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Is There Hope?


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Zarax999 #21 Posted 19 December 2013 - 11:23 AM

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What I'm saying is that the historical Luchs turret should be open top and thus give MUCH better view range, just like the M5 one.

filefool #22 Posted 19 December 2013 - 11:54 AM

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Scouts have a lot of problems lately.

 

- Maps like Mines that are so small that every tank above tier 7 can see across the whole map, make scouting pointless.

- Mediums with a solid camo value and great viewrange are of much more value to the team than a dedicated scout. They can dish out damage on their own, are just as fast and the camo values don't differ that much (compare Leo PTA and Aufklärungspanther).

- Maps with 2 or 3 choke points, without the possibility of flanking around unless you want to travel through an open field without any cover.

- Vulnerability of low tier scouts. Luchs and VK 16.02 are still fun to play, but their low module HP makes sure that every single shot that hits you, takes out at least two modules. If you get hit by a high caliber gun it's pretty common to have both your tracks AND your engine taken out, at which point you can only type "gg" while awaiting the final shot.


Edited by filefool, 19 December 2013 - 03:15 PM.


Fantabulousness #23 Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:36 PM

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View Postfilefool, on 19 December 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

- Mediums with a solid camo value and great viewrange are of much more value to the team than a dedicated scout. They can dish out damage on their own, are just as fast and the camo values don't differ that much (compare Leo PTA and Aufklärungspanther).

Please, if you are trying to make a point, don't compare the worst light tanks to one of the most maneuverable medium tanks. T-54 is a better heavy tank than VK4502B. IS-8 is a better medium tank than the E-50. FV183 is a better arty than BC155. Does that mean the other class is useless? Hell no, it does not. It's just a silly comparison to make things look much worse than they are. That's not how you make a point, it's how you make a fool out of yourself.



filefool #24 Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:53 PM

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View PostFantabulousness, on 19 December 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Please, if you are trying to make a point, don't compare the worst light tanks to one of the most maneuverable medium tanks. T-54 is a better heavy tank than VK4502B. IS-8 is a better medium tank than the E-50. FV183 is a better arty than BC155. Does that mean the other class is useless? Hell no, it does not. It's just a silly comparison to make things look much worse than they are. That's not how you make a point, it's how you make a fool out of yourself.

 

I won't comment on the level of smartassery of your post.

Instead i will try to explain what point i was trying to make. You can pick every dedicated scout in this game and i will show you a medium (within the same tierspread) that can do it's job better. I just tried to illustrate this gap by taking the worst example of WGs "scout" tank that the game has to offer.

No offense taken mate.



Fantabulousness #25 Posted 19 December 2013 - 04:34 PM

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View Postfilefool, on 19 December 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

 

I won't comment on the level of smartassery of your post.

Instead i will try to explain what point i was trying to make. You can pick every dedicated scout in this game and i will show you a medium (within the same tierspread) that can do it's job better. I just tried to illustrate this gap by taking the worst example of WGs "scout" tank that the game has to offer.

No offense taken mate.

T71. WZ-131.



filefool #26 Posted 19 December 2013 - 04:45 PM

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View PostFantabulousness, on 19 December 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

T71. WZ-131.

 

Since those two are getting mostly into T9 and T10 battles, i prefer a well driven Lorraine or M46 Patton in my team over those two any day. A HP pool that doesn't get them oneshotted by every TD they meet, better viewrange (the WZ has 380m and gets into T10 battles!) and penetration values that ensure that they can put the hurt to the enemy while scouting them.

 

The times when small undetectable scouts were a menace to your team are long over. You need A LOT of skill and even more luck to make a scout count on the battlefield which makes the class unattractive to most players. And don't get me wrong i love playing scouts (which you can see on my profile) and i still do. But the fact that it's the most frustrating class to play is something WG will have to correct sometime. Especially when it comes to vehicles like the Chaffee, which were once a force to be reckoned with and are now free XP on tracks for everyone with a decent aimtime.


Edited by filefool, 19 December 2013 - 04:52 PM.


Fantabulousness #27 Posted 19 December 2013 - 04:48 PM

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View Postfilefool, on 19 December 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

 

Since those two are getting mostly into T9 and T10 battles, i prefer a well driven Lorraine or M36 Patton in my team over those two any day. A HP pool that doesn't get them oneshotted by every TD they meet, better viewrange (the WZ has 380m and gets into T10 battles!) and penetration values that ensure that they can put the hurt to the enemy while scouting them.

