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CAP or kill all tanks


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SpeedDragon1991 #101 Posted 09 January 2014 - 02:36 PM

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View Post3kilos, on 09 January 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

 

A good player from my point of view should be good over a wide range of tanks/tiers ... not only good in seal-clubbing with Hellcat/T49 against newbies with bad crews and no equipment in their tanks :-)

i reckon a good player should be more one that chooses to play a particular tank (or specific ones) and really develop your skill in them. If you can understand just what tactics work in your particular tank, how much of beating it can handle, both how and when to engage the enemy (because things like speed, gun reload, armour, penetration ability, terrain, obstacles are all important considerations). You can then develop that knowledge and be a truley effective player. If you choose to do it at lower tiers, you will have an easier time relearning at the upper tiers, but I think it's the most effective at the mid-tiers. Understanding how the enemy works (even in randoms) is often helpful as well. Being smart helps too, knocking down obstacles where required, reserving your shots until you're absolutely sure you stand a very good chance of hitting (if you don't mind debilitated stats), angling properly and engaging targets you're comfortable with where possible .Some would even argue about reserving fire for targets that have 10HP left from a 400HP alpha gun (credit gain and all that), but personally I say shoot them and tarnish the teams ability to fire back by one gun. There's also understanding exactly what your role is in the team as well; figuring out exactly what the team thinks you should do, balanced out with what you think you should be doing. Whilst your role is dependant on your ability and (perceived) skill, you should develop it quite thoroughly.


Edited by SpeedDragon1991, 09 January 2014 - 02:38 PM.


John_Preston #102 Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:09 PM

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Well, most of the good players(statistic wise) have many battles in OP tanks...but there are so many good tanks. Thats why i love tier 6-7 battles. They are quite balanced. You can do well in almost any tier 6 tank, even in tier8 battles. The VK36 was my very first tier6 and i have 63% winrate on it. The ARL 44 and M6 were my latest ones with over 70%. It is the best tier to play imo and i'm not considering it sealclubbing to play in this tier. You can have 8000 games in a Hellcat, that's fine for me. You will met many experienced player, who can counter your actions.

 

With good crew and equipments(most newbie can't afford these things) every low tier vehicle(tier 1-4) is OP. I just realized this when i played the new japanese tanks. 6th sense, 100% camo, binocs, camo net, and you can kill half of the enemy team before they even spot you once. You can even make your tomatoes win by just asking them to camp behind you and spot the enemy for them. I won almost every battle on Redshire with the japanese lights.

 

Now the T18 is an exception, because it has too many advantages. It's fast, it can oneshot anything(even tier3 tanks), and it has an almost impenetrable armor. You don't even have to be a good player to pwn the enemy team. I saw many "green"-"purple" T18 drivers when grinded the low tier japs and i always made them my primary targets. That howitzer with HEAT can two shot them easily from any range. Some of them called me goldnoob. I think a T18 driver should never complain about anything. I have no respect for them.

 

For me low tiers are just part of the grind. I like to have a 2 skill crew when i reach tier6, so i do 100-200 battles/vehicle in tanks before that but that's all.



3kilos #103 Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:21 PM

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View PostSpeedDragon1991, on 09 January 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

i reckon a good player should be more one that chooses to play a particular tank (or specific ones) and really develop your skill in them. If you can understand just what tactics work in your particular tank, how much of beating it can handle, both how and when to engage the enemy (because things like speed, gun reload, armour, penetration ability, terrain, obstacles are all important considerations). You can then develop that knowledge and be a truley effective player. If you choose to do it at lower tiers, you will have an easier time relearning at the upper tiers, but I think it's the most effective at the mid-tiers. Understanding how the enemy works (even in randoms) is often helpful as well. Being smart helps too, knocking down obstacles where required, reserving your shots until you're absolutely sure you stand a very good chance of hitting (if you don't mind debilitated stats), angling properly and engaging targets you're comfortable with where possible .Some would even argue about reserving fire for targets that have 10HP left from a 400HP alpha gun (credit gain and all that), but personally I say shoot them and tarnish the teams ability to fire back by one gun. There's also understanding exactly what your role is in the team as well; figuring out exactly what the team thinks you should do, balanced out with what you think you should be doing. Whilst your role is dependant on your ability and (perceived) skill, you should develop it quite thoroughly.

