Jump to content


Is there a point for the german light line?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
92 replies to this topic

Zarax999 #41 Posted 26 February 2014 - 07:45 AM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 10117 battles
  • 3,249
  • [TWC] TWC
  • Member since:
    04-08-2011

In any case there is no point in defending the AFK Panther.

It was never designed for the light tank role and it was just Shoehorned in it by Speer who didn't understand the concept of light tank and just wanted to cut what he saw as useless production lines.

 

It's there because it was cheap to make and didn't require any additional modeling job, to "compensate" you got an unhistorical turret and gun.

I spoke against this tank well before it was released, in  super test Pasholok didn't give a damn and the Waffe 0725 was added for "balancing reasons" after every single tester that tried it said it was just good for ramming and hopeless even against other lights if it didn't ram them.

 

Oh, and of course do not except that its scouting capabilities were tested at all... It was just "light VS light" battle.



Tazilon #42 Posted 28 February 2014 - 03:30 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 966 battles
  • 1,746
  • Member since:
    03-31-2012

View PostDefy, on 26 February 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

i played more than 400battles in it, and its crap. Granted im not the best player.But basically its mobile sniper, a flanker with shitty gun that can only hope to pen something on there side, and even then do to low pen for its tier, you will have trouble penning a lot of the time. Tier 8 mediums blows it out of the water, which also have better mm than it. 

 

Nice, but I specifically asked Zarax999.  Still waiting for an answer...

 

Zarax99 - how many battles have you played in your Auf Panther?


Edited by Tazilon, 28 February 2014 - 03:30 AM.


Zarax999 #43 Posted 28 February 2014 - 07:22 AM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 10117 battles
  • 3,249
  • [TWC] TWC
  • Member since:
    04-08-2011

I played it in the only place where it mattered, which was supertest.

It was declared "balanced" after it started winning a semi-decent amount of battles in scenarios that involved 15 AFK Panthers VS 15 other tier VII lights brawling.

 

WG when it decides balancing doesn't care about scouting tactics and even less about skill or unicums, only about win % and to a lesser degree average xp per battle.



Tazilon #44 Posted 28 February 2014 - 02:27 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 966 battles
  • 1,746
  • Member since:
    03-31-2012

View PostZarax999, on 28 February 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

I played it in the only place where it mattered, which was supertest.

It was declared "balanced" after it started winning a semi-decent amount of battles in scenarios that involved 15 AFK Panthers VS 15 other tier VII lights brawling.

 

WG when it decides balancing doesn't care about scouting tactics and even less about skill or unicums, only about win % and to a lesser degree average xp per battle.

 

 

So, what you are saying is that you have NEVER played it in an actual battle, yet you are full of opinion on it?  You condemn it in actual game battles without ever having played it in actual game battles. The truth is - you have no idea how it holds up in actual game battles since you have never played it in one.  

 

For some insane reason, you appear to want every tank to play the same.  The beauty of the German Scout line is that it presents unique tanks.  Each tank has its own challenges and its own character.   We don't need more tanks that play as every other tank in their class.  

 

If we FIXED Scouts in general, the Auf P would be a rock solid tank.   

 

1)  Faster than the tanks they face.

2) See farther than the tanks they face.

3) Realistic environmental camo.

 

If those 3 changes were made, the Auf P would be considered good by almost everyone - even the people who have never really played it - like you..


Edited by Tazilon, 28 February 2014 - 02:28 PM.


Zarax999 #45 Posted 28 February 2014 - 02:46 PM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 10117 battles
  • 3,249
  • [TWC] TWC
  • Member since:
    04-08-2011

A bigger, heavier tank with worse P/W ratio faster than dedicated light designs?

See farther? Ok, plausible as it's higher

As for environmental camo, that's not something that would easily get changed but in any case bigger tank = harder to hide.

 

But let's put aside polemics for once.

Please enlighten me on what are AFK Panther's qualities in WOT and why it would be better than smaller, lighter dedicated designs aside from ramming purposes.

 

Seriously, no sarcasm involved, I really want to understand your POV.



