Jump to content


Light tank drivers, hear me out!


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
124 replies to this topic

Zarax999 #1 Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:39 AM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 10117 battles
  • 3,249
  • [TWC] TWC
  • Member since:
    04-08-2011

WG is starting to care about lights again so this is a good moment to get organized.

As I'm a crap light tank player I need some help from you skilled drivrers.

 

If you can write down an article about what light tanks needs in WOT (no mention of changes to other classes please) I'll help you on the german historical research side, make sure it's published in FTR and lobby with WG through my very limited means.

 

What do you say?



aGentleTanker #2 Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:45 AM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 21043 battles
  • 3,476
  • Member since:
    05-20-2011
If light tanks are supposed to scout, give them better view range - not , much, but slightly

Mystic_Silence #3 Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:52 AM

    Lance-corporal

  • Player
  • 1205 battles
  • 58
  • [XNEOX] XNEOX
  • Member since:
    12-27-2013
Light tanks need guns. :) And moar speed and maneuverability. Light tanks also need tier 10s. Please and thank you.

Eokokok #4 Posted 10 February 2014 - 10:19 AM

    Lieutenant General

  • Player
  • 18742 battles
  • 6,162
  • Member since:
    04-20-2012

No tier 10, that is not needed.

 

The most basic thing - rework of MM system. Lot of tanks are counted as scouts while not having any tools for the job (A-20), and at the current state not a single tier 4 light is really cut out for tier 8 battles. I mean I had some fun game in Luchs in tier 8, but I don not think that anything more then +3 battle tier spread for tier 4 lights is a good idea, so cutting it down could really help. Before T-50 nerf it was obvious that this little bugger could win games even in tier 8, the rest - not so much. Nowdays T-50 is one big pile of meh so not even one scout tier 4 is really good in this kind of situations.

 

Some tanks need rebalancing in general. AMX 13 75 is for instance a complete PoS when you compere it to T71. Not sure if the US tank is so OP or French so UP, but they are both more or less the same class/type while one of them has every single stat better/way better/insane. This kind of BS goes for more tanks/tiers, but is especially visible in the LTs in tiers 5-7.

 

One more thing - putting all LTs in the scout MM is just silly. AFK Panther could be nice tier 7 tank with normal MM, with scout one it is just garbage. I would grind one ASAP if the +4 spread was dropped. There are more tanks in similiar situations. In general, appart from few LTs, most do not fare well in +4 battles due to view range being insuficient.



Askorti #5 Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:20 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 11776 battles
  • 1,137
  • Member since:
    06-24-2012

I more or less agree with Eokokok.

In my opinion the biggest problem of Light tanks is that they don't quite excel in what they are supposed to do.

Let's take VK2801. It gets into tier 10 matches quite often, right?

At this tier (I think) every single tank has at least equal or better view range as VK. Some even have better camo when stationary while not being scouts (T9 and T10 russian meds for example)

 

So why would I want to have a VK2801 in my team, when a T-54 can do the same, and much, much more?

I won't even mention Afk Panther, because as a scout, it's garbage. It has worse camo on the move than a T-54. A medium tank.

 

In my opinion scout tanks really need to be both stealthier and see farther than their opposition.

Scouts should not need to rely on their guns to get exp in battles.

So you can reduce MM for scouts so that they meet tanks of their own tier or +2, or reduce view range of other tanks while keeping it the same for scouts. In high tier battles many people have the problem that they get spotted too easily without scout involvement. Maps are just too small for lumbering beasts such as E-100, Maus and so on. Why would you need a scout tank, if you can spot them across the map by yourself?

Just slightly reduce view range of all tanks aside from scouts and it should get better. I'm not talking about big change, let's say.. 30m at high tiers?

 

But there is another problem. Maps. We all know this, right? Most maps have 2-3-4 bottlenecks where people just slug out. No flanking, no scouting. How is a scout tank supposed to perform well in such circumstances? You pretty much have to be a vulture picking on distracted enemies, waiting for when they reload and so on. But is this what light tanks are for? I don't think so. But is there way to do anything about it? Not sure.

