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trispect, on 01 February 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

It was a bad idea back then and it is even a worse idea right now.

It's kind of like saying "We don't need no assault rifles, these old matchlocks kill just as fine when they hit and they're much cheaper and easier to make and maintain"
1 modern soldier can take out as much of those old napoleon era soldiers as he is carrying bullets.
1 modern MBT can take out as much of those "simple and easy to build" tanks as much as he has shots in reserve.

It's much cheaper to have a succesful operation with an expensive high-tech army than it is to have a succesful mission with WH40k Imperial Guard tactics.
It is also much cheaper to keep a small elite army in battle, than a massive army of conscripts.

Well, there's also a difference between "cheap" and unexpensive (not sure i'm being clear here )
e.g. assault rifles : do you really need a fancy and expensive Magpul ACR when you have cheaper but efficient alternatives like, say, an AK-108?

CHARM_3, on 01 February 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Merkava's are the only one's who have gone up against a modern anti-tank enemy that is armed with the latest ATGM's, large (500+KG) IED's, etc.

When the Challenger 2 encounters mass Kornet volleys call me.

Waroch, on 01 February 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Just saying that modern competetive tools capable of mounting a believable defense are rather expensive.
Yes, there are upgrades that aren't worth the price. No smart man would question that and expensive doesn't mean good.
However, it's not just the gun you need for your soldiers in order to be effective.
If you don't equip your soldiers with body armor and helmets they're gonna get take massive casualties and if you use "cheap and easy to make" body armor, not only is it going to limit the movement of your soldiers, it's also going to offer inferior protection.
You also need other tools like night vision or your troops will be at severe disadvantage as soon as it gets dark.

I'm not saying you NEED the very latest and greatest killing technology.
I'm merely saying saying that the tools you need in order to mount a believable defense aren't either cheap nor easy to make.

However, the difference nowadays is that you can automate most of the assembly process, meaning you don't need a great number of highly trained assembly workers, which exactly is why high-tech tools became common.
However, the tools for that are still VERY expensive.

Chillin1248, on 02 February 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Any tank is killed by rpg29 even the great ch2 armor was rip though a era block and it front armor. as of early 2011 the Merkava is the only western tank with a defense system and is take out any rpg or missile system.

starknight97, on 06 February 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Actually the RPG-29 that penetrated the Chally 2 fell short and blew up in front of the tank, sending fragments and blast up into the then unprotected belly of the tank. This area is now protected with additional armour fitted to deployed Chally 2s.
Its Dorchester armour is yet to be defeated

Seeing as Maggie and Helmut Kohl both crewed a Cr1 one. Then its more modern, bigger brother is obviously better. and who can argue with Maggie?

Listy, on 07 February 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

Who would want to? one swipe with that handbag would finish anybody.

@Firenze, on 30 July 2010 - 04:59 PM, said:

14 RPGs not 12

And Best Tank?
Challenger 2 Has its armor.
The Leclerc has its speed.
And the T-90 has its 125mm Smoothbore gun.

But Leopard 2 is the best overall.
Germans made the best tanks in WW2 and also today.

saml6131, on 01 February 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

was the first incident an american on attachment? LOL

Personally I believe the Leopard 2A7 is at the moment the best tank, because it carries a punch, is advanced in technology and well protected, but at the same time can still function without electronics and computers, which is a big deal with every country getting cyber task forces ready in their military.

But overal I'd say all modern MBTs are pretty close. Seeing how future wars will probably be about resources and how important maintenance is for keeping a military running, I would pick one of the modern MBTs that is fuel efficient and is build close to where my country is located so there are plenty spare parts laying around. Many exiting new weapon systems eventually had to be put out of use by the armies that were operating them, because the stress of war weared the equipment down and there was nothing to repair it with.

So being Dutch, I was happy with my country using the Leopard 2A6 (Damm you, budget cuts :'( ), but I can see how the T-90 would strategically be the best choice for Russia.

Weapon systems never operate in a vacuum!

The Best Tank in The World


The German Beast Leopard 2

chickenpie65, on 28 August 2010 - 11:09 PM, said:

DM63 can penetrate LEO2A6 turret in 6kms.
That was a condition for the Greek Army to accept th efinal LEO2HELL

killakanz, on 29 August 2010 - 12:23 AM, said:

Yea but when that program started no one was interested for Chalenger.

Leo 2 HELL (hellenic) is the best version (in service) of Leo 2 tanks worldwide.
It has proven that it has the best armor against APSFDT ammo worldwide (exept the batch of M1 with DU armor).
Also it has the best protection against top attack anti tank missiles (result of the Sweedish version of LEO2).

In late 90's Greek army gathered the best tanks in Litochoro tank testing ground to deside which tank will buy.
The participants were:
Leo 2A5
M1A2
Leclerc
Chalenger 2
T-80U
T84 (ucranian T-80).

They had to compit in accuracy ,agillity, damage managment for 20000Km etc.
The winner had to provide 3 turrets for penetration tests in 2nd level of testing.

Results:
T-80U had engine failure and it was not allowed to change engine.
The rest tanks in 20000 km trials were:
Leo 2
M1
Leclerc
Chalanger 2
T-84
In accuracy trials (the contesters should provide a crew of their own and then Greek army would provide a crew with 0 expirience on each tank).
Results
Leo 2
Leclerc
M1
Chalenger
T-84

All participants had to offer at least 50% production on the finall "product" in ELVO.
British changed Chalanger with a new cupolla with M2HB mg and offered 100% but they refused to create a version with the gun of LEO2A6 and a new
engine of 1500HP the germans were about to launch in production.
Greek Army staff refused and they chosed LEO 2 HELL.



The tank uses the gun,engine etc of LEO 2A6 but the armor pack of Stridsvagn 122


Also LEO 2HELL uses a better version of EMES targeting system introdussing for 1st time on LEO2 the wind direction indicator that improves aiming on move
by 40%!!!

too much bullcrap fanboyism here

Quote

And speed
Edited by Nixouf, 29 August 2012 - 03:47 PM.

challanger2 replacement of gun scrapped due to cost of mofifications to turret....

My ex mother-in-law.When she opened her mouth,it was like a 122 mm gun going off,...man i still can hear the blast!