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Possible high tier light replacement: Panzer-Aufklaerer auf E-25


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Zarax999 #1 Posted 07 November 2013 - 09:00 AM

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Late war Germany found itself lacking capable light recon tanks amongst its many shortages.
There were a few obsolete light tanks pressed into the role but by 1945 they were mostly worn out, with the few working remains hopelessly outmatched by Soviet and Allied fast medium tanks.

One answer to this was the usual flurry of paper projects, which however proved to be too complex and expensive (VK 16.02), using precious chassis and making little sense (Recon Panther) or being underpowered from inception for the role (early turreted Jagdpanzer 38 (t) with Panzer IV turret and to a lesser extent the Panzer 38D).

Spielberger briefly mentions that the E-25 proposal included a recon tank version but gives no further details, leaving us still into obscurity.
There is however one further, unlikely source that might bring us further details, although usually regarded as something very different altogether: Hahn's "Klein-Tiger".

While that design is often looked as somewhat of an hoax, the following article gives a new perspective, bringing us a new high tier light replacement:

http://zxhistory.blo...erer-auf-e.html

filefool #2 Posted 07 November 2013 - 11:19 AM

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Although i was really looking forward to the RU251 this would be a decent replacement. If it's as mobile as my E-25 (maybe a little bit better at turning) then i'm all for it. But i still would wish for a sexier turret than those boxy Pz IV derivatives. A bigger version of the VK.1602 turret would be awesome.

PS: Is WG also considering the Pz 38(d) for implementation in the german tree?

Zarax999 #3 Posted 07 November 2013 - 11:22 AM

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Yes, official answer is that priority is low but definitely considered.
EDIT: The article deals with the strictly historical side, in WOT more options could be considered, although that Pz IV turret would give the player pretty decent protection hull down at least VS lights and mediums.

Edited by Zarax999, 07 November 2013 - 11:23 AM.


GehakteMolen #4 Posted 07 November 2013 - 09:17 PM

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View PostZarax999, on 07 November 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Yes, official answer is that priority is low but definitely considered.
EDIT: The article deals with the strictly historical side, in WOT more options could be considered, although that Pz IV turret would give the player pretty decent protection hull down at least VS lights and mediums.

it looks good, and seems balanced (depending on gun, it can be either tier 7 or 8 (where tier 8 makes most sense))

1 problem, isnt that 10H64 a PAW (= smoothbore gun)? coz i guess WG is (really) strict in there: no smootbore, they can ofc always say: smoothbore allowed, as long as plan / gun is from <1945, but its still a dangerous slope / edge (last thing i want is medium tanks with 400-600mm penetration and 500-6000 dmg (125mm gun for T62 anyone :p)

i myself hope PAW will be allowed, it can be a good mid-tier gun solution for certain tanks, and add some diversity

Zarax999 #5 Posted 07 November 2013 - 09:45 PM

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We're lobbying hard with WG to make an exception for 10H64.
The main argument is that this is a low velocity HE chucker, not an high performance steel dart thrower.

Tazilon #6 Posted 09 November 2013 - 01:27 AM

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The entire game is only loosely historical.  Many fantasy tanks already exist..why not just create fantasy specs for the RU251?

Zarax999 #7 Posted 09 November 2013 - 09:22 AM

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Apparently they don't like doing it this way or maybe they have a strong dislike for implementing post war tanks...
I'd be happy to have this in place of the AFK Panther TBH.

BlueDaedricDragon #8 Posted 09 November 2013 - 11:07 AM

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View PostZarax999, on 09 November 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Apparently they don't like doing it this way or maybe they have a strong dislike for implementing post war tanks...
I'd be happy to have this in place of the AFK Panther TBH.

Would love having the E-25 scout as a tier 7 and the RU-251 as the tier 8 scout. I also don't understand why they can't try to just guess some specifications, like they did with the E-75s armor values.

spuff #9 Posted 09 November 2013 - 01:14 PM

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Why not buff the Leo a bit and put it at tier 6, move the pz3/4 to a tier 5 light (it plays near enough as a light) put 2801 back to pre 8.4 level at tier 7 and scrap the afk panther or make it decent for a tier 8!

Askorti #10 Posted 09 November 2013 - 02:19 PM

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I have an even better idea. Put Pz 38 n.A into the scout line, up-tier Luchs, Leopard and Cougar, then replace Afk Panther with RU251.
In order to fix a hole in med line, put Pz III before Pz IV.
Then everything would make much more sense, as you'd not be forced to play a scout tank in order to grind Porsche and Henschel lines of heavies.
Of course if they were to up-tier current scouts they'd have to give them some small buffs.

Edited by Askorti, 09 November 2013 - 02:19 PM.


Zarax999 #11 Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:09 AM

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There is no way the current lights could be up-tiered even further, they are over-stretched even now.

My personal proposal would be this:

PZ II
PZ IIG
Luchs
VK 1602
VK 1602 Ausf M*
P. Aufklaerer auf E-25
Spähpanzer Kette

*Ausf M was the 26 ton VK 1602 proposal with 80mm frontal armor.