 



Aikl #6 Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:26 AM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 26886 battles
  • 4,349
  • [-MM] -MM
  • Member since:
    04-13-2011

View PostEokokok, on 10 February 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

 

I agree. Have a +1. I've had a few games with the Afkpanther as top tier or in T8 matches, and it is pure fun. I heard that they wanted scout MM on the T4 japanese light as well as the Covenanter, but it was decided not to, for very good reasons. Some LTs are fine without scout matchmaking, certainly those which are too large or slow to function as proper scouts.

By the way, the T71 supposedly has worse camo than the 13 75, though that really seems like the only pro for the AMX. It would probably be fair to give certain tanks different advantages. E.g. firepower and speed vs. camo and view range.

 

Also, the incentives for driving scouts could be strengthened, as a scout somewhat depends on the team more than other tanks. I'd recommend asking Tazilon, by the way, he is a very skilled German LT driver. If MM on LTs were eased up, arnaments wouldn't need large changes, but I'd consider buffing the German line to be more on par with the French and Chinese firepower wise. It is probably less historical than WG would like, but still.


Edited by Aikl, 10 February 2014 - 11:28 AM.


Eokokok #7 Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:21 PM

    Lieutenant General

  • Player
  • 18742 battles
  • 6,162
  • Member since:
    04-20-2012
Ke-Ho is great example indeed what fun can a LT be if the scout MM is not enforced upon it.

distrofijus #8 Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:25 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 30826 battles
  • 745
  • Member since:
    05-13-2013

There are number of similar recent threads, e.g.

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/351764-light-tanks-scouting/

People are suggesting that camonet/binoculars shoudl be active in 1 second instead of 3 for light tanks.

There are a lot of arguments about LT being OP in own tier (in good hands). They are valid.  And most of the complaints are about low tier scouts (tier 4 usually). So besides obvious MM changes there aren't many other proposals for quick wins.

 

The hard long term solution lies within camo/spot system. Most of the whining is related to that (TD/LT related).



Lancasthor #9 Posted 10 February 2014 - 03:48 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Beta Tester
  • 19049 battles
  • 586
  • Member since:
    10-11-2010

Scout survivability comes from camo on the move. Unfortunately a stationary high tier med or td behind a bush will always spot and take the first shot against a roaming scout.

Sometimes even without the terrain camo bonus. Some patches ago a very agile scout like ELC-AMX could evade and outrun the enemy, but that has become way more dangerous sport, specially against a skilled hightier player.

 

If we'd want to make dedicated scouts more profitable for untrained crews and lacking equipment, i'd suggest some vs  light -rules .. like neglegting camonet/binocs/optics bonus against scouts. That would give the lights at least some spotting chance against wall of dug up campers. Scouts and arty should be the force of choise for breaking up the now roaming TD supremacy.

 

Before that, i just have to emphatize on your scout role being at start and late game. No heroics against still quite full enemy team. Player awardness and map knowledge are the keys.



Zarax999 #10 Posted 10 February 2014 - 03:50 PM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 10117 battles
  • 3,249
  • [TWC] TWC
  • Member since:
    04-08-2011
That's good feedback guys, keep it coming!

Flamdring #11 Posted 10 February 2014 - 04:03 PM

    Staff Sergeant

  • Player
  • 19285 battles
  • 321
  • Member since:
    09-16-2012

To be honest, I do not see the purpose of light tanks in higher tiers, because of the map size. Top tier mediums excel in every single field compared to light tanks from speed, gun damage, manoeuvrability to view range, and because our maps are so small, once LT is spotted by high tier tank, it is more or less dead.

 

If we had bigger maps, scouts could have more room for manoeuvres. They would have more chances of escape from dangerous situations while now if you are spotted, you can be killed off from a distance of about 700 metres. This is not normal as unlike top tier mediums, light tanks lack any kind of armour.

 

Should it be too difficult to produce larger maps until the new engine arrives, maybe do what others have suggested and limit light tanks to a maximum of +/- two tiers. Playing Tier IV LT in Tier VIII matches is not exactly interesting. On the other hand, it makes you appreciate the sense of realism more as a single shell from nearly any tank at such tiers usually means your death.



Flinsenberger #12 Posted 10 February 2014 - 04:45 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 8009 battles
  • 577
  • [OE] OE
  • Member since:
    08-11-2012

1. Have light tanks give an advantage to your team. This may be achieved by higher viewranges (and lower for non-lights), more mobility, higher speed, less accurate guns or better armament/armor/hp. Drastically improved viewranges would work as "spotting bonus" for concealed TDs or others.

