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Is HESH fair?

HESH british fair play

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Poll: Is HESH fair (243 members have cast votes)

Is it fair that British tanks have HESH instead of HEAT

  1. Yes (162 votes [66.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  2. No (81 votes [33.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

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ClaudiuCojo #21 Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:32 AM

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View PostTechnocrat_Prime, on 24 July 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

British Tanks have rifled barrels and thus cannot use HEAT (the centrifugal force would disperse the gas). The British do this because rifled barrels are more precise at longer ranges and can shoot a greater variety of ammo.  WG just reflects this, so it's not a question of fairness.

I think what you meant to say is that the was the centrifugal force is spinning the hot jet not the gas
HEAT doesn't use any sort of gas.

Edited by ClaudiuCojo, 24 July 2013 - 10:37 AM.


ilhilh #22 Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:44 AM

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I've only just really got to HESH tanks and haven't experimented enough with them.  It is taking me a while to adapt with my cent - the inability to up my pen against the toughest targets is sometimes... problematic.

Adwaenyth #23 Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:50 AM

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View PostTechnocrat_Prime, on 24 July 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

British Tanks have rifled barrels and thus cannot use HEAT (the centrifugal force would disperse the gas). The British do this because rifled barrels are more precise at longer ranges and can shoot a greater variety of ammo.  WG just reflects this, so it's not a question of fairness.

What gas!?

The difference between a rifled and a smoothbore barrel is that the rifled barrel causes the projectile to spin which stabilizes the flight trajectory (same principle as with a gyroscope) while the smoothbore barrel usually allows the projectile to be fired at higher velocity but you have to actively stabilize the trajectory. While impact velocity is almost completely unimportant for a HEAT round, a rifled barrel might sometimes even be better to fire the round.

However substancial accuracy differences are only noticeable at extreme ranges with modern guns (3km+).

In essence, it doesn't really matter which type of gun you use to shoot AP, APDS, HEAT, HESH or whatever ammunition...

SettingMeUp #24 Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:28 AM

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Fv4202 and hesh need a huge buff.

deveen23 #25 Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:24 PM

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I find the concept great, cause of extra damage, but it's utterly unreliable. It works against stationary, low armored, flat surface targets, anything other than that is a gamble. Any kind of tracks or spaced armor and you'll get crappy double digit roll. Russian heavies side shots are absolute no go, but you'll also find yourself unpleasantly surprised if you hit Bat Chat side/tracks. On the Centurion 7/1 and it's low ROF it's usually just not worth the risk until the game has been decided.

conductiv #26 Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:04 PM

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while HEAT and APCR give a massive reliability boost by boosting the pen to the stratosphere, HESH is basically a high penetration HE shell that still suffers from all the problems that HE suffers from. its woefully unreliable and needs a mechanics change.

-lack of normalization causes frequent non-penetrating hits of HESH, cutting the damage in half and then substracting the armors absorbtion factor..meaning below the average AP round damage
-spaced armor stops HESH rounds just like it reduces the effect of HEAT rounds, but as HEAT might barrel through, HESH starts with heavily reduced HE splash mechanics.

apparently HESH was never intended to be used against armored vehicles, the fact that it could be used against it was more of a side effect then the actual goal. it was intended to be a demolition charge against concrete fortifications.

When its ability to hammer armor was discovered, more research was done (as a multi purpose anti-tank, anti-bunker, anti soft target  round was very interesting) but the round has various glaring weaknesses (poor against laminated or spaced armor, useless against any armored vehicle equipped with a spall liner) a notable effect was its effectiveness on all armor plates up to 60 degrees from vertical sloping. meaning it could ignore a great deal of slope of the target vehicles.

like HE rounds, they don't rely on penetration, they rely on the more effective placement of the explosive force by allowing it to make direct contact with the target over a decent surface before exploding.

I suggest reducing its penetration to average HE levels, remove splash, and increasing its damage to ~600, and instead give it special HE mechanics by simply not cutting the damage in half upon a non penetrating hit. allow armor and spall liner to work as normal.

this should yield consistent high damage hits when it hits non spaced armor...
hitting spaced armor would not have any effect atoll. thick armor or lots of spaced armor would still provide adequate protection, thin armor that relies on slope will suffer massive damage (mimicking the ammunition's ability to ignore slopes)

Spithas #27 Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:31 AM

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View PostHomer_J, on 24 July 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Really?  So HESH should work exactly as HE, not different in any way?

