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French Tank Tree Wtf?


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Darzok #41 Posted 11 April 2011 - 04:47 PM

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Put it this way the french tanks was that good in ww2 they lost in a shocking bad way that is still why many people look down on the french for been poor fighters and cowards.

Its starting to annoy me this massive lie about how the french had the best tanks in 1940 they never and saying they did will not make it so.

KV-1 was made in 1939 and was much better than any thing the french had.

The T-34 was built in 1940 again much better than what the french had yes they was only in great numbers in 41+.

The matilda 2 was built in 37 and again much better than any thing the french had.

Over all maybe at a big push the french had the best tanks form mid 1930-37 and even that is questionable.

costi #42 Posted 11 April 2011 - 04:52 PM

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View PostGehakteMolen, on 11 April 2011 - 04:19 PM, said:

too bad the biggest air force earth ever saw, the Luftwaffe, (luftwaffe with 2.2 million employes, almost the size of ENITRE US army+navy+air force) wiped the french (: IF the germans had built a decent anti-ship plane + somekind of Von Mannstein general instead of Goring, they had raped not only france but also UK (even now they got rly, rly close, RAF was almost destroyed, Hitler saved the Brits because he them by ordering to stop attacking airfield, but instead attack Londen, this gave the RAF the chance to regroup, when Barbarosa started they had ``won``...

so perhaps the french tanks where better, but WW2 was the first war who was decided by air, not by tanks/ground force, thats why after the war western country`s hardly put anything in tanks, they get toasted by air anyway... (but thats another discussion:p)
And your point is? World Of Planes was announced not so long ago ;)

Hammerbolt #43 Posted 11 April 2011 - 05:11 PM

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View Postdarzok, on 11 April 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

Put it this way the french tanks was that good in ww2 they lost in a shocking bad way that is still why many people look down on the french for been poor fighters and cowards.

Its starting to annoy me this massive lie about how the french had the best tanks in 1940 they never and saying they did will not make it so.
Then stop watching the History Channel and go do some research.

View Postdarzok, on 11 April 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

KV-1 was made in 1939 and was much better than any thing the french had.

The T-34 was built in 1940 again much better than what the french had yes they was only in great numbers in 41+.

The matilda 2 was built in 37 and again much better than any thing the french had.


No one's saying the french had the best tanks of all, simply that they were better (in many ways) to the germans. And you're mixing stuff up...

The KV was tested in small numbers in the Winter war vs the Finns. Yes, it was better than the french in armor and gun. Only a fool would deny this.

The first production T-34s only came out in September 1940. Long past the french campaign.

The Matilda 2 was ordered in 1937, but there were only 2 operational in September 1939. Only 2 dozen went to France... it was a solid tank yes, and another headache for the germans, but it's armour was inferior to the B1 (and pretty much matched the S35), and had an inferior gun.

theta0123 #44 Posted 11 April 2011 - 05:18 PM

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View Posthammerbolt, on 11 April 2011 - 05:11 PM, said:


The first production T-34s only came out in September 1940. Long past the french campaign.

The Matilda 2 was ordered in 1937, but there were only 2 operational in September 1939. Only 2 dozen went to France... it was a solid tank yes, and another headache for the germans, but it's armour was inferior to the B1 (and pretty much matched the S35), and had an inferior gun.
1. The Char G1 had 60mm sloped armor and high velocity tank gun, while having simular mobility then T34

About the Matilda 2. It had better armor then the char B1. Frontal armor of B1=60mm  Matilda 2=78
The matilda 2 had a better anti-tank gun, but did NOT had an high explosive shell. Making it very inferior towards anti-tank guns
The char B1 was a solid, well performing tank. it wiped out anything the germans had in both firepower, armor and even speed sometimes
The replacement of the chars where even better armed and armoured, and corrected many mistakes of the Char B1

RustiSwordz #45 Posted 11 April 2011 - 06:08 PM

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View PostBatman, on 11 April 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:


I cant wait to burn a lot of T-54 in a CENTURION!


Im with the Bat on this one the Centurion will own the lot! trouble is you will have to go through a terrible tree to get the Emperor of all Tanks!