 

No, playing low and mid tiers will not make you a better high tier player ... cause in low and med tiers you seldom have issues with penetrating a target and there are quite big differences between view ranges in tanks ... that's why in T9-10 where everything gets very good view range and you can usually fire from almost any position across the map game is much more complex ... if you just yolo around you will be killed in a matter of seconds ... also tanks have much higher alphas, you have the T10 TD's and you have really good armored tanks which you can only penetrate if you know where to shoot.

 

I agree that its good not to rush high tiers and spend as much time as possible in low-medium tiers but really playing lots of games bellow T8 will not make you better prepared for playing T8+ ... in order to become competitive in high tiers u simply need to play lots of high tier games.

 

Also tactics in T9+ are much more different than in T6 .. what is working in T6 against newbies will never work in TX against players with good crews and much more experience


Edited by 3kilos, 09 January 2014 - 03:22 PM.


3kilos #104 Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:25 PM

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View PostJohn_Preston, on 09 January 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Well, most of the good players(statistic wise) have many battles in OP tanks...but there are so many good tanks. Thats why i love tier 6-7 battles. They are quite balanced. You can do well in almost any tier 6 tank, even in tier8 battles. The VK36 was my very first tier6 and i have 63% winrate on it. The ARL 44 and M6 were my latest ones with over 70%. It is the best tier to play imo and i'm not considering it sealclubbing to play in this tier. You can have 8000 games in a Hellcat, that's fine for me. You will met many experienced player, who can counter your actions.

 

With good crew and equipments(most newbie can't afford these things) every low tier vehicle(tier 1-4) is OP. I just realized this when i played the new japanese tanks. 6th sense, 100% camo, binocs, camo net, and you can kill half of the enemy team before they even spot you once. You can even make your tomatoes win by just asking them to camp behind you and spot the enemy for them. I won almost every battle on Redshire with the japanese lights.

 

Now the T18 is an exception, because it has too many advantages. It's fast, it can oneshot anything(even tier3 tanks), and it has an almost impenetrable armor. You don't even have to be a good player to pwn the enemy team. I saw many "green"-"purple" T18 drivers when grinded the low tier japs and i always made them my primary targets. That howitzer with HEAT can two shot them easily from any range. Some of them called me goldnoob. I think a T18 driver should never complain about anything. I have no respect for them.

 

For me low tiers are just part of the grind. I like to have a 2 skill crew when i reach tier6, so i do 100-200 battles/vehicle in tanks before that but that's all.

 

T6 can be considered seal clubbing if you know what you are doing ... T8+ is the threshold where you can't really seal club anymore .. cause almost all have much better crews, equipment on their tanks and already some experience behind



SpeedDragon1991 #105 Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:33 PM

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View Post3kilos, on 09 January 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

 

No, playing low and mid tiers will not make you a better high tier player ... cause in low and med tiers you seldom have issues with penetrating a target and there are quite big differences between view ranges in tanks ... that's why in T9-10 where everything gets very good view range and you can usually fire from almost any position across the map game is much more complex ... if you just yolo around you will be killed in a matter of seconds ... also tanks have much higher alphas, you have the T10 TD's and you have really good armored tanks which you can only penetrate if you know where to shoot.

 

I agree that its good not to rush high tiers and spend as much time as possible in low-medium tiers but really playing lots of games bellow T8 will not make you better prepared for playing T8+ ... in order to become competitive in high tiers u simply need to play lots of high tier games.

 

Also tactics in T9+ are much more different than in T6 .. what is working in T6 against newbies will never work in TX against players with good crews and much more experience

Aye, but I said it makes relearning easier as you go up the tiers, but (and I think this is the misplacement - my fault), you're most effective learning at the mid-tiers because you've got a mixture of both supposed idiots and wiser players. You'll of course have to relearn your tactics and develop new ones as you progress into varying tiers, even going back down into the lower ones (if you haven't played low tiers for a while). The point is you should develop a playstyle you like to play, use tanks you feel most effective in, and really hone in those skills. Once you're there, you can safely move up a tier and / or tank, use what you've learned previously, and then develop your new skillset, given as you've said the dynamic will be different - many players will be slightly more experienced with elevated skills and abilities.

 

I don't agree with this idea of rushing to top tier necessarily, unless you feel a good twinge of ability in the top tier. I rushed through tiers one, two, three, four, five and six because I hated them; then I came across the Black Prince and all of a sudden I felt like I had a tank I could develop. If I had gone down the Russian line, I would've had the same feeling with the KV1.