3Form #46 Posted 28 February 2014 - 05:42 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Beta Tester
  • 18229 battles
  • 1,830
  • Member since:
    09-09-2010

Sorry Taz but you say Zarax wants all LTs to play the same, yet in that very post you propose blanket changes to all LTs (a viewpoint you maintain throughout all threads here). I really want to read your posts and see good ideas in them because I'm certain that someone who's played so much lights must have good ideas. But essentially all you propose is giving all lights more speed, more camo and more view-range. What is this if not blanket changes that will make all LTs play the same?

 

Why should all LTs follow the same template? We have medium heavies (FCM 50t), heavy mediums (T26E4) and all different playstyles between: brawlers, flankers, hull down beasts, glass cannons, snipers etc… Why can't we have different LTs with different characters? M24 has low top speed but is crazily nimble, it has low camo but good dpm. Why can't we have variety? The MT-25 could be speedy with good camo but lower view range. The Aufk could be cumbersome but with fantastic view range. The AMX series have great firepower but lack in agility.

In my opinion the root of the problem is the large battle tier spread still applicable to most lights. This makes it impossible to balance LTs properly, they are all consigned to be incredibly fragile and weak (and relegated to attempt only spotting) in high tier matches in order to not be too strong in low tiers. Im fact, with only minor tweaking, many LTs would be good "as is" if they recieved +/-2. Remember when the Type 62 was bumped up to tier 7? WG neglected to change the MM so it could be top tier and didnt see BT11. It was so much fun and demonstrated how LTs could be done.

 

Anyways that's my thoughts. I really don't want to see all LTs become generic "skauts".


Edited by 3Form, 28 February 2014 - 05:44 PM.


Zarax999 #47 Posted 28 February 2014 - 05:45 PM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 10117 battles
  • 3,249
  • [TWC] TWC
  • Member since:
    04-08-2011

Well, there are actually enough paper projects to make an "active" scout and a "passive/counter" scout line at least for the Germans...

I seriously don't get how being against using the fat Panther chassis for a scout translates into "wanting all light tanks to play the same"...

 

 



Tazilon #48 Posted 28 February 2014 - 08:18 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 966 battles
  • 1,746
  • Member since:
    03-31-2012

View PostZarax999, on 28 February 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

A bigger, heavier tank with worse P/W ratio faster than dedicated light designs?

See farther? Ok, plausible as it's higher

As for environmental camo, that's not something that would easily get changed but in any case bigger tank = harder to hide.

 

But let's put aside polemics for once.

Please enlighten me on what are AFK Panther's qualities in WOT and why it would be better than smaller, lighter dedicated designs aside from ramming purposes.

 

Seriously, no sarcasm involved, I really want to understand your POV.

 

 

I didn't say it would be better than other Scouts.  I said it presents a unique style of play for a scout.   Every tank fielded by Wargaming can't be the " best in tier".  But the ideal scenario has all tanks being fielded in WOT being competitive. Especially with changes to fix scouting, the Auf P would be more than competitive.



Tazilon #49 Posted 28 February 2014 - 08:23 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 966 battles
  • 1,746
  • Member since:
    03-31-2012

View Post3Form, on 28 February 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

Sorry Taz but you say Zarax wants all LTs to play the same, yet in that very post you propose blanket changes to all LTs (a viewpoint you maintain throughout all threads here). I really want to read your posts and see good ideas in them because I'm certain that someone who's played so much lights must have good ideas. But essentially all you propose is giving all lights more speed, more camo and more view-range. What is this if not blanket changes that will make all LTs play the same?

 

Why should all LTs follow the same template? We have medium heavies (FCM 50t), heavy mediums (T26E4) and all different playstyles between: brawlers, flankers, hull down beasts, glass cannons, snipers etc… Why can't we have different LTs with different characters? M24 has low top speed but is crazily nimble, it has low camo but good dpm. Why can't we have variety? The MT-25 could be speedy with good camo but lower view range. The Aufk could be cumbersome but with fantastic view range. The AMX series have great firepower but lack in agility.

In my opinion the root of the problem is the large battle tier spread still applicable to most lights. This makes it impossible to balance LTs properly, they are all consigned to be incredibly fragile and weak (and relegated to attempt only spotting) in high tier matches in order to not be too strong in low tiers. Im fact, with only minor tweaking, many LTs would be good "as is" if they recieved +/-2. Remember when the Type 62 was bumped up to tier 7? WG neglected to change the MM so it could be top tier and didnt see BT11. It was so much fun and demonstrated how LTs could be done.

