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Video: Explaining Mechanics - Matchmaking


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pijani_baraba #41 Posted 09 December 2013 - 04:49 PM

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View Post5everin, on 09 December 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

No its WG's fault for nerfing arty into the ground...Arty killed td's now it doesn't...lots of TD's.

I could argue you that all that arty players (majority of them) are now playing higher tier td's so they can continue to camp because it's easier to sit in the bush with high powered gun waiting to team to do something for them, rather than drive thin paper mediums, but that will get us in the same spot as this video tried to, ergo, nowhere...

kriuks #42 Posted 09 December 2013 - 04:49 PM

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View Post22cm, on 09 December 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

Lol again.Artillery barrage was done from 10-15 km. From 500 m? Mostly direct hits. :)

aaand we're back again - there should not be an artillery in the game! :)

No_Name_Soldier #43 Posted 09 December 2013 - 04:55 PM

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gj MMPosted Image


Edited by KERR, 09 December 2013 - 04:55 PM.


Anthoniusii #44 Posted 09 December 2013 - 04:57 PM

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I watched the video many times and carefully...
WG makes a nice attempt to avoid explain to us not how a server picks up some tanks but why WG ignores CRUSIAL factors of the gameplay by tanks that are power multiplyers for their teams.
Example: Lets take a random battle of tier 10 tanks that MM equaly creates with SAME number of SPGs , heavy tanks , Tank destroyers and medium tanks.
One team has:
4 IS-7
4 Foch 155
4 artlery pieces
and 4 Chat Bat 25t
The other team has
4 IS-4
4 JGE-100
4 artilery peices and
4 M48A1

UNDER WG's explanation this MM is perfect...
But ignores the fire power of the 1st team. That allows the 1st team to consentrate on few targets per case and iliminate tham in less that few seconds while the other team will strugle to simply stay alive for that long time to shot more than twice.
Just calculate the fire power of the 1st team against the 2nd.....
An other factor that makes MM looks rediculus is not the match weight each tank has but its life points.
To be more precise.
A Chat Bat is a light/scout tank with a powerfull gun that shots 5 shots in 20 secs and needs less than 36 secs to reload on move!!!!!.
M48A1 is a beast of 45 tones that has almost equal "life" with that scout tank...
The result may not look certain of who will come out alive of such a duel but see the following example:
A M48A1 with 80% of its life comes across with a HUGE td that can finish M48 with 2 shots!!!!!! But if the M48A1 survives the 1st shot it has atleast te opportunity to fire once and then try to seek for refuge..Not let's take that M48A1 with its 80% of its life and put it across of a Chat Bat or even worst agains with a T57HEAVY that may also have 80% of their lives.
M48 will shot and damage the opponet but when the opponet will start firing M48 will end up dead because has NO TIME to retreat or return the fire!
Even if M48 manages to shot twice at CHAT BAT the problem remains that CB25t has almost the same life of M48!
So in order M48 to kill a Chat Bat that has 80% of its life needs at least 5 shots that need almost a minute while Chat Bat will kill M48 in 20 secs?
Where is the EQUAL chances FOR ALL players in that game UNDER the MM that WG has just shown us how it works?
Why open turret german tds or scout tanks have same "life" with huge monsters???????
Why autoloaders can load their clips while on move???????

Warzey #45 Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:00 PM

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Game is balanced? Most of you guys would say thats [edited], how can it be balanced when I got 5 tomatoes in team and enemy got 5 unicums, why wouldn't WG just implement skilled MM for randoms, similar to team battle mode. Did you ever stop and think how long would the queue be if WG was to add aditional rules about players skill on top of everything else, it would be freakin insane.
Team battle MM should not be compared to random battle MM, simply because team battle MM doesn't need to deal with buch of rules the same way random MM does. The only thing team battle MM is concerned with is average skill, everything else is premade, every team will have max 7 players with max 42 tier points, in other words team battle MM doesn't make a difference between a team of 7 tier 6 tanks and a team of 5x T8 and 2x T1, as long as those two teams have similar average skill.
Even in moba games like Leage of Legends skilled MM is much easier to implement, the only balancing factor is players skill (basicaly you need two teams which have similar average skill), there are no classes, no tiers, etc., only individual skill.

Edited by Neilloss46, 09 December 2013 - 06:30 PM.
This post has been edited by a member of the Moderation Team, due to inappropriate content. Neilloss46


5everin #46 Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:06 PM

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View Postpijani_baraba, on 09 December 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

I could argue you that all that arty players (majority of them) are now playing higher tier td's so they can continue to camp because it's easier to sit in the bush with high powered gun waiting to team to do something for them, rather than drive thin paper mediums, but that will get us in the same spot as this video tried to, ergo, nowhere...

