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1,000 Battle 8.9 Matchmaking Study


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Tazilon #1 Posted 22 December 2013 - 08:03 PM

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TIER VI SCOUT MATCHMAKING

 

I periodically record 1,000 battles in my VK 28.01 to see how Matchmaking is treating us.  I just finished a test for 8.9.  I record what the starting rank is for each battle and what the top Tier of the highest ranked tank is.  For this test, I also recorded how many Tier X tanks I faced.  (I also record what medals I earned beginning with the 8.4 test)  I play pretty much anytime of the day except about 4AM to 8AM, on every day of the week so the battles were spread over a wide range of times and 7 days a week (the benefits of being a mostly retired person with lots of playing time). Here are the results:

 

 

 

Overall, the important comparison is 8.3 and 8.9; that is, pre-nerf to the current post-nerf.  The results are both depressing and maddening.  Remember when the big nerf bat hit with 8.4, we were told the huge nerfs to 28.01 performance were compensated by reducing our MM and the fact we would see easier battles.  When the T-50-2 was eliminated, the replacement MT-25 was introduced with 28.01 nerf type performance included. So, several updates after the nerf, how is the promise of better MM in exchange for greatly diminished performance holding up?

 

In 8.3 battles, we were ranked 11th-15th 73.3% of the time and 15th 25.5% of the time.  In 8.9, those numbers have degraded to 11th-15th 88.9% of the time and 15th 58.8% of the time.   Yes, over 1,000 battles, I was ranked dead last a whopping 588 times!  In 8.3 our average starting position was 12.095.  Now, it is a Scout enthusiasm killing 13.768.  

 

While in 8.3 I got ranked in the top 5 starting positions a meager 20 (2.0%) times out of 1,000, things did improve in 8.4, rising to a respectable 96 (9.6%) times.  Such top starting positions are now basically a dream, falling to a nearly non-existent 1 time (0.1%) out of 1,000.   

 

When one looks at 8.4 data, one sees, initially we DID see an improvement in our starting rank.  However subsequent changes in the game have more than offset those gains to the point we are now getting starting positions way WORSE than before the mega-nerf.

 

The problem isn't just the plunge in starting position.  If we got lower starting positions but, overall, faced weaker tanks than before, one could argue everything was working as intended. Unfortunately, that isn't the case.  

 

When one looks at the Tier of the top Tank in the battles, one quickly discovers we are now facing Tier 10 tanks almost as frequently as we did pre-nerf.  In 8.3 we saw Tier X tanks in 22.0% of our battles.  with an average Top Tier of 8.372.  After 8.4, those numbers improved to seeing Tier X tanks in only 12.8% of our battles and an average starting Top Tier of 8.083.   In 8.9 we have regressed to Tier X tanks in 18.1% of our battles and an average Top Tier of 8.315.  The reduction in severity of tanks faced is almost completely gone.  

 

Worse, when you look at how often we face Tier 8-10 tanks we have lost ground.  In 8.3 we faced Tier 8-10 tanks in 72.5% of our battles.  In 8.9 we face Tier 8-10 tanks 74.5% of the time.  So, not only has our starting position gotten worse, we are also seeing more battles with tier 8-10 tanks.

 

I began counting the number Tier X tanks we faced beginning with this iteration of the study.  Over 1,000 battles, and 181 battles facing Tier X tanks, I faced a total of 834 Tier X tanks.  Now, I can only use anecdotal evidence for 8.3, but I doubt anyone can remember seeing anywhere close to that number of Tier X tanks long ago.  While we faced slightly more Tier X battles, we did not come close to facing an average of 4.61 Tier X per battle in which we had Tier Xs.  

 

Despite assurances our nerfs would be offset by better MM and despite continued nerfs to Scouts and changes to the game which have further handicapped Scouts, we are now seeing WORSE overall MM than we had before the nerfs began in 8.4.

 

While Wargaming recently offered a glimmer of hope, stating they know they need to address the many issues with Scouting, they also said no changes would be coming soon.  Wargaming, you have taken the most challenging tanks to play in the game and made them even more challenging to play.  Tier VI scouts, in particular, have gotten an extremely raw deal over the last year.  Hopefully, you take a second look at the issue, tweak your schedule, and make Scouting fixes sooner rather than later.

 



Lancasthor #2 Posted 22 December 2013 - 09:42 PM

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I truly appreciate the studies of Cougar-Ace Taz, but this time i have to disagree with the black clouds he is painting.

Demmanding a buff while pulling out constant near 1000xp rounds has a little strange tone in it.

 

After listening the cries of scouting downfall i were expecting a role of a blind punchbag like the Aufk. Panther is "known" to be.

So, i had to blow off the dust from my VK28 and put it back to service with a capable crew. Made a mistake there?

 

No.

On average, i have been capable of carrying the team, supporting and gaining top xp just like as pre-HEAT 2801 year ago. Some things manage to truly annoy, like roll-a-dice -accuracy of 10.5 and extreme-camo soviet MT:s and certain TD:s

...but still, driving a VK with capable crew and some map knowledge is still enjoyable as it used to be.

