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The Toaster of Doom (Pz Sfl. IVc)


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hscorpio #81 Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:16 AM

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I find it hard to believe some of you are complaining about the top gun, yet none of you seem to be able to figure out that the first two guns are much better.
Those playing with the stock gun or the short 88 seem to have a good time in it, I finished the grind with a 64% WR, 2 kills/game avg.
For whatever reason, a lot of folks voted for the long 88 in the poll, probably without ever playing the tank. The long 88 is crap. 200mm Penetration is unnecessary, DPM is low, gun arc and aim time are way worse. Not to mention the tank is much slower with the heavier gun.
Stick to the other guns and you have a fairly good tank destroyer.
And whoever states that the tank has no camo, if you're driving the tank without camo-net, -paint and -skill, then yes, you will be spotted. Otherwise the tank has very good camo.

Edited by hscorpio, 08 November 2013 - 01:17 AM.


Wootanklan #82 Posted 08 November 2013 - 02:28 AM

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Hail to the mighty Flaktoaster, just did my 10000th kill in the game. (Using short 88)
Spoiler                     
This thing isn't just a nice TD, it also has character in a world of fantasy tanks.
I enjoy looking at it and I will keep it for sure.

Edited by Wootanklan, 08 November 2013 - 03:22 AM.


Banelord300 #83 Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:34 AM

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View PostWootanklan, on 08 November 2013 - 02:28 AM, said:

Hail to the mighty Flaktoaster, just did my 10000th kill in the game. (Using short 88)
Spoiler                     
This thing isn't just a nice TD, it also has character in a world of fantasy tanks.
I enjoy looking at it and I will keep it for sure.
Agreed but I hope they someday do something about the long 88 since only thoose who cant live without high pen will use it but even then its so rubbish.

christos_swc #84 Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:19 PM

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View Posthscorpio, on 08 November 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

I find it hard to believe some of you are complaining about the top gun, yet none of you seem to be able to figure out that the first two guns are much better.
Those playing with the stock gun or the short 88 seem to have a good time in it, I finished the grind with a 64% WR, 2 kills/game avg.

It's nice that you finished the grind, the whole discussion though is about if this tank is actually worth keeping.
The simple fact that the top gun is actually worse than the stock one tells the tale.
As for the 200mm of pen being useless you forget that the 130mm of pen of the short 88 is left wanting even in tier 6 matches, let alone tier 7.
Yeah, I know, everyone's so uber here he snap shots weak spots at long range and all that bull.

hscorpio #85 Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:37 PM

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Use the stock gun if you think the short 88 is lacking penetration. That's what I did, worked well enough.

And for me the tank is not a keeper (can only have so many tier 5 tanks, pretty tough competition in that slot) - but it was far from unplayble and I had my fair share of fun along the way.

LeeQuid #86 Posted 09 November 2013 - 09:48 AM

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View Posthscorpio, on 08 November 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Use the stock gun if you think the short 88 is lacking penetration. That's what I did, worked well enough.

And for me the tank is not a keeper (can only have so many tier 5 tanks, pretty tough competition in that slot) - but it was far from unplayble and I had my fair share of fun along the way.

Are you kidding?...there's like 4mm of penetration difference btw 1st and 2nd gun.
If you could pen tanks with one gun you could pen with the other gun too, and the 88 is good enough for a tier 5 TD
You'll have problem penetrating tier 7's but the same could be said about stock gun and at least with 88 you'll do 220 DPS instead of 125.

hscorpio #87 Posted 09 November 2013 - 01:34 PM

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Quote

Are you kidding?...there's like 4mm of penetration difference btw 1st and 2nd gun.
Firstly:
Stock gun: 139 mm penetration
short 88: 132 mm penetration
So the difference is not "like 4", it's 7, and that's quite substantial, if you try and penetrate tanks that have effective armor of ~120 mm, like IS-tanks, angled KV-1s etc.

Secondly:
DPS commonly means 'damage per second'.
If you say, stock gun does 125 DPS, short 88 220 DPS, I can only think you must be talking about 'damage per shot', commonly reffered to as 'alpha damage' in WoT.
Alpha damage is an important stat for tanks that are used to peek-a-boo, like most heavies and some mediums.
If you sit in a bush far away and hidden from the enemy, the more important stat is accuracy, aim time and damage per minute.