2. Remove scout MM. Add scouts for each tier (like arty). Then the damage can be balanced accordingly.

3. Increase maximum drawing distance, so that scouted targets can be shot at

4. Optimize light tanks for scouting. That includes

- give Luchs and VK 1601 Leopard a good gun that can shoot from 300+ meters

- give ELC AMX a radio that can actually communicate spotted targets

- make some models smaller (like Leopard or AufPanther)

- make some models faster (AMX 40, AMX38)



Eila_Juutilainen #13 Posted 10 February 2014 - 04:58 PM

    Colonel

  • Player
  • 21434 battles
  • 3,883
  • [102ND] 102ND
  • Member since:
    11-04-2012

View PostFlinsenberger, on 10 February 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

1. Have light tanks give an advantage to your team. This may be achieved by higher viewranges (and lower for non-lights), more mobility, higher speed, less accurate guns or better armament/armor/hp. Drastically improved viewranges would work as "spotting bonus" for concealed TDs or others.

2. Remove scout MM. Add scouts for each tier (like arty). Then the damage can be balanced accordingly.

3. Increase maximum drawing distance, so that scouted targets can be shot at

4. Optimize light tanks for scouting. That includes

- give Luchs and VK 1601 Leopard a good gun that can shoot from 300+ meters

- give ELC AMX a radio that can actually communicate spotted targets

- make some models smaller (like Leopard or AufPanther)

- make some models faster (AMX 40, AMX38)


I'll agree with 2 and 3, but I don't think Luchs and Leopard need different guns; I like their current style and with normal MM those guns would be much more sufficient. And ELC needs the bad radio to counter it's excellent everything else... besides, considering how radios work in the game right now the radio is fine. As long as even one team member is even remotely close you will have contact with him, and he will in turn relay all spotting info to the team.



Tazilon #14 Posted 11 February 2014 - 01:14 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 966 battles
  • 1,746
  • Member since:
    03-31-2012

View PostZarax999, on 10 February 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

WG is starting to care about lights again so this is a good moment to get organized.

As I'm a crap light tank player I need some help from you skilled drivrers.

 

If you can write down an article about what light tanks needs in WOT (no mention of changes to other classes please) I'll help you on the german historical research side, make sure it's published in FTR and lobby with WG through my very limited means.

 

What do you say?

 

History has very little to do with how they balance tanks Zarax.



Tazilon #15 Posted 11 February 2014 - 01:28 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 966 battles
  • 1,746
  • Member since:
    03-31-2012

3 Fixes for Scouts = end of problem

 

1)  Make them the fastest tanks vs the tiers they play against.  Tier VI + Scouts should go 72 km/h.  Mediums and other tanks should be capped at 65 km/h.

2)  Give them better View Ranges (by at least 20-30m) than all other tanks they play against.  Most people mistakenly think Scout tanks actually did the scouting.  They didn't.  Scout tanks were attached to recon units in which Jeeps or Jeep-like vehicles did the scouting.  The "Scout" tank was there to provide protection/overwatch for fast and very lightly or non-armored scout vehicles.  By giving Scout tanks better View Ranges than other tanks they play against, you would somewhat be simulating the ability of the recon UNIT.

3)  Return environmental camo to the way it used to work and get rid of the "extra" camo several mediums and most TDs enjoy.  If you go outside and try to peer through a 3 foot width bush, you will quickly discover you can't do it.  You can't even see your house through one.  How the heck could you see a tank?  You can't!   Bushes currently have laughable camo values - fix them.

 

Would some scouts be OPd at their own Tier?  A bit (lots of tanks are a bit OPd in same tier battles) - but above Tier IV, they almost never get to play their own Tier.  Tier IV Scouts already enjoy most of the above ideas anyway, so they wouldn't change as much relative to the tanks thy play against as would higher Tier Scouts.  

 

 



Zarax999 #16 Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:03 AM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 10117 battles
  • 3,249
  • [TWC] TWC
  • Member since:
    04-08-2011

Tazilon, history has a lot to do with buffs we can ask WG as anything without some historical backup is simply met with "How terrible...".

As for the feedback, I will wait until this weekend then I'll sum it up in a post and if you guys are happy with it I will post it on FTR along with some historical suggestions.