 

My approach on scout role improvement and balance could be done with dynamic information relaying instead of hivemind spotting mechanics, not with a plain make it: faster/stealtier/deadlier -way. Scouting work has very little to do with the tiers it has to face. All tier VII ++ targets are supposed to be deadly, and engaged only with help or other advantage. The real difference shows up only in the spotting XP of bigger hp-pools.

 

In my opinion, fun of tier VI scouts is not extinct. Strong scout is still a key player in the team.

Right now, performing with a challenging tank like VK28 is equally fun and rewarding.

Cant find myself demmanding the return of HEAT -gold age while scouts still do top buck in the team.

 

Anyway, good work with the statistics. Just dont let them ruin your roll.



Tazilon #3 Posted 22 December 2013 - 11:48 PM

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View PostLancasthor, on 22 December 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

I truly appreciate the studies of Cougar-Ace Taz, but this time i have to disagree with the black clouds he is painting.

Demmanding a buff while pulling out constant near 1000xp rounds has a little strange tone in it.

 

After listening the cries of scouting downfall i were expecting a role of a blind punchbag like the Aufk. Panther is "known" to be.

So, i had to blow off the dust from my VK28 and put it back to service with a capable crew. Made a mistake there?

 

No.

On average, i have been capable of carrying the team, supporting and gaining top xp just like as pre-HEAT 2801 year ago. Some things manage to truly annoy, like roll-a-dice -accuracy of 10.5 and extreme-camo soviet MT:s and certain TD:s

...but still, driving a VK with capable crew and some map knowledge is still enjoyable as it used to be.

 

My approach on scout role improvement and balance could be done with dynamic information relaying instead of hivemind spotting mechanics, not with a plain make it: faster/stealtier/deadlier -way. Scouting work has very little to do with the tiers it has to face. All tier VII ++ targets are supposed to be deadly, and engaged only with help or other advantage. The real difference shows up only in the spotting XP of bigger hp-pools.

 

In my opinion, fun of tier VI scouts is not extinct. Strong scout is still a key player in the team.

Right now, performing with a challenging tank like VK28 is equally fun and rewarding.

Cant find myself demmanding the return of HEAT -gold age while scouts still do top buck in the team.

 

Anyway, good work with the statistics. Just dont let them ruin your roll.

 

 

1) I am not painting anything - I am simply documenting what our current MM is giving us.   

 

2)  Wargaming has already acknowledged they screwed Scouts up and are going to redo them at some point in the future.

 

3) I "demanded" nothing.  Saying " Hopefully, you take a second look at the issue, tweak your schedule, and make Scouting fixes sooner rather than later." in nothing close to a demand.

 

4) In August 2013, you were saying this about the 28.01 nerfs:  "Luckily for us "less favored" vehicle users, every upcoming patch gives hope for a little deserved buff. There is no way WG would bash german scout line even more for "historical accuracy" while putting them constantly against some cold war / NATO -equipment."  Sounds like an abrupt change of mind on your part in your above post.

 

5)  I do not believe for a second you carry teams as you did before, unless you rarely carried teams.  The tank does not have the same performance as it did but it faces more tougher tanks than it did in the past.  In the past you could take a bad team and win for it.  You can not do that anymore unless the enemy team is absolutely horrid.

 

The entire point of the original post was to say WG told us they were nerfing Tier V Scout (And making them Tier VI) because they would be facing weaker opponents overall.  We are no longer seeing those weaker opponents; in fact, our opponents are now STRONGER than before the nerf.
 

 



Lancasthor #4 Posted 23 December 2013 - 12:46 PM

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Okay' okay.. you are right.

 

Having a week long streak of good battles does not change the fact that scouting is still difficult sport for many. Specially for a player without a good crew increasing survivability. For statistical accuracy we should cut out opinions of fresh vanilla rookies and ourselves to really find out what kind of struggle an average player is having. We would both probably have serious trouble handling a 75% crewed vehicle on these ill MM battles too.

 

As for the quote, i were referring more to the Aufk Panther and its lack of ability to have any role on field. Just recently got back in to VK28 side.

Something just tells me that i dont need any extra help with MM right now ,, Enjoying my rounds as long as they la.....* uh oh .. patch hour.. * ..st.

 

I'll be back raging again when the downswing starts. Until then, i manage to feel important, no matter what MM throws at me.



nA_ #5 Posted 23 December 2013 - 08:48 PM

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Gave up on this scout a while back, after three hundred not so decent rounds.

 

Feel it even doesn't have much to contribute with at same tier fights, but of course perhaps that's just because I was using it incorrect there too.

 

May I say a survival rate of 27% is not fun enough for me, compared to pz.38 nA with 36-39%.

 

It's more than this that made VK 28.01 came in disfavor, can't put my finger on it without more time to evaluate.



Tazilon #6 Posted 24 December 2013 - 04:58 AM

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View PostnA_, on 23 December 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

Gave up on this scout a while back, after three hundred not so decent rounds.

 

Feel it even doesn't have much to contribute with at same tier fights, but of course perhaps that's just because I was using it incorrect there too.