 

The times when small undetectable scouts were a menace to your team are long over. You need A LOT of skill and even more luck to make a scout count on the battlefield.  And don't get me wrong i love playing scouts and i still do. But the fact that it's the most frustrating class to play is something WG will have to correect sometime.

Lorraine or Patton... are you serious? A T-54 is the only thing that comes close, but it's still way bigger, slower and has no camo advantage. You have no clue how to play LTs. 'Nuff said.


Edited by Fantabulousness, 19 December 2013 - 04:52 PM.


filefool #28 Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:18 PM

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View PostFantabulousness, on 19 December 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

Lorraine or Patton... are you serious? A T-54 is the only thing that comes close, but it's still way bigger, slower and has no camo advantage. You have no clue how to play LTs. 'Nuff said.


'Nuff said? Really? That's one hell of an argument.

The camo advantage only works when moving since there are a lot of mediums who have the same camo value as high tier light tanks. And with the increased accuracy, active scouting became a lot more dangerous than it used to be.The M46 has almost the same camo value as the Chaffee and the T71 while having a better viewrange, the The T-34-2 has an even better camo value than the WZ-131. And speed alone isn't what makes a scout good, otherwise the PZ IC would be overpowered as hell.

It's all about survivability and just because some people excel with light tanks doesn't mean they aren't broken. Hell Tazilon can even make the VK 28.01 work although that vehicle has been nerfed to hell and back.

I respect your opinion but your attitude makes me think you're one of those elitist unicums (or soon to be unicums as you're obviously on a smurf account) that bashes every discussion about underpowered tanks with the "learn to play" argument.

 

Oh and even though i am nowhere near unicum efficiency, i think my stats with light tanks are decent enough to give my arguments at least some weight.


Edited by filefool, 19 December 2013 - 06:19 PM.


Fantabulousness #29 Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:30 PM

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View Postfilefool, on 19 December 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:


'Nuff said? Really? That's one hell of an argument.

The camo advantage only works when moving since there are a lot of mediums who have the same camo value as high tier light tanks. And with the increased accuracy, active scouting became a lot more dangerous than it used to be.The M46 has almost the same camo value as the Chaffee and the T71 while having a better viewrange, the The T-34-2 has an even better camo value than the WZ-131. And speed alone isn't what makes a scout good, otherwise the PZ IC would be overpowered as hell.

It's all about survivability and just because some people excel with light tanks doesn't mean they aren't broken. Hell Tazilon can even make the VK 28.01 work although that vehicle has been nerfed to hell and back.

I respect your opinion but your attitude makes me think you're one of those elitist unicums (or soon to be unicums as you're obviously on a smurf account) that bashes every discussion about underpowered tanks with the "learn to play" argument.

 

Oh and even though i am nowhere near unicum efficiency, i think my stats with light tanks are decent enough to give my arguments at least some weight.

The stationary camo of T71 and WZ-131 is more than 50% better (can't be bothered to look up the exact values now, really) than of Lorry and M46. Camo advantage on the move and wayyyyyyyy better speed are crucial, even for passive spotting, because many spots are not reachable without.

 

E:

"(or soon to be unicums as you're obviously on a smurf account)"

I have ~68% wins and ~2k WN7.


Edited by Fantabulousness, 19 December 2013 - 06:32 PM.


filefool #30 Posted 19 December 2013 - 07:25 PM

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View PostFantabulousness, on 19 December 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

The stationary camo of T71 and WZ-131 is more than 50% better (can't be bothered to look up the exact values now, really) than of Lorry and M46.

 

Not according to this:

http://ftr.wot-news....view/#more-6536

or this:

http://www.wotinfo.net/en/camouflage

 

I don't know where you get your values from, but even if you had 40000+ battles under your belt you'll have to forgive me if i don't take your word for it.

 

View PostFantabulousness, on 19 December 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Camo advantage on the move and wayyyyyyyy better speed are crucial, even for passive spotting, because many spots are not reachable without.

 

The Lorraine is only 4 km/h slower than the T71 and just as fast as the WZ-131. If we would swap the Lorraine with BC-25t in T10 games the difference in speed becomes even more negligible while the difference in firepower and hitpoints gets even bigger. The M46 is not that fast but i wouldn't call 50 km/h slow either.