 

Anyways that's my thoughts. I really don't want to see all LTs become generic "skauts".

 

 

Giving them better speed and View Range than the tanks they face does not = they all play the same. Lights almost all have the same speed and view ranges now .  Most go 60 km/h and have view ranges of 390-400m in the higher tiers for scouts.   Those specs are almost evenly matched now.  What makes them plat different is their weight, armor, gun, agility, etc.  My proposals minimally change the relative values of those factors among scouts.  My proposals make lights play differently than MEDIUMS.  THAT is the problem with Scouts.  Wargaming has made Mediums do scout jobs.  THAT is what need to be fixed (besides the stupid enviro camo issues that ignore the physics of light and some camo values for TDs and a few mediums.)


Edited by Tazilon, 28 February 2014 - 08:24 PM.


Tazilon #50 Posted 28 February 2014 - 08:38 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 966 battles
  • 1,746
  • Member since:
    03-31-2012

View PostZarax999, on 28 February 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

Well, there are actually enough paper projects to make an "active" scout and a "passive/counter" scout line at least for the Germans...

I seriously don't get how being against using the fat Panther chassis for a scout translates into "wanting all light tanks to play the same"...

 

 

 

We don't need multiple lines of Scouts for Germany.  Adding more Lights as Scouts for Germany is entirely laughable in a historical sense - the Germans didn't use Light tanks in their recon units!  They started off using motorcycles and armored cars and ended up using mostly half tracks and armored cars.

 

We need to fix the problems with Scouting. THAT is the priority.  Fix Scouting.,  Add more map,s especially Assault and Encounter maps.  THEN add more tank, preferably from countries which don't have full lines or aren't represented at all.

 

Fix the insane Russian tech tree. They have no scout line at all despite using a mix of light tanks and armored cars in recon units throughout the war.

 

Adding tanks just to add tanks is a huge part of the problems which currently exist in the game.

 


Edited by Tazilon, 28 February 2014 - 08:39 PM.


Zarax999 #51 Posted 28 February 2014 - 09:19 PM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 10117 battles
  • 3,249
  • [TWC] TWC
  • Member since:
    04-08-2011

I still fail to see AFKP role.

In supertest it was advertised as "anti-scout" but I don't see anything in it that a fast medium (or VK2801) couldn't do the same or better.

 

Seriously, I see it as hard to properly balance in game and it's really something that was never designed to be a light/scout tank in the first place, just shoe-horned in the role by a bureaucrat interested in cutting corners.



BlueDaedricDragon #52 Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:57 AM

    Sergeant

  • Player
  • 11400 battles
  • 270
  • [-LOCO] -LOCO
  • Member since:
    03-31-2013

Honestly I would prefer 2 german light tank branches, one having tanks like the Awful Panther and one having the more proper "scout" tanks. As Zarax said there should be enough tanks to cover both branches and a high tier premium light tank.

 

And with all due respect Tazilion your one of the few people who think the Awful Panther is good(while I do think its sometimes fun to ram other light tanks in it :P)

 

So yeah, I wish there would be two german light branches that cover light tanks of both types to have more variety between play-styles.


Edited by JJ2Gamer, 01 March 2014 - 12:58 AM.


Tazilon #53 Posted 01 March 2014 - 05:41 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 966 battles
  • 1,746
  • Member since:
    03-31-2012

View PostZarax999, on 28 February 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

I still fail to see AFKP role.

In supertest it was advertised as "anti-scout" but I don't see anything in it that a fast medium (or VK2801) couldn't do the same or better.

 

Seriously, I see it as hard to properly balance in game and it's really something that was never designed to be a light/scout tank in the first place, just shoe-horned in the role by a bureaucrat interested in cutting corners.

 

Seriously, you have never played it in a live battles so you have no business commenting on it.  The reason you can't see how it might work is because you have 0 battles in it.



Tazilon #54 Posted 01 March 2014 - 05:44 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 966 battles
  • 1,746
  • Member since:
    03-31-2012

View PostJJ2Gamer, on 28 February 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

Honestly I would prefer 2 german light tank branches, one having tanks like the Awful Panther and one having the more proper "scout" tanks. As Zarax said there should be enough tanks to cover both branches and a high tier premium light tank.

