nerfed the at counterpart will be too..

Asghaad #15 Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:01 PM

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Hornett you totally missed the point, the point was, the second slowest TD in the game, that has NO armor compensation for that sluggis speed, that is largest vehicle aside from E-100/Maus/Kv4/KV5 has gun that is BARELY match to same tier MEDIUM TANK gun (actually it is WORSE ...)

compare this : Jadgtiger -276 pen, T30 - 276 pen, T95 -276 pen, obj704 -286 pen

only TDs that have sub 260 pen are SU-122-54 (48 km/h speed) and Foch (50 km/h speed AND better frontal armor than Tort by far)

and now tell me, why exactly did Tortoise deserve to be nerfed to the level of unturreted heavy tank while it does NOT have any other redeeming feature than its gun ? (Armor - crap, speed hypercrap, profile - like a moving barn).

ollonborre #16 Posted 25 June 2013 - 03:13 PM

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The Tortoise is still awesome. Barely felt the pen nerf, and with the accuracy it has now plus the amazing DPM, really who cares about 10 less pen?

Asghaad #17 Posted 25 June 2013 - 05:22 PM

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i do, when facing E-75, IS-7 IS-4 ST-1, T29/34/30 , T110E5 and loads of other tanks that are much more likely to bounce 258 shell than 269 one.

and again, missing the point, Tortoise was unballanced before and they make it worse. Why is there need to nerf the machine that is already weaker than its peers ? that nerf was totally uncalled for, if anything they should have brough back AT lines armor , THEN the pen nerf would be  acceptable.

ollonborre #18 Posted 25 June 2013 - 07:13 PM

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I will not agree on weaker. If anything it is stronger than any other tier 9 TD I have currently. The armour is not that weak as you would believe. On range it is quite good, and with your insane gun arc you can angle it well plus your side armour is thick aswell so you can angle a lot before worrying about your side. And having a 2000 HP pool will also boost your survivability by a nice amount compared to its peers. And I have 52% survival ratio in this thing coupled with 9 Steel Walls, so no it is not exactly poorly defended. It has big weakspots I admit, but I can often discourage poeple with that DPM.

And speaking of DPM and the gun, no I don't think 10 less penetration is huge. With the accuracy the Tortoise has (and especially now in 8.6) andconsidering 259 penetration is more than enough to hit and punch through virtually all weakspots in the game, coupled with that great DPM you will hurt enemy tanks greatly.

So no, Tortoise has not really been nerfed, it has more or less been rebalanced. It lost a bit of pen, but gained better overall accuracy and the normalisation change made it slightly more bouncy. Still like it.

Asghaad #19 Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:32 PM

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1. it is NOT equal, its only advantages are DPM and health pool and thats it ...  AMX Foch is in my eyes top dog of  Tier 9, 314 effective armor on the front combined with 50km/h speed is monstrous, its gun is almost as accurate as Tortoises and differs basically only in RoF - (2 rounds per minute less). American T95 is a monster¨with unpenetrable friontal armor, devastating alpha and two TINY weakspots. Tortoises armor cant stand to tier 9 guns and it is NONEXISTENT against tier 9-10 TD guns. And im talking about that part of it that actually has any armor, 1/3rd of the frontal armor on the tort is lightyl sloped 75mm thick tissue paper that tier SIX tanks can pen ... Its slow, its HUGE its armor is full of HUGE holes (both T95 and Foch have weaksopts that are WAY smaller and much much MUCH more armored than ones on Tort). JGTiger is hulldown monster with gun quite comparable to the Tort ones (again, stronger armor, comparable gun and is faster ...). Russian 704? well i cant comment on its armor, but ist 120mm highly sloped, BUT it has nuke launcher BL-10 for gunand does nearly 40 km/h.

2. Armor at range may seem good as there is not 100% certainty that they will shoot your paper thin righ front plate ...

3. angling the tortoise is not that effective, 75mm of armor will not change that much by anglin it by another 20 degrees, yes it will be stronger, but no it will not stop 220+ pen shell, secondly if you angle the tortoise, you actually unagle the strongest armor around mantlet, the only part of the armor that IS effective becomes easy to pen. What i do with tortoise is, i angle it +-10 degrees and i PRAY that the opponent is stupid or unlucky enough to hit the left side or centre of the machine ..., anything hitting the right side is going to get through.

4. accuracy change in 8.6 is actually a NERF to the tortoise, it had spot on accuracy before, it barely registers now, but unlike Tortoise that was deadly accurate before, almost anyone on the battlefield now shoots with pinpoint accuracy. So one excellent feature of the gun is not so excellent anymore as difference between 0.35 and 0.31 accuracy is barely noticeable now ...

5 normalisation made almost unangled box of the tank better ? isnt that other way around ? you DONT need APCR ammo to pen tortoise, but tortoise NEEDS those to pen angled E75 for instance, unless you want to gamble on the shots for the cupola (if driver of the e75 is not stupid, angles his turret and wiggles his tank, you will NOT penetrate without APCR. And now APCR has less normalisation) thankfully at least APCR ammo on the tortoise has enough pen to go through almost anything, normalization or not, but it is still NERF to Tortoise nevertheless. Ill repeat that again you DONT need APCR ammo to pen Tortoise, it will NOT be any bouncier than before (in my eyes, anyone using gold ammo against the tort has to learn the weakspots better. When 30% of the frontal plate is a weakspot, you just CANT miss it ...


so think again, Tortoise was nerfed THREE times in this patch 1. pen 2. accuracy is stat with lower value now 3. APCR ammo less effective
if i compare all these machines to the Tortoise, they always sacrifice ONE aspect to be good at at least two others (T95 - speed sacrificed for ungodly armor and high pen high alpha gun, AMX - DPM sacrificed for mobility and frontal armor, JgTiger - mobility (somewhat) sacrificed for situationally good armor, great DPM gun with great acu and pen (JGT may have slower RofThan Tortoise, but it has higher alpha and way higher pen), O704 - armor sacrificed for Bl10 and mobility. Only Tortoise sacrifices both armor and speed combines it with largest vehicle silouette ingame ( = shitty camo value for sure) and only thing it gets in return is 2 shots per minute more than Conqueror ?(and one shot per minute more than 215b).

when comparing all this, Tortoise IS worst tier 9 td...

ollonborre #20 Posted 25 June 2013 - 09:06 PM

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View PostAsghaad, on 25 June 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

75mm of armor will not change that much by anglin it by another 20 degrees,

Could you remind me on what part of the Tortoise is 75mm? Because the right side is 170 mm, so actually around the same strenght as the Jagdtigers upper glacis.





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