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German guns - balance (the lack of)

german guns balance wg fail

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Steffenximus #1 Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:15 PM

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Now everyone knows how the soviet guns and tanks perform much much better in WoT than they did IRL. Personally I don't care about that. I can certainly understand the reason, if they weren't the soviet tanks in this game would suck.
We all know the pen values for the mid-tier guns like 7.5cm L43-L48, 8.8cm L56 and so on. What do they all have in common ? They suck. Why ? Because WG doesn't want to take into account that the germans measured their pen AT 30 DEGREES ANGLE ,

Here is something you can all read : http://spwaw.com/lho...penetration.htm You'll find similar results in every other site.

To sum it up :

30 degrees Penetration
88mm Pzgr 39 APCBC- Tiger E Round
100....500.....1000.....1500....2000m
127....117.....106.......96......88mm

IS EQUAL TO :

0 Degree Penetration
Tiger E Smaller HE Capacity 88mm APCBC
100m...500m...1000m...1500m....2000m
162....149....134.....120......109
(162).(151)..(138)...(126)....(116) (Our book)

That's on normal AP ammo, not APCR (that ones goes from 171 pen at 30 degrees which means 200+). It's the same with every gun, for instance PzIV with L48 should have 135mm pen, which is a very nice figure. Wouldn't you agree ? Similar to that 8.8cm L71 should have 257mm pen.

My question is WHY ISN'T WG TAKING THE REAL FIGURES IN CONSIDERATION ??? Answer is simple : they wouldn't want the german tanks to become the most powerful units in the game. God I hope someone will create a similar game and use the real values instead.

A_Hardy_Buck #2 Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:32 PM

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This Germans are crap topic is so last year

Mahtistondis #3 Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:32 PM

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So you hope someone would create a similiar game with real values, meaning there would be few superb OP tanks and everyone would play them without any variety? Yipee, sounds fun  :trollface:

MTWEmperor #4 Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:35 PM

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[edited] realism, you want a tank simulator you can LEAVE.  This is a game and about #*$&ing balance.  There are 38485 topics about this fyi since you didn't look.

What you should be talking about is the accuracy NERF.  By increasing accuracy without increasing view range/draw distance caps they buffed all the inaccurate tanks while the already accurate tanks are less able take advantage of their increased accuracy at long ranges because of the hard cap and furthermore firefight distances were never all that long distance to begin with.

Edit: And this is coming from a German player btw. 48.5% games played = Germany

Edited by xOlsenx, 04 July 2013 - 07:15 AM.
This post has been edited by a member of the Moderation Team, due to inappropriate content. An official notification has also been sent. xOlsenx


A_Hardy_Buck #5 Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:39 PM

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Oh btw this isn't news most of that has been posted and discussed over a year ago

1:

2:

3:

Warheart1992 #6 Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:47 PM

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Totally agreed , but also if you implement nerfed IRL Maus armor , imprenetrable IS-7 front armor +autoloader . Oh , and late war german tanks get a penaly cause of lack of fuel  :smile:

Tesla_Tank #7 Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:58 PM

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Dear boy, welcome to World Of Russian  :bajan:  Tanks. As we all know, russians are way overpowered in comparison with germans and there is no doubt. Personally I love German tanks, and since I noticed that they are u-p (under-powered), I play them even more in spite to Russians. And if you look better into history of WoT's updates, everyone have a little bufs for Russians and little nerfs to Germans. Best example: 250% nerfed Pz IV.... It was awesome tank until it was nerfed just because this: "it looks ugly, so let's make looks prettier". that was a pathetic excuse to nerf it to death....
In summary, example of WGs logic is next: Pz IV kill T-34 WG: It is OP - NERF IT!!! :izmena: .... T-34 kill Pz IV, WG: So what... we won in WW II  :trollface:
So, historical accuracy exist only if it is in favour of russians... for poor germans.... meh.... who care (exept german players :sad: ....)

Arkhell #8 Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:58 PM

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View PostX_Patton_Zhukov_Rommel_X, on 03 July 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Oh btw this isn't news most of that has been posted and discussed over a year ago

1:

2:

3:

a year ago? dude these topics have been around since beta  :trollface:

a week in beta wasn't complete without atleast 1 pen topic and 3 P1000 ratte topics.

erik4boss #9 Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:03 PM

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3 reasons germanys tanks are not op.

1, It is a russian developer
2 If German tanks would be op, then they would even be more players and you will only see german nations in games.
3 It would not be fun so.