 

And with all due respect Tazilion your one of the few people who think the Awful Panther is good(while I do think its sometimes fun to ram other light tanks in it :P)

 

So yeah, I wish there would be two german light branches that cover light tanks of both types to have more variety between play-styles.

 

 

We do not need 2 German Light tank branches.  Zarax is Mr Lets Keep This Historical - well - Germans DID NOT USE Lights in RECON units.  Lets balance the tanks we have and move on to other issues.  There are much more important changes to make in World of Tank Destroyers than give Germany 5,000 tanks.



Zarax999 #55 Posted 01 March 2014 - 08:06 AM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 10117 battles
  • 3,249
  • [TWC] TWC
  • Member since:
    04-08-2011

View PostTazilon, on 01 March 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

 

Seriously, you have never played it in a live battles so you have no business commenting on it.  The reason you can't see how it might work is because you have 0 battles in it.

 

I'm not commenting it, I'm asking what you think it's good at specifically because you're experienced at it and it's very hard to find any positive opinions on the tank.



Tazilon #56 Posted 02 March 2014 - 05:35 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 966 battles
  • 1,746
  • Member since:
    03-31-2012

View PostZarax999, on 28 February 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

A bigger, heavier tank with worse P/W ratio faster than dedicated light designs?

See farther? Ok, plausible as it's higher

As for environmental camo, that's not something that would easily get changed but in any case bigger tank = harder to hide.

 

But let's put aside polemics for once.

Please enlighten me on what are AFK Panther's qualities in WOT and why it would be better than smaller, lighter dedicated designs aside from ramming purposes.

 

Seriously, no sarcasm involved, I really want to understand your POV.

 

 

Environmental could EASILY be changed.  Just make it what it used to be - you know, back when it made more sense.



Tazilon #57 Posted 02 March 2014 - 05:41 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 966 battles
  • 1,746
  • Member since:
    03-31-2012

View PostZarax999, on 01 March 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

 

I'm not commenting it, I'm asking what you think it's good at specifically because you're experienced at it and it's very hard to find any positive opinions on the tank.

 

http://www.tazilon.net/HoF/AufPantherHall.html

 

No one will argue it is the best Tier  VII scout.  But, as I have already said, EVERY tank can't be the best.  That doesn't mean they are bad.  People who don't like the Auf P generally try to play it the wrong way.  You can't play the Hellcat and T95 the same way yet they are both TDs.  That doesn't mean one of them is bad.  You can't play the Auf P and T71 the same way yet they are both Scouts.  That doesn't mean one of them is bad.  

 



Kyphe #58 Posted 02 March 2014 - 10:09 PM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 16253 battles
  • 2,115
  • Member since:
    03-26-2011

I never had that much of a problem with the auf, 54% wr so just a bit below my average but hmmm it takes a bit of a mindset to play that I don't have that often, so It spends most of the time parked, but when i do play it, fun is had.

 

The main thing is don't lead the field in the early game, if you scout do a shallow circuit and come back, this tank is more of a late game killer and stalker, don't listen to the go scout numpties, wait till you have a good idea where the enemy is on your map before you make a plan.

 

 



lnfernaI #59 Posted 09 March 2014 - 08:50 PM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 33290 battles
  • 4,499
  • [ICYA] ICYA
  • Member since:
    09-15-2012

View PostDefy, on 04 October 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Luch is only german light i can recomend . It got fantastic gun for its tier (good burst + pen). Meaning even if u land in highest, 8tier match, u can penetrate sides and rear of most heavily armored tanks. Its also smallest of german light tanks with scout mm. If u gonna play german scouts stop with Luch. Everything else = crap level.


i prefer pz 1c ,because at rare chances (15%), you can get into Province with binos,and optics and basically gun down everyone. I dont like Luchz.



lnfernaI #60 Posted 09 March 2014 - 08:53 PM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 33290 battles
  • 4,499
  • [ICYA] ICYA
  • Member since:
    09-15-2012

View PostTazilon, on 01 March 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

 

 

We do not need 2 German Light tank branches.  Zarax is Mr Lets Keep This Historical - well - Germans DID NOT USE Lights in RECON units.  Lets balance the tanks we have and move on to other issues.  There are much more important changes to make in World of Tank Destroyers than give Germany 5,000 tanks.


Dont act like a historian and a pro with German lights -_-.

No one cares.






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users