GehakteMolen #46 Posted 11 April 2011 - 06:57 PM

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View Postcosti, on 11 April 2011 - 04:52 PM, said:

And your point is? World Of Planes was announced not so long ago ;)

the germans didnt care for tanks, they put everything in subs and planes (to exaggerate a little), they only needed fast tanks for blitz, stukas could bomb the shit out of any srs tread any way.... (as they did)

no matter what, france would always got spanked by the germans in 1940, the german army was the strongest army of the world in that time, best commanders + biggest/best/most advanced airforce + massive amount of soldiers (and germany had the biggest population+industrie of europe).

the french command was not that shit, its just the gers were so smart... also UK and USSR got outbrained 3130190 times...

french expected a ww1 scenario, while germany showed in Poland and Norway what kind of ``game`` they wanted to play...

Zenith #47 Posted 11 April 2011 - 07:15 PM

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The real problem with French tanks was with the poor internal layout, especially the one man turrets. The workload was ridiculous, with the commander having to acquire targets, load the gun, fire it, and command the tank, all at the same time. Not to mention coordinating with other vehicles and infantry. It's too much, and it showed.

The Russians had the same problem, but thankfully for them they had both the time and good sense to correct it. The British had realised fairly early on that one man turrets were a no go, with both 2 and eventually 3 man turrets being the norm. Likewise with the Americans.

Aside from this, French armour was generally very good for the time. It was simply let down by poor crew performance (because of the reasons previously cited), and the ineptness of the French military leadership.

Waroch #48 Posted 11 April 2011 - 07:28 PM

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View PostGehakteMolen, on 11 April 2011 - 06:57 PM, said:

the germans didnt care for tanks, they put everything in subs and planes (to exaggerate a little), they only needed fast tanks for blitz, stukas could bomb the shit out of any srs tread any way.... (as they did)

no matter what, france would always got spanked by the germans in 1940, the german army was the strongest army of the world in that time, best commanders + biggest/best/most advanced airforce + massive amount of soldiers (and germany had the biggest population+industrie of europe).

the french command was not that shit, its just the gers were so smart... also UK and USSR got outbrained 3130190 times...

french expected a ww1 scenario, while germany showed in Poland and Norway what kind of ``game`` they wanted to play...

Was the Luftwaffe really that bigger in numbers?
I can't find the figures now, but as far as i remember, it was about 4,000 aircrafts for both the Luftwaffe and the Armée de l'Air. Now obviously the Luftwaffe had large quanties of excellent aircrafts, while the best French aircrafts were available only in marginal numbers.
I really doubt the Germans would have passed in 1940 if Dewoitine, Breguet and Arsenal de l'Aéronautique (and others o/c) had been able to produce their most modern designs in time

GehakteMolen #49 Posted 11 April 2011 - 08:08 PM

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View PostWaroch, on 11 April 2011 - 07:28 PM, said:

Was the Luftwaffe really that bigger in numbers?
I can't find the figures now, but as far as i remember, it was about 4,000 aircrafts for both the Luftwaffe and the Armée de l'Air. Now obviously the Luftwaffe had large quanties of excellent aircrafts, while the best French aircrafts were available only in marginal numbers.
I really doubt the Germans would have passed in 1940 if Dewoitine, Breguet and Arsenal de l'Aéronautique (and others o/c) had been able to produce their most modern designs in time

on its top (somewhere in 1940 or so) thew luftwaffe had over 2.000.000 soldiers/personal (including paratroopers)

about planes: hard to say this: http://www.historyle...leofbritain.htm

says 4000-3000 on the (north)western front (changing over time), since about 50% (or so?) of the german panzer units where in poland (they were afraid of USSR:P) the same will count for the planes i think/assume, also during the first pasrt of the war vs USSR over 4000 planes were used here, and they also kept attacking UK (and had more planes in africa and norway)

idimitro #50 Posted 11 April 2011 - 08:16 PM

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There is one other simple reason - France is one of the biggest countries in Europe ==> more potential players players ==> more $$$. Also the French are, lets say, more patriotic than the rest countries ==> less likely to play with the tanks from other nations. Ta daa  :rolleyes:

Hammerbolt #51 Posted 11 April 2011 - 08:20 PM

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View PostWaroch, on 11 April 2011 - 07:28 PM, said:

Was the Luftwaffe really that bigger in numbers?

It's not the numbers, it's the overall plane quality. The french had only a handfull of modern planes, and their tatics and organization was far inferior to the Luftwaffe.

Frederhik #52 Posted 12 April 2011 - 09:42 AM

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Hourra for France !!!

Good job for French Tech Tree !!