 

And congrats on your Winrate and efficiency. I bet you and your clanmates worked hard for it. Maybe mine would be better if i wouldn't tank solo 90% of the time.



dr_Hannibalus #31 Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:25 PM

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View PostFantabulousness, on 19 December 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

T-54 is a better heavy tank than VK4502B. IS-8 is a better medium tank than the E-50.

I beg to differ.

T-54 is better than VK 4502B only in hulldown, or at very, very close distance. Mind you VK is one of the worst Tier IX heavy.
Most of encounters i had in E 50 against IS-8 ended well for E 50 and bad for IS. And I'm sure I didn't played e 50 very well, as I consider myself medicore player. But saying IS-8 is better medium than E 50 is just wrong...
Nowdays I drive E50M and VK can still be a butthurt because of good frontal protection, while T-54 is just torn to shreds by gunning and ramming.


On the other hand it's funny when I can keep pace with most of lights I met while driving a 70 ton "medium" tank. Not to metion in most medius killing a scout is very, very simple.
 



Fantabulousness #32 Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:47 PM

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View Postfilefool, on 19 December 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

 

Not according to this:

http://ftr.wot-news....view/#more-6536

or this:

http://www.wotinfo.net/en/camouflage

 

I don't know where you get your values from, but even if you had 40000+ battles under your belt you'll have to forgive me if i don't take your word for it.

 

 

The Lorraine is only 4 km/h slower than the T71 and just as fast as the WZ-131. If we would swap the Lorraine with BC-25t in T10 games the difference in speed becomes even more negligible while the difference in firepower and hitpoints gets even bigger. The M46 is not that fast but i wouldn't call 50 km/h slow either.

 

And congrats on your Winrate and efficiency. I bet you and your clanmates worked hard for it. Maybe mine would be better if i wouldn't tank solo 90% of the time.

Sorry, I was still going by old values. Still, WZ-132 and T71 have (significantly) better camo and are much smaller, too.

 

Lorraine's acceleration is poor and it's huge. It will also lose way more speed in turns and the traverse speed is lower.

 

About my stats:

I average ~65% solo at tier 8/9 and ratings are much easier to get without platoonmates stealing your damage.

 

View Postdr_Hannibalus, on 19 December 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

I beg to differ.

T-54 is better than VK 4502B only in hulldown, or at very, very close distance. Mind you VK is one of the worst Tier IX heavy.
Most of encounters i had in E 50 against IS-8 ended well for E 50 and bad for IS. And I'm sure I didn't played e 50 very well, as I consider myself medicore player. But saying IS-8 is better medium than E 50 is just wrong...
Nowdays I drive E50M and VK can still be a butthurt because of good frontal protection, while T-54 is just torn to shreds by gunning and ramming.


On the other hand it's funny when I can keep pace with most of lights I met while driving a 70 ton "medium" tank. Not to metion in most medius killing a scout is very, very simple.
 

E-50 wins, because it's a better HT than IS-8.



filefool #33 Posted 19 December 2013 - 11:55 PM

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I'm sorry you lost me there. This has gone from a lively discussion to trying to talk to a brick wall. Calling a 10% difference in camo (M46 and T71) significantly and saying that platooning actually hurts your winrate is so far from the truth that i have no idea what to say anymore. You're twisting arguments to justify your point of view. No point in arguing anymore.

 

Bottom line of my opinion: The small advantages dedicated scouts offer don't outweigh their disadvantages, in comparison to medium tanks. You're entitled to disagree to whichever degree you like.



Fantabulousness #34 Posted 20 December 2013 - 01:01 AM

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View Postfilefool, on 19 December 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

I'm sorry you lost me there. This has gone from a lively discussion to trying to talk to a brick wall. Calling a 10% difference in camo (M46 and T71) significantly and saying that platooning actually hurts your winrate is so far from the truth that i have no idea what to say anymore. You're twisting arguments to justify your point of view. No point in arguing anymore.

 

Bottom line of my opinion: The small advantages dedicated scouts offer don't outweigh their disadvantages, in comparison to medium tanks. You're entitled to disagree to whichever degree you like.

I said RATINGS, not WIN RATE. RATINGS = WN8, efficiency, WN7, WN6

 

M46 Patton is twice as big, has pathetic camo on the move and 10% more camo is in fact quite significant, if you combine it with the size.

