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Finnish swastika, is allowed or not, why?


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Menda75 #1 Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:00 PM

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Hello fellow tankers

I´m spanish and a finnish modern history enthusiast and here start my problem.

For one year I had posted about the Parola Panzer Museum http://forum.worldof...eum-parola/#top, and I was going to start a new topic about the remains and museums about Manerheimlinja and Salpalinja defensives lines.
One year ago, I ask to a Communnity Manager about the finnish swastika, I spoke about it and historical reasons and I was allowed to post and I started with it.
Now they are telling me about erase all finnish swastika photos.......

The forum rules says:

Spoiler                     

I want to know if the finnish swastika is allowed or not on forums, and why or why not. WG said?

The history of that symbol is far from de german nazi symbol:

"The Finnish swastika

The swastika is an ancient Finnish symbol (dating back to the Iron Age or further) and therefore commonly used in arts and crafts of the period of nationalism - 19th century to the early 20th century. Because the idea of Finland as an independent nation was so new, the need for powerful symbols that reinforced this idea was even greater. The swastika was dynamic, exotic and folkloristic - perfect for art with a message in the late 19th century. Artists who wanted to evoke a "national consciousness" incorporated the symbol in their paintings.

Traditional decorative patterns in Carelian handiwork sometimes include the swastika. Swastika is hakaristi ("hookcross") or vääräpää ("crooked head") in Finnish.

The swastika of the Finnish Defence Forces has its own story. The blue FAF swastika was originally the symbol of luck of the family of Count von Rosen, who donated to the Finnish "White Army" its first plane,a Morane-Saulnier L fighter aircraft, in 1918 during the Civil War. It was adopted as the official national marking of the Finnish Air Forces and later on, the Army. The Finnish women's voluntary defence organization, the Lotta Svärd, also used a swastika as its symbol and it also still appears in many Finnish medals and decorations, in a visually understated manner.

The Finnish swastika has nothing common with the Nazi party, Nazi ideology or fascism. We Finns, like many other peoples, used it long before the Nazis. After the fall of the Third Reich, the Finnish Defence Forces abandoned the disreputable swastika in favour of the new national marking; the blue and white roundel."

The forum rules said that nazi symbols like swastika is not allowed on forum, but I understand that the finnish swastika in hitorical photos or museum photos is allowed,
because is not a nazi symbol.

Then the Hindu swastika, Korean swastika and other acient symbols are erased from history...... or the actual finnish presidential flag....

If stalin historical inscriptions are now allowed http://worldoftanks....nt-world-tanks/ why not the finnish national swastika?

Thanks.

OmaiGodman #2 Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:12 PM

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Doesn't the Finnish swastika turn the other way?
edit: at least the hooks on the Finnish one are shorter... It's clearly different from the Nazi one, but of course someone who doesn't know about that will simply see HITLER! and start whining about it.

Edited by OmaiGodman, 16 September 2013 - 06:16 PM.


PanzerGrenadier #3 Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:13 PM

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Firstly i have to say as a Finn im really impressed and suprised that you know so mutch about about this!  :smile: The only reason i can think of why the Finnish swastika is also banned is that if some average joe saw an picture of an tank, for example StuG 3 with an Finnish swastika on the internet with an WG/WoT logo on that picture he might not realise that it is not the Nazi symbol swastika and just go apeshit rage how WG allows nazi symbols in the game ect. Even tho everyone who actually is intrested about this kind of thing or history in general can pretty mutch tell the difference between Nazi swastika and the one Finland used i have met more than enough people who think we used the same swastika as germans did in ww2. So i think WG is just playing it safe and not allow any swastikas at all even if they have nothing what so ever to do with Nazis and imo that is understandable.

Edited by PanzerGrenadier, 16 September 2013 - 06:14 PM.


Menda75 #4 Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:20 PM

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Another interesting swastica, the 45º american infantry division (lol)
.
http://en.wikipedia....(United_States)
.
In march 1945, in the soviet-finnish peace conversation, the soviet forced finnish to change the swastika national symbol to the actual rounded. This is the historical reason, but I can´t undestand this is the WG reason......
.
In this link you can see the actual Finnish Presidential Flag, the day that Angela Merkel visited Helsinki
http://forum.worldof...96#entry5928796
I want to now what think the finnish players.

Edited by Menda75, 16 September 2013 - 06:28 PM.


izroda #5 Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:29 PM

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Spoiler                     
And if not, why?