If you simply up the damage to something to give reasonable results where HESH should then on the occasions it does penetrate it will one shot tier 10 mediums.  You could lower the penetration to 10mm so that never happens but you would still get stupidly high damage against thin armour.  And it would be confusing to the average player.  If you change the mechanic, simply make armour less absorbing of HESH (but make spall liners more effective against it), then you can leave the rest alone.  It will then be useful where we expect it to be useful.

Was reffering to Medium HESH rounds not the TD rounds.

What would be confusing? it would work exactly the same as it does now.... you saying there is much confusion now? The same way a HEAT or APCR gets absorbed by tracks so does the HESH have the same effect.

The simple fact is that HESH on the Medium does too little damage for a round that costs 4800 and has 210 pen. Up the damage... up the pen... hell even lower the cost. Nothing more simpler than that... yet you consider it confusing?

great_kahn #28 Posted 28 July 2013 - 09:12 PM

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Battle today, I fired two HESH rounds, 1 at a Chafee for 71 damage, one at a vk1602  for 90 damage.... thanks WG

IGL #29 Posted 28 July 2013 - 09:18 PM

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well firing them is not enough, you still need to aim...
HESH failes at spaced armor (tracks!) and highly sloped armor (even thin sheet metal)
but I still agree those shells are way too expensive. 3k-3.5k per shell would be more adequate.

Edited by IGL, 28 July 2013 - 09:19 PM.


ollonborre #30 Posted 28 July 2013 - 09:25 PM

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Can only speak for the FV 183 when it comes to HESH, but for the amount of damage it can deal and the unreliability of the ammo, I think it's fine. A penetrating hit will annihilate everything or leave them practically dead, but eventhe slightest angle or if a track gets in your way HESH will have problems going in.

But again HESH on the 183 is completely different as opposed to the HESH on the FV4202 for example. I have learned how to plant succesful HESH shells with the 183, so I suppose it is also possible to adapth with the HESH on FV4202 like Merquise says. Not sure about HEAT though, because HESH is such an interesting ammo type. Would be a shame if it dissapeared.

ClaudiuCojo #31 Posted 29 July 2013 - 02:28 PM

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View PostAdwaenyth, on 24 July 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

What gas!?
The difference between a rifled and a smoothbore barrel is that the rifled barrel causes the projectile to spin which stabilizes the flight trajectory (same principle as with a gyroscope) while the smoothbore barrel usually allows the projectile to be fired at higher velocity but you have to actively stabilize the trajectory. While impact velocity is almost completely unimportant for a HEAT round, a rifled barrel might sometimes even be better to fire the round.
However substancial accuracy differences are only noticeable at extreme ranges with modern guns (3km+).
In essence, it doesn't really matter which type of gun you use to shoot AP, APDS, HEAT, HESH or whatever ammunition...
You are wrong here, firing HEAT from a rifled barrel creates problems with the hot jet that is used to penetrate the tank ... you can find more info on wikipedia, recently they found ways to solve that issue but only recently.
Please look here:
http://en.wikipedia....on_and_accuracy

Edited by ClaudiuCojo, 29 July 2013 - 02:30 PM.


Adwaenyth #32 Posted 29 July 2013 - 03:15 PM

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View PostClaudiuCojo, on 29 July 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

You are wrong here, firing HEAT from a rifled barrel creates problems with the hot jet that is used to penetrate the tank ... you can find more info on wikipedia, recently they found ways to solve that issue but only recently.
Please look here:
http://en.wikipedia....on_and_accuracy

And HEAT rounds were shot frequently from rifled barrels nontheless. Why? Because people always found a way to circuumvent the problems or it was simply unimportant because the projectile was still effective enough.

The question is always what benefit do you get at what cost. But yeah, you're right. You rarely deal in absolutes in the real world. In essence, the spin effect on the projectile usually was too marginal against the respective armour of that time when fired from a rifled barrel.
If you want to go into detail, there are libraries full of data concerning ballistics of projectile weapons, but that would lead too far away.

Besides I'm still trying to figure out what gas would disperse with the HEAT round.

Hohum #33 Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:29 PM

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Giving HESH shells a lot of normalisation would probably fix the issue the 105 has.