7,5cm L/60: Acc .35, aim time 1.7, dpm 2025
8.8cm L/56: Acc .35, aim time 1.9, dpm 1940

So the stock gun beats the short 88 in terms of penetration, aim time and damage per minute.
Also, because it's a lower caliber, shots won't negate as much of your camouflage.

If you like the second gun more, than fair enough, but please don't come in here like your opinion is the only one that matters. Especially if you haven't done the math beforehand.

Quote

You'll have problem penetrating tier 7's but the same could be said about stock gun
Using the stock gun, I had no trouble penetrating IS-1/2s, which is about the toughest thing you'll encounter, apart from british TDs. And even the long 88 will bounce on those if you don't aim for the weakspots.

MetalManiac69 #88 Posted 09 November 2013 - 03:48 PM

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that 7mm difference in penetration between stock gun and the short 88 is unnoticeable, you will bounce just as many shots with each gun, it only depends on RNG...

brummiemk1 #89 Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:33 AM

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Hello,
I cannot make my mind up about which is the best barrel to use. Been having sh*t loads of bad luck in this thing, playing ok in it and having some good games but seem to lose in it far too much. I recently grinded the first 88 and started using that one and it was alright but yesterday I decided to change back to the stock gun and I feel that this one is better suited for it. Won 2 games on the bounce and low and behold, only got my 'mastery badge' ace tanker with it in the second one. I was sweating when the last enemy left, was an AT-2 but shot him in side and won. (Could I have done it with second gun, not sure).
I have watched a few vid's on this thing including one from 'Jingles' and 'Bloodstainer' (Thank you to you sir's) and I can't wait to see how the top barrel pans out when I do get it although again, it seems maybe a bit OTT for what is needed, plus the bad traverse, I shall wait and see.
Camo wise, don't find it too bad actually, have paint and camo net on it. Only played 25 games on it so far but have got the WR up to only about 36%, the Marder 38T I had 58% in 31 games and that one was great fun. Is this one a keeper though, I think maybe, like I said it is fun to play win or lose.
Good luck and happy tanking.

Edited by brummiemk1, 10 November 2013 - 10:13 AM.


DangerMouse #90 Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:58 AM

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Well purchased this crazy monster yesterday, got my ace tanker and a few other awards in the very first battle... el haluf fortunatly.

Used the xp to unlock all modules other than guns, but as others have said either the middle gun or stock gun look to be the best best, gun traverse with the stock gun is great which goes someway to negate its huge huge silhouette.

DM

Aever #91 Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:18 AM

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This is an interesting vehicle. Definitely not for everyone (aka, it's not Russian), definitely full of weaknesses, but overall a decent machine if played properly. Otherwise, I would imagine it is a nightmare to play.
First and most important, if you just started playing this vehicle let me point out the obvious: it has no friggin' armor whatsoever. None. Nada. Nicht. If you are spotted outside of cover, you die. Very quickly. So stay back, preferably with some hard cover near by and snipe away. If you go anywhere near the front lines you will die. Repeatedly and pointlessly. You have well above average mobility, even in stock configuration. You have what feels like poor cammo (probably due to the weird, tall, shape of the vehicle), but feels enough to keep you safe when firing from considerable range.
What's a bit weird is that you can skip a lot of the modules offered for research. The stock engine is fine, so you don't need the upgraded one. Same with tracks. You do need the radio. The guns are a bit awkward as well. Both the first two guns are a viable options to use until you move to the next vehicle. The top gun is, in my opinion, not worth it, unless you plan on keeping this tank. On paper it looks like a monster gun, but it will reduce the awesome firing arc to a value next to nothing. If you are well experienced playing TD's with very narrow firing arc .. then you might be fine with it. If not, don't waste your exp, just go straight for the next tier. The first two guns will both have problems penetrating anything with decent armor (KV-'s1 and up), but will horribly destroy anything else. Pick your targets wisely to maximize damage and profit.
Oh, you have almost no gun depression, which means you must position yourself on flat terrain. In compensation, you can shoot planes out of the sky. Enemy fighter planes and dive bombers will fear you like nothing else.
Lastly, this tank is horrible in bad teams. You need people to spot for you, you need heavies to block the enemy at range. If your team doesn't do that you won't be effective. If it does, you can do massive amounts of damage. Most "sniper" tanks  have this problem, so be aware than playing this thing in random teams can be a frustrating experience.