Cartman666 #53 Posted 12 April 2011 - 10:02 AM

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As stated already german tactics at the beginning of the war simply were different than later on.
They simply had no need for slow and heavy tanks as the Panzer I-IV were designed to support mechanized infantry on a fast advance together with air support.
Especially the french tanks were designed as slow moving bunkers with heavy armor and big guns. And as you can see with late war german tanks you can't win with this tactic...
And leave out the prototypes "close to production" of the historical discussion. There were so many wonder weapons "close to production" (anyone know the Horten 229?) but actually producing them takes a lot more than one hand built prototype.
For this game the prototypes may be a good addition to fill all the gaps. But still there are several balancing issues, just look at the US mediums and heavies (T1 / M6 and T20 / T23).
I think they decided to make french tanks before the british simply because the prototypes fit better into the game. All the british things except Comet and Centurion are either badly undergunned or far too slow.

daywear #54 Posted 12 April 2011 - 10:48 AM

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a tank's a tank. if it fast cool if not well it better have armour  :D

yep i'm lookign forward to the British tree but then i'm British... i would.

the french tree coming first not an issue, as i like my Russian tanks.

i'm more concerned about the Japaneses tanks.

i don't think they had much of nay thing medium or heavy.

and if i'm wrong cool it will be a challenge to play them.

the french coming first just give me some thing to look forward to, and some thing different to try.

in the end variety and new toys to try, is what is the true driving force in these games.

new maps, new tanks.. new things to look forward to.

i'm looking forward to trying a proper coded multiply turreted tank. or fireinga fixed gun tank witha trurret on top. in the way they shoudl be used.

one day i even hope they try armored turreted cars, like the damlur and other. in some ways they had the British 6 pounder, anti tank gun before the British tanks did.

all in all, there lots of growth room and so lots for the makers to try. but in the end it will be enjoyable trying them all at some point.

regards.
dayware

Hammerbolt #55 Posted 12 April 2011 - 11:27 AM

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View Postdaywear, on 12 April 2011 - 10:48 AM, said:

i'm more concerned about the Japaneses tanks.

Japanese tanks were total junk. At best, including prototypes, you could get to Tier 5... maybe. The Shermans, M3s and Churchills the US/UK used in the Pacific/India were like Tigers to them. There's just nothing there to work with...

Maybe the devs could work on a "rest of the world" tree. That would include Hungary, Sweden, Japan...

theta0123 #56 Posted 12 April 2011 - 11:45 AM

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View Posthammerbolt, on 12 April 2011 - 11:27 AM, said:

Japanese tanks were total junk. At best, including prototypes, you could get to Tier 5... maybe. The Shermans, M3s and Churchills the US/UK used in the Pacific/India were like Tigers to them. There's just nothing there to work with...

Maybe the devs could work on a "rest of the world" tree. That would include Hungary, Sweden, Japan...
Japanese and italian tanks where the first production tanks who used diesel engines

you gotta give them credit ;)

But i really want to see Hungarian and Swedish tanks.

costi #57 Posted 12 April 2011 - 11:50 AM

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Quote

the germans didnt care for tanks, they put everything in subs and planes (to exaggerate a little), they only needed fast tanks for blitz, stukas could bomb the shit out of any srs tread any way.... (as they did)
Sounds an awful lot like Americans after D-Day. ;) Most powerful AT weapon - a Jeep with a radio :Smile_great:

m938nek #58 Posted 12 April 2011 - 12:44 PM

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The nations will be

Germany, USSR, US, France, UK, Japan

but i wonder why are there not Italian tanks instead of French. Maybe 7th nation? :D



SpaceSoviet #59 Posted 12 April 2011 - 12:54 PM

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I know that some captured italian tanks will be in the french tree as premium tanks.

so there will be some italian armor in the game.

Waroch #60 Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:18 PM

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View Posthammerbolt, on 11 April 2011 - 08:20 PM, said:

It's not the numbers, it's the overall plane quality. The french had only a handfull of modern planes, and their tatics and organization was far inferior to the Luftwaffe.

I know ;)

View Postm938nek, on 12 April 2011 - 12:44 PM, said:

The nations will be

Germany, USSR, US, France, UK, Japan

but i wonder why are there not Italian tanks instead of French. Maybe 7th nation? :D



Italians will be added too, and there will probably be a "rest of Europe" tree.
8 trees in all :Smile_great:




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