Askorti #12 Posted 10 November 2013 - 10:05 AM

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Where is VK2801?
And why do we need more armor on a scout tank? Everything it meets will pen it effortlessly.

Zarax999 #13 Posted 10 November 2013 - 10:09 AM

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VK 2801 would go in the 2nd light line, which would also end up in the kette:

PZ I
Pz Ic
P. Aufklaerer 38(d)
Panzer 38(D)
VK 2801
AFK Panther

Sliktastic #14 Posted 10 November 2013 - 01:33 PM

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View PostZarax999, on 10 November 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

There is no way the current lights could be up-tiered even further, they are over-stretched even now.
My personal proposal would be this:
PZ II
PZ IIG
Luchs
VK 1602
VK 1602 Ausf M*
P. Aufklaerer auf E-25
Spähpanzer Kette
*Ausf M was the 26 ton VK 1602 proposal with 80mm frontal armor.
Here a possible elite version of the VK16.02(M), or VK16.02(MAN) what you like to call it more  :smile: : http://fhsw.wikia.co.../VK_16.02_(MAN) (by the way why you call the tank Ausf. M? Ausführung means just mark. See Doyle PzTracts 20/2 P.66ff).
I think it would be a good tier VI after the Leo. Like Fhsw, WG could add a fantasy top turret with the 7.5 cm Pak 41: http://en.wikipedia....i/7.5_cm_Pak_41 which is a L/57 (not to mix up with the old konisch/Waffe 0725, which was a L/58).
So the VK16.02(M) could be the none-derp path/line/branch..... and the VK2801 could be the derp path.
So I would say that way:
None-derp:
V: VK16.02 Leo (MIAG/D)
VI: VK16.02 (M)
VII: VK28.02(D)
VIII: Spähpanzer Kette
Derp:
VI: VK28.01(K)
VII: Your tank.... (plz not the Aufk Panther)
VIII: If the Aufk Panther stays.... then at least here your tank.... with the PAW.

Edited by Staufen, 10 November 2013 - 07:15 PM.


filefool #15 Posted 11 November 2013 - 10:00 AM

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Since the Vk 1602 is the sexiest tank in the game (at least in my opinion  :blinky: ) i would really like to see an uparmored, upgunned version of it. But knowing WG they would either make it too sluggish for a scout or to big to hide the damn thing.

Askorti #16 Posted 11 November 2013 - 10:04 AM

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It's beyond me why would you want to uparmor a scout tank? Upgun, sure, everyone would love to deal more damage, but armor? Everything will pen you, so why would you need more armor to slow you down? I'd be fine with having 1/1/1 armor in exchange for some really good gun, mobility and camo on a scout tank.
The only good reason to have good (frontal) armor on a scout is when you want to ram someone.

Edited by Askorti, 11 November 2013 - 10:05 AM.


Zarax999 #17 Posted 11 November 2013 - 10:25 AM

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I don't want to up-armor a scout, the german engineers did.
MIAG proposed a VK1602 with 80mm frontal and 60mm side armor.

Kyphe #18 Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:11 AM

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View PostSliktastic, on 10 November 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:


There is no way the current lights could be up-tiered even further, they are over-stretched even now.
My personal proposal would be this:
PZ II
PZ IIG
Luchs
VK 1602
VK 1602 Ausf M*
P. Aufklaerer auf E-25
Spähpanzer Kette
*Ausf M was the 26 ton VK 1602 proposal with 80mm frontal armor.

Here a possible elite version of the VK16.02(M), or  what you like to call it more :smile: : http://fhsw.wikia.co.../VK_16.02_(MAN) (by the way why you call the tank Ausf. M? Ausführung means just mark. See Doyle PzTracts 20/2 P.66ff).
I think it would be a good tier VI after the Leo. Like Fhsw, WG could add a fantasy top turret with the 7.5 cm Pak 41: http://en.wikipedia....i/7.5_cm_Pak_41 which is a L/57 (not to mix up with the old konisch/Waffe 0725, which was a L/58).
So the VK16.02(M) could be the none-derp path/line/branch..... and the VK2801 could be the derp path.
So I would say that way:
None-derp:
V: VK16.02 Leo (MIAG/D)
VI: VK16.02 (M)
VII: VK28.02(D)
VIII: Spähpanzer Kette
Derp:
VI: VK28.01(K)
VII: Your tank.... (plz not the Aufk Panther)
VIII: If the Aufk Panther stays.... then at least here your tank.... with the PAW.

 

The turret on the VK16.02(MAN) model shown on that link would never fit anything bigger than the 5cm gun, the pak 41 gun breach is a tiny bit smaller than the pak40 but not enough to be crammed in that tiny space. it would have to use the turret from the VK28.02 or of similar size



Tazilon #19 Posted 14 December 2013 - 05:37 PM

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Let's sort out our tank categories - that is, make Lights, Mediums, Heavies, etc distinct and separate types of tanks (lights and mediums are hugely blurred from tier VI on) - before we add more fantasy tanks, eh?

Edited by Tazilon, 14 December 2013 - 05:37 PM.


Zarax999 #20 Posted 14 December 2013 - 06:05 PM

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Err, what would be the fantasy tank you're talking about?




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