You have a point in that many people left arty for td's whoever why did they leave? because as i said arty was made ineffective and boring.
As for doing nothing and letting the meds do the work....Ha Apart from a few good med drivers most of them think they are TD's and can often be found hiding behind them.

flyingmanticore #47 Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:11 PM

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I do wonder what other things are taken into account with MM that isn’t being said??


Someone said about using players skill, but that could be highly subjective.  My overall WN7 and Eff don’t reflect my current WN7 and Eff as I am better than my stats say, but it will take time before XVM shows a true reflection of my current skill.  And I am sure that there is an abundance of players in the same situation.

Maybe MM could be using current skill, or a 1-2 week cross section, to help.  But it would still cause players using XVM to see the overall skills, and think they have a noob team.


Also, a friend and I have belief that platooning could trigger MM to bugger us up a bit.  Or just in general MM wants to make sure you don’t do too well.  How is it that on Thursday night me and a friend can play and have a wild time causing havok and mayhem and then Friday night we can’t do squat.  But come Saturday night we are back on form.

And I have to question the logic over this scenario.  I go for a rest and play a round in Leitchtraktor.  I have used it a lot and have over 500 games in it with a 52% win rate.  MM decides it is fair and balanced to put my in that tank with 14 other players who have less than 100 battles overall.  On the other side are 3 Unicrums with more battles in their Tier 1 tanks than I have overall.

Viread #48 Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:13 PM

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Greetings all,

I have a serious problem with matchmaker as it is explained in the video by mr Oreshkin.
Ignoring nationality of tanks I can understand.
Ignoring equipment, modules and concumables is something else.
So is ignoring experience and player skill.
By ignoring these factors I land too much of the time in a losing party, fighting against players who have a better level of experience.
A complaint not only made by me but by more players.
Losing 10 battles in a row is no fun, especially if you can see it coming using promod which gives a reasonable prediction.

With kind regards Viread

TheRealDachfrittierer #49 Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:15 PM

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while watching this video i just had to remember some of the ridiculous MM fails i had to put up with.example? gettung buttraped by no less than ten elc amx in my panther, also there were 4 tier 6 arty per team, pre-patch 8.6, and i was the only non-scout or artillery in the game. for those of you who havent been around that time, tier 6 arty was doing 1250dmg at reloads around 22 secs for everyone exept the russians(1850dmg, reload of around 40 secs or so) and the french(950dmg, much shorter reload, about 15 secs i think).

Cyoor #50 Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:19 PM

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View Postkriuks, on 09 December 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

So give us an idea. Even though WG never listens to it's community...

Ok.. Remember I am just talking about the algorithm now (not the case that matchmaking as it is doesnt take skill, upgrades or anything like that in to account.)
I will also say that since I dont want to spend all day here writing some post that noone will care about, I will make this very simple. (I would ofcourse do a slightly more complicated implementation if I would program the algoritm for real)

Group tanks in to whatever many groups you want, the groups could be LTscouts, another group LTnonscouts, a third group SniperTDs and so on. (The point is that it doesnt have to be only one group per tank class, it can be devided more to make it easy to balance)
But to make the example here easy to understand, we use the tank classes as the tank groups.

You also have one slot for each type and tire in a waiting list.

1.) You put your tank in a que. (first come first served)
2.) Matchmaking system picks the tank from the que and check if there is a tank in the waitinglist in the slot for tankgroup your tank is in. If it isn't, then you would be put in that slot, but if it is, both you and the tank in that slot gets paired together, and gets put in to a new que waiting for a game. This que will be a separate que for each tank group.
3.) The matchmaking looks at the statistics of how many from each tankgroup are starting games, and decides to put a game together based on those statistics. Lets say that the spread of the groups are as follows: 27% Heavies, 27% Mediums, 13% Lights, 20% TDs, 13% Artys. Then the matchmaker will make a template that looks like this:
H H H H M M M M LT LT TD TD TD ARTY ARTY
4.) The matchmaker takes the pair in each grouppool that have been waiting the longest and put the two players in the pair in opposite teams untill the template is filled up.
Now you got your teams. Verry easy. They will always have similar tanks with the same tire on both sides.

So lets say that there is some poor guy trying to play something that noone wants to play, and has to wait for a while?
Well an easy solution to that would be to temporarily merge his tankgroup with the most similar group so that he could get paired that way.

Also if the whole que gets slow (not only one person), then you spread the tires you pick from the pools to be from 2 tires, then after even longer time you spread them to be 3 tires.

Platoons would have to be handled separatly, but what you basically would have to do is to pair the platoons up with 3 other tanks instead of one other tank.

The result:
Teams would in most cases (when the ques arnt super bad) have similar teams on both sides since everyone gets paired against someone similar. The tires would be spread less when not needed so everyone could contribute more.

Also, this algorithm would never fail and have to go back to make a new group.
Algorithms that can fail and need to try again are bad.