Edited by Aever, 10 November 2013 - 11:21 AM.


kyozu #92 Posted 11 November 2013 - 10:39 AM

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Finished this tank this weekend but some games were just horrible as either my platoon took too much damage/kills or I had solo fail teams while performing really good :P
I played the tank with the first unlockable gun which is pretty decent however versus tier 7s even gold could lack some penetration if shooting from a mid-long distance.



Tank_Killer1 #93 Posted 11 November 2013 - 08:29 PM

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My best game with it so far ignore the credits.  :smile:

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Banelord300 #94 Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:53 PM

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How can you have spotted so many did they all rush the middle? It can happen since I got scout with B2 on Karelia going 9 line  :glasses:.

CuteGargoyle #95 Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:11 AM

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Whenever I play this thing I get the impression everybody can see you from the other side of the map.

Hide at the back behind a bush and shove a tree down in front as well. Fit camo paint and a net.
6th sense lights up when the closest enemy is approx 450m away and you start taking shells. Nothing ever bounces so 6 seconds later, if you have no hard cover, game over. Everybody knows you can use auto aim and it will always hit a weak spot, because the entire vehicle is a weak spot. Size wise it is only slightly smaller than a cathedral so missing isn't going to happen often.

I have had a couple of semi decent scores in this  but it depends, almost entirely, for it's success on good team mates.  In fact it reminds me, more than a little, of trying to play direct fire TD mode in Arty.

You will never carry a team in this thing even against average opposition.

I believe it would struggle and almost certainly fail 9 times out of 10 against  trolls in tier 2 tanks. (if not even more often.)

And my bum does look big in it.   :sad: ........ so I seriously hate this thing.

christos_swc #96 Posted 12 November 2013 - 08:01 AM

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View PostCuteGargoyle, on 12 November 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

I believe it would struggle and almost certainly fail 9 times out of 10 against trolls in tier 2 tanks. (if not even more often.)

And my bum does look big in it. :sad: ........ so I seriously hate this thing.

I've seen a unicum in the new tier 7 German TD get killed by a tier 4 I think scout with an autocannon for all his health, he just couldn't turn fast enough and he didn't have enough armor to stop the bloody autocannon from hurting him with every shot.
Dude reloaded 4 times in the process making the whole ordeal more painful.
My brother has his own WoT account, I only play German, he only has played Russian tanks so far.
So I took out his Russian tier 5 TD, the SU85 that hasn't had the top gun yet, it has the derp 122mm.
The introduction of the new German TDs must be a blessing to all derp gun lovers.
I never failed to one shot a toaster and on two occasions I shot a Nashorn I got well above 400 rolls.
Oh well, that so far has been the best fun I've had with the new German line...

Aco_shock #97 Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:58 AM

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How have you trained your crew?
I'm a bit puzzled 'cause it has two gunners and loaders.
(IMHO, the tanks camo is so bad, that there's no point to waste crew skills on that)

samphilconlor #98 Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:47 AM

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I just don't get the hate for this tank I love it, best guns for tier of any tank highly mobile yes it has no armour but get used to it. WIth a decent crew camo isn't that bad. Loved it on the test server and recently got it live so far so good:

http://www.vbaddict....1/pz-sfl-ivc-63

Short sample of games admittedly but so far overall 78% win rate and my games that have uploaded correctly 1900 WN7 rating nearly 300% damage ratio what's not to like? I sold my Stug and moved the crew over for this and I plan on keeping it permanently. If you are used to TD's this thing is pretty damn epic.

CroPanzer #99 Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:32 PM

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I just love it :)

momo03 #100 Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:54 PM

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View Postmoenbeer, on 31 October 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

Myth or not.. I made a small test.
[...few battles noted...]
Just to come back to this: I have some 70 battles in it and have just yesterday purchased the 88L74. In the 70 battles before I have encountered a lot of tier 7s, so it's still a myth. What you made as a "test" is statistically absolutely irrelevant.
Apart from that: it's one of the most pleasant stock-grinds (although I upgraded engine and radio before I played it). The 75mm is capable enough to perform, but the toaster got a real boost with the short 88mm, works much better for me.
Played but 2 battles with the 88L74 and can't comment on it so far.

Edited by momo03, 15 November 2013 - 12:56 PM.