In reality, non penetrating HESH hits also tend to strip off nearby aerials, and damage vision devices

bubo_bubo #34 Posted 29 July 2013 - 06:07 PM

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Let me ask you a better question.
IS GOLD AMMO FAIR?

ollonborre #35 Posted 29 July 2013 - 06:47 PM

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In general? No. But then we have tanks like the E-100 and FV215b 183 who in a lot of situations have to use gold ammo to get proper results (not always mind you). So removing gold ammo is something I would like, you just have to keep in mind those tanks that "need" gold ammo.

Woody1999 #36 Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:36 PM

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HESH on the FV183 is fine IMO. Yes, it has that 1,750 average damage, but the reload, accuracy, aim time and inconsistent penetration makes it as RNG based as arty used to be.

However, the HESH round as it is currently on the other British tanks (where it is used as premium ammunition) is underpowered for sure. 210 penetration on a tier 10 medium is crazily unreliable, especially with the new mechanics of spaced armor.

Making the mechanics of HESH as they are in real life would be game breaking. Any tank with a high calibre gun could 'one-shot' any tank in the game, no matter where or at what angle it hits. Can you imagine the power of an FV183 with this?

Changing the mechanics to give HESH more damage would be good for most tanks, excluding one, as has been mentioned twice before; the FV215b (183). This would give this monstrous TD more reliability to one-shot the biggest tanks in the game, which is not what we need.

Changing the shell cost would be a good idea, but without changing the cost of the HESH on the FV183. It could be a valid choice for higher tier tanks like this, without affecting game balance. The British tanks could have another option, not quite as 'p2w' as the other nations but cheaper at that.

Just my two cents,

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unknwn #37 Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:59 PM

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FV4202 HESH shells provide 78% pen and 123% damage of normal ammo.
FV183 HESH shells provide 89% pen and 152% damage of normal ammo.
210 HESH pen is in range where you won't penetrate weakspots with low penetration rolls therefore it is quite useless considering low damage advantage.
FV4202 HESH shells are highly underpowered compared to FV183 and should have higher damage or/and penetration to be competitive as premium ammo.

Edited by unknwn, 29 July 2013 - 08:02 PM.


Inflatable #38 Posted 29 July 2013 - 09:08 PM

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View Postbubo_bubo, on 29 July 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Let me ask you a better question.
IS GOLD AMMO FAIR?
It's fair because everybody has access to it thru credits..

That it makes the game less fun too play, especially as a heavy tank driver, is a whole different discussion.. I think WoT was more fun when people used HE when they could not penetrate.. Premium ammo is just lame, not skillbased and unbalances certain tanks.. But it's just the way WoT is right now and I think it's only getting worse with it's focus on big alpha damage guns and autoloaders.. I use it aswell, simply because you have to these days to stay competitive..

bubo_bubo #39 Posted 30 July 2013 - 05:41 AM

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View Postollonborre, on 29 July 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

In general? No. But then we have tanks like the E-100 and FV215b 183 who in a lot of situations have to use gold ammo to get proper results (not always mind you). So removing gold ammo is something I would like, you just have to keep in mind those tanks that "need" gold ammo.
They DON'T NEED gold ammo. They need penetration buffs! E-100 and Maus can get 10 more penetration and BOOM! Sudenly they're playable perfectly gold ammo, and all that armor is of some use because gold ammo isn't in the game then.
Comet as well, if it didn't have that BB gun, it would be an okeyish medium.
Instead of buffing 4 or 5 guns, they gave everyone a buff that nerfs all armored tanks in the game. How stupid do you have to be to aprove of such a decision?!

Edited by bubo_bubo, 30 July 2013 - 05:42 AM.


ollonborre #40 Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:11 AM

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Maybe my message came out a bit off, I'll start again. If a tank have to use gold ammo fairly often in order to be contributing to the team, then something is wrong and it should be balanced out accordingly, like giving it better penetration. And if we move to the derp HESH ammo on the FV215b 183, without that ammo the tank is just a very underpowered version of a Jagdpanzer E-100 and the gold ammo is the only thing that gives this tank a defining character and actual role.

That was what I meant, but it maybe sounded a bit like I think that some tanks need gold ammo and others don't, which currently is true but gold ammo should not be a mayor balancing factor. A tank should be balanced around Random Battles and AP (or HE ammo if it is let's say a KV-2), not gold. Balancing a tank around gold and we get tanks that have pretty good chassis but with guns that barely can hurt itself without spending tons of cash, or tanks with generally bad charachteristics because their gold ammo is borderline OP in certain situations (see FV215b 183).

If you really need to have gold ammo in the game, limit it to CW and TC, or just CW. Keep it out of random battles.