Cyoor #51 Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:31 PM

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View Post22cm, on 09 December 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

Lol. There was I guy who checked it, ~10% from ~100 battles was top tier:
"Hey fellow tankers i have bin playing abit over 2k matches now for the last 10 days i bin keeping tracks on tier tanks i meet and the out coming of the battles in 112 battles i was at top tier in 13 matches"

Well he didnt play over 2000 battles in 10 days.
Takes on average around 1 min to get in to a game, 30 second countdown, ~30 seconds to get out of the game and chose a new tank. Thats 2 min.
If he played 2000 battles that means that his battles were on average around 2.5 min and he played without break for 16 hours a day 10 days in a row.

5everin #52 Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:45 PM

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Quote

...
Also, a friend and I have belief that platooning could trigger MM to bugger us up a bit.  Or just in general MM wants to make sure you don’t do too well.  How is it that on Thursday night me and a friend can play and have a wild time causing havok and mayhem and then Friday night we can’t do squat.  But come Saturday night we are back on form.

And I have to question the logic over this scenario.  I go for a rest and play a round in Leitchtraktor.  I have used it a lot and have over 500 games in it with a 52% win rate.  MM decides it is fair and balanced to put my in that tank with 14 other players who have less than 100 battles overall.  On the other side are 3 Unicrums with more battles in their Tier 1 tanks than I have overall.

It's just the opposite i think...The mm will still try and troll you if you are doing well but having at least one team mate you can rely on will mitigate some of the trolling.

turel2 #53 Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:28 PM

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WG has to take player skill into consideration. Also the tier 4 scouts are not needed in tier 8 matches any more.

mmaci #54 Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:44 PM

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If you give them money mm will be good for you. :angry:

wolfmenseyes #55 Posted 09 December 2013 - 07:02 PM

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View PostEctar, on 09 December 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Well it's not regularly as it's 1 of 3 out of the possible matches you can get (if you're a Medium, TD, Arty or Heavy). You can basically end up in one of 3 different battles:

Battle tier 5 game with tier 3, tier 4 and tier 5
Battle tier 6 game with tier 4, tier 5 and tier 6
Battle tier 7 game with tier 5, tier 6 and tier 7

The matches won't always have an equal spread. So you could have all tier V for example  (that could be any battle tier but most likely battle tier 6).  Basically you have a one in 3 chance of being matched against tier VII tanks (but that's not a guaranteed average so don't expect to do 30 matches and only ever have 10 matches against tier VII. There is no internal system that makes sure you rotate through your battle tiers equally).

Indeed.

I liked the video thanks.

Now that you kindly explain it better i kind of wonder if tier 5 tanks would get lighter match spread in future as when not many players are logged in tier 5 always goes for the tier 7 match making and theirs always plenty of tier 5 vehicles the problem is that the match maker does it so quick that you end up in tier 7.

Hey i hope that the match maker allows user to wait longer for better MM that way the people who can wait get better match making impatient just go for regular MM.

wolfmenseyes #56 Posted 09 December 2013 - 07:05 PM

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View Postkfa, on 09 December 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Is your avatar a real life photo of you?

Dam that was a good insult you upset me  :sad: .

I'm not the best looking but im really not like sloth from the goonies  :sad: .

Sorry for double post did not mean sorry.

varangr #57 Posted 09 December 2013 - 07:08 PM

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most of what was said in the video is a lie or doesnt work on real (like communism, theory is good but it just doesnt work).
for example, tiers and types are not equal, the games are very predictable, in the first 30 seconds or sooner you can see that you will loose because of the massive stupidity of 90% of the players (i dont use mods to show me win chance).
WG will keep denying that MM is in fact broken, and that their penetration mechanics are bugged as well.
they will keep lying and send us of with a nonsense explanation, or an automatic message.
if these things are not fixed soon, WOT will fall out of favour with al real players (those who can think), and thus lose all its fans and popularity. the ones remaining are the noobs, and idiots (those who cannot think) to be cash cows for WOT, since most of them are little kids who steal their parents credit card and waste a lot of money on this game.
the worst part is that WG does not care, because even though they loose their real players and fans who invest in the game, their cash cows bring in much more money, and i the end WG will fall to their own greed.
this is already starting to happen, and if WG doesnt act, my predictions will become real in about 6 months.

22cm #58 Posted 09 December 2013 - 07:09 PM

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View Postwolfmenseyes, on 09 December 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

Dam that was a good insult you upset me.

I'm not the best looking but im really not like sloth from the goonies   .
Maybe he just looked at your signature.  :trollface:

laserad #59 Posted 09 December 2013 - 07:29 PM

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moar unpredictability

BoskoSLO #60 Posted 09 December 2013 - 07:42 PM

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And the video 100% explains why the MM is broken from the release of World of tanks.




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