 

To me, the idea is you develop a playstyle that you like to play, and then find tanks that suits that playstyle rather than play tanks for the sake of it.  You'll have to experiment at first, you won't know unitl you've got the absolute basics down, but you should at least get the basics (and Wargaming should teach this in their game), things like angling, how to shoot, when, what and why. Too often people go for the derp guns and magic-armour vehicles that are noob-friendly but are ineffective because they don't get how they should play that tank. Ideally, you should be able to develop your playstyle in the lower tiers and then build up on that knowledge over time.

 

 

Quote

T6 can be considered seal clubbing if you know what you are doing ... T8+ is the threshold where you can't really seal club anymore .. cause almost all have much better crews, equipment on their tanks and already some experience behind

The logic with this is that as you build up your knowledge, you move up a tier. Given tanks differ when you shift up and down tiers, this logic falls short in my opinion. You can become a very developed tier six driver, but that doesn't mean you'll be a developed tier four driver (though much more likely) or even a tier seven driver. The tank doesn't go with you when you shift up or down a tier, instead you have to choose a different one with different (even if similar) dynamics. With this logic, it is perfectly fine to seal-club at both tier one and tier ten. You're establishing a moral-ground where people 'should' shift up tiers if they're competent enough. Like a pyramid, the opportunity for seal-clubbing becomes rarer as you progress in rank and abilities, but the chance is always there if you 'know what you're doing.'


Edited by SpeedDragon1991, 09 January 2014 - 03:44 PM.


John_Preston #106 Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:56 PM

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What i see in tier 9-10 battles: nobody dares to move, because when you do that you will get instakilled by the tier10 TDs. Some people try to push a flank, die horribly, then the rest of the team(TDs) will camp till the time runs out....aaaaand another draw.

Tier10 tank destroyers are joke...a bad one. Artillery as well. Even tier 8 arty can oneshot or seriously cripple my E 75 and i have to face tier 9 and 10 ones too....

 

Lower tier battles are more fast-paced. You can run around the map, flank the enemy, go back to defend the base and so on...i even drive my T25 AT like an E 25.



3kilos #107 Posted 09 January 2014 - 05:17 PM

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View PostJohn_Preston, on 09 January 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

What i see in tier 9-10 battles: nobody dares to move, because when you do that you will get instakilled by the tier10 TDs. Some people try to push a flank, die horribly, then the rest of the team(TDs) will camp till the time runs out....aaaaand another draw.

Tier10 tank destroyers are joke...a bad one. Artillery as well. Even tier 8 arty can oneshot or seriously cripple my E 75 and i have to face tier 9 and 10 ones too....

 

Lower tier battles are more fast-paced. You can run around the map, flank the enemy, go back to defend the base and so on...i even drive my T25 AT like an E 25.

 

100% true, TX games are much more slow paced and campy in nature ... cause you can die a lot faster than in T6 ... 1 mistake and its all over, high tiers also reward having patience more ... many times its just better to let the enemy do the first mistake cause every dead TX tank weighs much more than a dead T6 tank so its only enough for 2 or 3 TX tanks from the enemy to derp around and die early and game is already lost ... once you have superior numbers you can press on the attack even on TX games.

 

One thing I must say is that I find the current maps in game very limited and small for TX games, cause of the view ranges in TX its very difficult to actually flank the enemy or play very aggressive right from the start, for TX games to be fun we need more larger maps with less choke points and more opportunities for flanking



Jernjomfrua #108 Posted 09 January 2014 - 05:29 PM

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Had a battle yesterday where the reds rushed the cap circle. Highest score on the winning team 186 exp. 

Peace and love, Zero damage done. GG..............


Edited by Jernjomfrua, 09 January 2014 - 05:30 PM.


3kilos #109 Posted 09 January 2014 - 05:44 PM

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View PostJernjomfrua, on 09 January 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Had a battle yesterday where the reds rushed the cap circle. Highest score on the winning team 186 exp. 

Peace and love, Zero damage done. GG..............

 

hey but u got the win ... so what do u care about XP/credits :)))



Pinkiie_Pie #110 Posted 09 January 2014 - 10:56 PM

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Why are people so bloodthirsty ?? Today my team lost and i hide just to save repair money . Those morons searched for me the whole map instead of caping . WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE ?????? Just cap and let the poor bastard live , he needs his money. Since 8.0 i try to hide near water or cliffs if my team looses . When or if the enemy finds me i suicide so i can waste their time and deny their creds & XP for damaging me . That should teach them a lesson .