JohnnyMaverik #10 Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:07 PM

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Just add the Chieftain already and give it to me only and I WILL DESTROY YOU ALL xD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *cough*, or we can have balance... cuz thats fun too. ATM russians (and Chinese... and some of the Mericans if you think about it) got a buff with the accuracy changes, I would be amazed if that isn't addressed at some point in the future. In the mean time you may wish to re-visit such German classics as: PanzerJager, the Pz 1. C, the Hetzer, the Stug, the VK 36.01H, the Jagdpanther II, the Ferdinand, The E75, the Jagdtiger, the JagPz E100, The E100 and the Maus, all of which when driven well can beast their respective tiers in 8.6 and that's just the really strong ones, Germany is doing fine. I mean lets just look at the German tanks that got buffed in 8.6, The E75 used to be a bit iffy with accuracy, now its pin point most of the time, the E100 and Maus got some indirect buffs and the Hetzer is now the best overpowered 105mm delivery mechanism in the game, because 1. the 105mm is now more accurate and 2. the 105 heat nerf means very little at tier 4.

Edited by JohnnyMaverik, 03 July 2013 - 04:40 PM.


A_Hardy_Buck #11 Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:08 PM

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View PostArkhell, on 03 July 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

a year ago? dude these topics have been around since beta  :trollface:

a week in beta wasn't complete without atleast 1 pen topic and 3 P1000 ratte topics.

Ah i was just remembering that massive crap storm last summer , the PZ 4 nerf , the E series debacle , Crappy pen of the E-100 when the IS-4 and E5 were released  :teethhappy:  Fun times were had defending the changes those days  :blinky:

A_Hardy_Buck #12 Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:23 PM

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View PostPopovic123, on 03 July 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Why is this in off-topic? IMO, this should be in General discussion sub-forum.

On topic, I agree that some of the legendary German guns are underperforming in this game. And I think they should be buffed.

However, your figures are a tad too high. First of all here are some of the sources I found (and I believe they are pretty credible because they rely on Jentz` numbers):
http://www.wwiivehic.../guns/88-mm.asp
http://www.achtungpa...-sd-kfz-181.htm (scroll down to the bottom of the page).

So, according to Jentz penetration of the 88mm KwK 36 L/56 is 120 mm at 100 meters, angled at 30 degrees.

Also, I can`t find a calculator right now, and I don`t know the exact formula for changing 30 degrees into 0 degrees. However, I recall that usually adding 15% to the penetration value at 30 degrees gives you roughly the right number.

So, if going from Jentz` numbers above:

120mm+15%= 138 mm penetration.

Now that is not that far off from the current ingame 132 mm.

Then, there is the issue of testing of the Germans.
It is known that in wartime Germany it was considered enough if a shell penetrated 5 out of 10 times during tests. So, 50% of the time.

However, in Russian tests the shell had to penetrate 10/10 times for the tests to aknowledge that it penetrates a certain value.
Now, what should we do about that?  :blinky:

Give german rounds a 50% dud rate ?  :amazed:

JohnnyMaverik #13 Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:43 PM

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View PostX_Patton_Zhukov_Rommel_X, on 03 July 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Give german rounds a 50% dud rate ?  :amazed:

We already have penetration rolls.

Steffenximus #14 Posted 04 July 2013 - 06:19 AM

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View PostPopovic123, on 03 July 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Also, I can`t find a calculator right now, and I don`t know the exact formula for changing 30 degrees into 0 degrees. However, I recall that usually adding 15% to the penetration value at 30 degrees gives you roughly the right number.

So, if going from Jentz` numbers above:

120mm+15%= 138 mm penetration.
That's what I thought as well but if several experts says otherwise who am I to argue ? Maybe at 30 degrees the difference is higher than 15%.

As for balancing, I fail to see how buffing PzIV's L48 gun to 135 pen would make it OP. After all it's a crappy tank with shitty armor and very low DPM. At least the M4 has 128 pen with 115 dmg and better DPM, it's also better armored.

Also if they buff the short 88 pen to 167 again that's no problem. Do I need to bring up the 122mm gun on KV-1S ? That's OP. Although I do agree about long 88, buffing it to the real 257mm pen would be too strong. But remember, that's the real value of the gun.

besterich27 #15 Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:25 AM

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Another one of these fail threads... why is this not locked? Not helping anyone.




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