 

You're also forgetting that a scout takes a tier 7 spot, not tier 9, so they have way less weight to carry.


Edited by Fantabulousness, 20 December 2013 - 01:01 AM.


distrofijus #35 Posted 20 December 2013 - 08:21 AM

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While mediums can cover for scouts, that means they have to do a quick glance/spot and hide again. They can scout, however that basicly means team has one gun less. Yes, you can hammer nails with microscope, but there better ways to use it.

 

Scouts shouldn't be carrying the game (with firepower). They are carrying games by other means. Yeah, there's a game once in a while where scout does a lot of damage. But that's not to praise the scout, that's harsh words for crappy team.



Askorti #36 Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:56 AM

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The problem is that mediums can scout just as well as light tanks while still retaining firepower and some armor. T-54 is a great example, it's as fast as a light tank, has just as good camo, but has great firepower and next to invincible turret while being not much bigger than light tanks.

Whenever I see that there is a bunch of T-54s in enemy team, I pretty much give up on scouting in a light tank because they will "out-spot" me with ease and kill me effortlessly.



dr_Hannibalus #37 Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:09 PM

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View PostFantabulousness, on 19 December 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

E-50 wins, because it's a better HT than IS-8.

I like your logic ;)
But I think you are actually right.
 

View Postdistrofijus, on 20 December 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

While mediums can cover for scouts, that means they have to do a quick glance/spot and hide again. They can scout, however that basicly means team has one gun less. Yes, you can hammer nails with microscope, but there better ways to use it.

 

Scouts shouldn't be carrying the game (with firepower). They are carrying games by other means. Yeah, there's a game once in a while where scout does a lot of damage. But that's not to praise the scout, that's harsh words for crappy team.


While scouting medium means a less fire power for the team, medium can do a lot more than just scouting. Snipe, brawl... Mediums are usually flexible tanks, and can do good in many roles . Scouts on the other hand are limited mostly for only one purpose: scouting.
I agree that scouts should not carry teams in terms of damage delivered, but right now in most cases there is noone to scout for. A year ago scouts and arty were working nicely together, and scouts didn't have to do damage at all to carry a team towards victory. Right now I'm often forced to open fire on enemies, because there is nobody covering me. Most of team's firepower concentrate in 2-3 choke points and as a scout you're alone.  That's just wrong in my opinion.

This days the best german passive scout is E 25.

 



Zarax999 #38 Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:22 PM

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E-25 you say? http://ftr.wot-news....aerer-auf-e-25/

distrofijus #39 Posted 20 December 2013 - 01:03 PM

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View Postdr_Hannibalus, on 20 December 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

I like your logic ;)
But I think you are actually right.
 


While scouting medium means a less fire power for the team, medium can do a lot more than just scouting. Snipe, brawl... Mediums are usually flexible tanks, and can do good in many roles . Scouts on the other hand are limited mostly for only one purpose: scouting.
I agree that scouts should not carry teams in terms of damage delivered, but right now in most cases there is noone to scout for. A year ago scouts and arty were working nicely together, and scouts didn't have to do damage at all to carry a team towards victory. Right now I'm often forced to open fire on enemies, because there is nobody covering me. Most of team's firepower concentrate in 2-3 choke points and as a scout you're alone.  That's just wrong in my opinion.

This days the best german passive scout is E 25.

 

I'm yet to see a higher tier match where light tanks are on one side. Both sides have some (or none).  So if one team has experienced scout, another is stuck newbie, the team with inexperienced scout is already one gun down, since someone else have to take over and do some scouting.

 

Yes, there are a lot of maps with little options for LTs. I tend to push around heavies TDs into position after the start. And then you either can wait in the backround or try sniping a bit (preferably tracking) from safer position to help my team.

 

Are you suggesting that in the teams with both LTs and MTs, MTs should scout?

 



Longtomsilver #40 Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:11 PM

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View Postdistrofijus, on 20 December 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

 

Yes, there are a lot of maps with little options for LTs. I tend to push around heavies TDs into position after the start. And then you either can wait in the backround or try sniping a bit (preferably tracking) from safer position to help my team.

 

 

 

Be careful, last time i pushed a JgPzE100 he turned around and killed me with one shot, he raged afterwards about "bad scout", "go scout moron" and such things to justify his teamkill. (the map was Himmelsdorf)






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