 

inb4 server rules. **** the rules , if they cheat then i cheat.



John_Preston #111 Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:03 AM

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Because you are bad and you should feel bad. I always go down fighting. If i can bring 1 or 2 of them with me, then i'm good. :)

You should never give up until you have at least 1 hp...that's how Kolobanov's medals are made. ;)

 

The average Wot players completely lacks the basic survival instinct. They just can't stay alive long enough to let you do all their work. This thing is kinda strange. I see the same situations over and over again, when people driving across open fields, in front of the usual enemy camping positions. Why? Why are they unable to learn from their own faults? I cant believe that a palyer with 1-2k battles would die the same stupid way every single time. "Ohhh someone is shooting at me...i definietely shouldn't take cover behind this rock, instead i should turn my tank and try to go away...i'm sure they wont shoot my side" or "Ohh there's a KV-1S around this corner...i should just drive in front of him in my tier4 light tank and shot him in the face...i'm pretty sure it will hurt him"

For example: Highway, south spawn: when i see that the enemy team has some nasty tank destroyers and/or more heavy tanks than us, i always ask our heavies to not try to go in the city, becuse they will never reach it. Guess what, 90% of the time they will still try it and all of them will die in K8-K9. Now from the other side(northern team): after killing those suicidal tomatoes, you should take a look at the remaining enemy tanks. If there are a bunch of tank destroyers left you should not go from the city to their base across that big open field. But they will try that anyway and die between K6 and K9. I see it every single time.

 

A little help:



SpeedDragon1991 #112 Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:35 AM

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View PostJohn_Preston, on 10 January 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

Guess what, 90% of the time they will still try it and all of them will die in K8-K9.

One of the most common problems on maps like that one is how everyone clumps together, I really resent it. Assuming we start at base A, the majority of the team head towards the city in a nice straight line (G0 to K0), with a very minimal spread, at least when they've got to where they were going (there's usually at least some decent spread right at the very start). The problem usually lies though in that if the enemy are at all smart, they'll try and flank around the 7 line and around E0, effectively flanking the allies and picking them off. The easiest defense for that (in my experience) is for one of the strongest tanks go down the middle (G9 to J9), sniping off enemies that both try and flank and that might be sitting along the K line. Once you've reached the front, it's usually either reverse backwards to attack whoevers remaining in the city whilst minimising the risk of exposing weak armour, or push forwards with the remainder of the team towards their cap, whichever happens to be the case at the time. The other key problem is how people leave the top half of the map completely undefended. Square A1 to C3 tend to be high-risk areas, you should go to them if you have a good support (which you often don't; most tend to go towards the city). if there's a lack of support, the only real option if you want to support a weak flank is go down the middle by the river, hoping the enemy team are too distracted to notice you pass by.

 

Cap B usually has it a little easier, but the same general concept applies. If the team simply heads down in a straight line (only slightly dispersed) along K, then you're just leaving yourself open to be (eventually) flanked and picked off in much the same (but opposite) way.  The team should spread out towards the city I think, especially on the J7 / J8 area using terrain as cover to minimise the risk of flanking.

 

Tactically wise, it's not the easiest of maps.


Edited by SpeedDragon1991, 10 January 2014 - 01:40 AM.


John_Preston #113 Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:09 AM

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You can't really go to the city from B. There are always campers in E9. I know, because i always go there first from cap A. From there you can kill or badly damage most of their tanks before they could even reach the city(you can shoot everything between B4 and K9 from there). After 2-3 shots in the side they tend to stop or reverse. It's kinda pointless since they are in the open anyway, and our lemming-train is at K0 now, and they can shoot down on the injured enemy tanks. The problem is that after this they tend to rush the enemy base and die horribly on the same field because of the enemy campers in H3-K3 and all of our advantage is lost now. After killing their main force, i usually go back, kill the attackers from the A line(at this point you have to defend your base almost every time) and then go to A1  and try to attack their base from there.

 

When i start at cap B i always go north because as you said it's pretty easy to kill that 1-3 enemy who does not want to join the lemming train and then attack their base. It's a big open field too, but there's usually only 1-2 tanks there to defend(because the others are just about to drive in front of our camping TDs).






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