Edited by izroda, 16 September 2013 - 06:31 PM.


OmaiGodman #6 Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:34 PM

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I'm sure the short answer is no, because Hitler. The long answer would be that since the swastika is generally associated with the Nazi's, the simplest thing is to not allow it at all, in order to prevent people from being offended. Some people tend to be very much on edge whenever they find something WWII related they can be offended about, so best is not to give them any fuel.

MeetriX #7 Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:34 PM

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View PostOmaiGodman, on 16 September 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

I'm sure the short answer is no, because Hitler. The long answer would be that since the swastika is generally associated with the Nazi's, the simplest thing is to not allow it at all, in order to prevent people from being offended. Some people tend to be very much on edge whenever they find something WWII related they can be offended about, so best is not to give them any fuel.
Did you mean? in order to prevent stupid/ignorantpeople from being offended?
There are lots of swastikas, but only one Nazi swastika.

Edited by MeetriX, 16 September 2013 - 06:37 PM.


izroda #8 Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:38 PM

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View PostOmaiGodman, on 16 September 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

so best is not to give them any fuel.

But they gave us the stalinist inscriptions.

OmaiGodman #9 Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:48 PM

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View PostMeetriX, on 16 September 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Did you mean? in order to prevent stupid/ignorantpeople from being offended?
There are lots of swastikas, but only one Nazi swastika.

Well, not only them, but I guess in general you could say that.

Personally, I wouldn't even give a damn if they allowed the Nazi swastika in game. It's fine as long as it's in the historical context (I also hate it when there are images of Zeppelins where they edited out the swastikas on the tail). On the other hand, if Wargaming were to allow swastikas I'm sure neo nazis would consider it a sign that they're accepted here - and nobody wants to give them that idea, ever.

Why they allow Stalinist inscriptions? Because the world doesn't give a damn about what Stalin did. Even a lot of people in Russia seem to consider him a hero, rather than a tyrannic ruler who killed millions of people. Remember, Stalin was a victor and victors write history. I'm sure that in Russia a lot of people don't even know what the man did, or they simply convinced themselves (or where convinced by the government) that Stalin himself wasn't behind those things.

Regamer #10 Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:59 PM

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Menda75, hope we'll meet some day here in Finland.  :smile:

Menda75 #11 Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:01 PM

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I am not speaking about the ingame symbols, I´m spaeking about a national symbol.

The symbol of Luftwaffe and Heer was the Iron cross not the swastika. In Finland the swastika was the national symbol 30 years before WW2 started and is not a nazi symbol.

Is allowed or not to post a Finnish Air Force airplane, like this:

Spoiler                     

The forum rules say, nazi symbols are nor allowed, is ok and great. But Finnish National Insignia is NOT a nazi symbol. Why I must erase the photo above?

tigerstreak #12 Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:00 AM

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because Finland handed russia their a55 on a plate
they are bad loosers, who only love those who murdered soviets in the name of the motherland

Edited by tigerstreak, 19 September 2013 - 04:09 AM.


Menda75 #13 Posted 17 September 2013 - 10:03 PM

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View PostRegamer, on 16 September 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Menda75, hope we'll meet some day here in Finland.  :smile:

Maybe one day :), normally goes to Joensuu, but this year was not possible.

Where are the finns mates?, I want to know what they think about it.

CPTANT #14 Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:14 AM

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The Finish swastika used on tanks is physically different from the nazi swastika as it has short arms right? As such I would say it is pretty hard to say it is a nazi symbol.

izroda #15 Posted 18 September 2013 - 10:25 AM

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Not hard at all for Wargaming  :teethhappy:

soolerman #16 Posted 18 September 2013 - 07:15 PM

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The swastika in relationship to war is a purely 20TH century invention. In that form it is or should be, unexceptionable regardless of what country used it. I have a friend with the swastika on his front door. But he is a Hindu so this is ok. If a skinhead pained a swastika on his front door I would throw red paint over it.

See its all about use not the symbol itself. Finland was being used by the Germans to help them in the war with the USSR. Why because we (UK, France and so on) could not help them when the USSR invaded them. But the Germany's could and they had been on Germany's side in WW1 so it all seemed to fit for them. Finland was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Sadly it ended up with a right wing bunch of nutters running things and a deep need in the people to get back at the USSR for what they had done to them. Does this make the Fin's of the time all Hitler loving right wing scum. No But it did make them victims of two of the worst governments in the world at the time.




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