 

May I say a survival rate of 27% is not fun enough for me, compared to pz.38 nA with 36-39%.

 

It's more than this that made VK 28.01 came in disfavor, can't put my finger on it without more time to evaluate.

 

 

If people driving Tier VI Scouts got same tier matches as often as did the 38nA, they would probably like them a lot more...lol

 

And Lancasthor, we aren't really good people to look at in terms of whether tier VI Scouts got screwed over since 8.4  We both have thousands of battles in the 28.01.  Most players will never get close to that many battles in a Tier VI Scout.  If is they who suffer the consequences of the increasingly difficult MM.  You probably feel somewhat the same as me when I say, Wargaming can nerf the 28.01 all they want, but they can't nerf me.  We know how to compensate for the lesser performance and still make the tank viable.  The vast majority do not have the experience required to do that.



Temptis #7 Posted 24 December 2013 - 03:23 PM

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so you inspired me to take him out for a ride again..

http://wotreplays.co...temptis-vk_2801

replay title says all imho.



IronSpear #8 Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:45 AM

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I do not have any opinion on the MM topic here just want to say that if anyone is playing a VK28.01 for thousand games has to be a masochist :)

 

Chaffe OK I see some point of it although they are rare

ELC AMX great fun tank

AMX 12t great passive spotter assassin.

T71 Great fun active scouting can also spot from a bush

AMX 13 75 as well more passive spotter then active but it is good

T62 fun as well and makes cash

 

But VK28?

 

I bought it because of the event but Jesus that thing is useless.

I like playing light tanks but the VK has nothing really to offer except pain and suffering.

 

 

 



Zarax999 #9 Posted 02 January 2014 - 01:29 PM

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One possibility would be to bring the chassis to its heavy variant, slightly larger chassis with 33-34 tons but sporting the HL 230 as top engine, giving it around 20HP/ton...

Tazilon #10 Posted 02 January 2014 - 04:02 PM

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View PostIronSpear, on 02 January 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

I do not have any opinion on the MM topic here just want to say that if anyone is playing a VK28.01 for thousand games has to be a masochist :)

 

Chaffe OK I see some point of it although they are rare

ELC AMX great fun tank

AMX 12t great passive spotter assassin.

T71 Great fun active scouting can also spot from a bush

AMX 13 75 as well more passive spotter then active but it is good

T62 fun as well and makes cash

 

But VK28?

 

I bought it because of the event but Jesus that thing is useless.

I like playing light tanks but the VK has nothing really to offer except pain and suffering.

 

 

 

 

30,965 Battles in my VK 28.01

36,596 Kills

 

I'm not masochistic, I'm sadistic!  :smile:


Edited by Tazilon, 02 January 2014 - 04:02 PM.


PRO_MEMBER #11 Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:50 AM

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I sold VK2801 when it was lifted a tier. Unplayable. I played a few games (130 or so) with Afk Panther. While its a good looking tank and 1 ram-killing other scouts is fun, it feels too underpowered. Did not played it after last alpha nerf. It should get 400m view range (or even better), same rof as 7,5 L/48 and 0.32 (or better) accuracy, 1,7s aim time (like L/48 has) and a bit better camo. Also price of premium round should be halfed. Its too freaking high for 135 damage. 

 

All those are stats that can be utilized by a good players, bad players will still suck with it. 

 

Anything else than a tier 8 scout is just crap. Maybe WZ-131 is an exception. 


Edited by arbenowskee, 07 January 2014 - 09:51 AM.


Tazilon #12 Posted 08 January 2014 - 07:08 AM

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View Postpuffybodie, on 07 January 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

Masochism is playing A-20 :-) Re-bought it just because I like scouts and have 14 of them in garage now (collecting, playing, whatever). There's not even enough "guides" for this tank. Ace tanker had pretty low requirement. Trying it now with 76mm L11, but still mostly in tier 8 battles (fit to your findings) where even with HE it's problematic to do some damage.

 

Aren't you enough "tired" of VK 28.01 to try some challenge with A-20 for hall of fame entry? :D

 

PS: MT-25 gun selection is funny too, gold ammo with dmg 85........

 

 

A-20 isn't close to being a scout; it's simply a Light.



Tazilon #13 Posted 08 January 2014 - 07:11 AM

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View Postarbenowskee, on 07 January 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

I sold VK2801 when it was lifted a tier. Unplayable. I played a few games (130 or so) with Afk Panther. While its a good looking tank and 1 ram-killing other scouts is fun, it feels too underpowered. Did not played it after last alpha nerf. It should get 400m view range (or even better), same rof as 7,5 L/48 and 0.32 (or better) accuracy, 1,7s aim time (like L/48 has) and a bit better camo. Also price of premium round should be halfed. Its too freaking high for 135 damage. 

 

All those are stats that can be utilized by a good players, bad players will still suck with it. 

 

Anything else than a tier 8 scout is just crap. Maybe WZ-131 is an exception. 

 

I never understood why people hated the 28,01 before it became Flavor of the Month and don't understand it now.  It is extremely playable.  As for the Auf P, it is pretty fun to play but I understand those who hate the grind to elite it - that can be a struggle.






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