Flinsenberger #17 Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:30 AM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 8009 battles
  • 577
  • [OE] OE
  • Member since:
    08-11-2012

View PostEila_Juutilainen, on 10 February 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:


I'll agree with 2 and 3, but I don't think Luchs and Leopard need different guns; I like their current style and with normal MM those guns would be much more sufficient. And ELC needs the bad radio to counter it's excellent everything else... besides, considering how radios work in the game right now the radio is fine. As long as even one team member is even remotely close you will have contact with him, and he will in turn relay all spotting info to the team.

 

Negative. I don't know what they balanced the Leopard gun against, but it just has ridiculous dpm. You have to score fires in order to get meaningful damage. And the supposed alpha of 360 is in reality more like 240, because of the 3 shot burst the last one tends to stray and or bounce on non-weakspots. Happens for me on a regular basis against things like KV-1S, which aren't the hardest armored of all tanks. Shooting weakspots from more than 100m away is just impossible. I'd prefer a one-shot Tier 5 gun over the MK on the Leopard any time. On the Luchs the gun performs well. But the 3-shot burst on the vk1602 adds to inaccuracy and the higher tier opponents reduce the ability to effectively do stealthy shots and then disappear. Plus you can't snipe anything. You have to get close, and the maneuverability of the VK1602 is imho just not good enough to handle the machine cannon.

 

The ELC AMX is not a scout, but a light TD. Plus it massively underperforms when compared to the players skill. So while it is an o.k. tank with distinct characteristics and an interesting role on the battlefield, it is more balanced than OP. What it adds in punching power it loses in scouting ability, esp. since the Sigma Patch.

 

In the end, esp. in higher tiers, scouts do not bring enough to the table. They lack punch. They lack the mobility and speed to act as their "armor". They lack the viewrange to outperform hightier tanks in that regard. Most even have less camorating than some tanks, like a batchat or a T-62A.

 

So why should anyone play a tank that is worse in every way when compared to fast mediums? Less HP, less armor, less alpha, less dpm, less pen, less mobility, less viewrange, less camo? Because camo on the move is better? Funny.

If Lights are supposed to have a role, they need a boost in mobility/speed, viewrange and camo.



Flinsenberger #18 Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:41 AM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 8009 battles
  • 577
  • [OE] OE
  • Member since:
    08-11-2012

As an addendum: The way that the current spotting system works (maximum drawing distance) higher viewrange will only have an effect in respect to spotting concealed opponents.

 

Plus: Better maps. There are currently so many maps that limit scouting. Especially new maps. like Pearl River, Northwest, etc. They not only disguise their real size by making half of the map inaccessible, no, they additionally force you into a few valid paths to go down, limiting mobility, adding arty cover at almost every spot. They work like citymaps, Himmelsdorf, Ensk, Siegfried Line, and those are a scouts nightmare as well.



Eila_Juutilainen #19 Posted 11 February 2014 - 10:01 AM

    Colonel

  • Player
  • 21434 battles
  • 3,883
  • [102ND] 102ND
  • Member since:
    11-04-2012

View PostFlinsenberger, on 11 February 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

 

Negative. I don't know what they balanced the Leopard gun against, but it just has ridiculous dpm. You have to score fires in order to get meaningful damage. And the supposed alpha of 360 is in reality more like 240, because of the 3 shot burst the last one tends to stray and or bounce on non-weakspots. Happens for me on a regular basis against things like KV-1S, which aren't the hardest armored of all tanks. Shooting weakspots from more than 100m away is just impossible. I'd prefer a one-shot Tier 5 gun over the MK on the Leopard any time. On the Luchs the gun performs well. But the 3-shot burst on the vk1602 adds to inaccuracy and the higher tier opponents reduce the ability to effectively do stealthy shots and then disappear. Plus you can't snipe anything. You have to get close, and the maneuverability of the VK1602 is imho just not good enough to handle the machine cannon.

 

The ELC AMX is not a scout, but a light TD. Plus it massively underperforms when compared to the players skill. So while it is an o.k. tank with distinct characteristics and an interesting role on the battlefield, it is more balanced than OP. What it adds in punching power it loses in scouting ability, esp. since the Sigma Patch.

Okay, so the gun is underpowered. That means it needs a buff, not to be changed. I still like the /style/. Mind you, I'm talking purely from Luchs as I played maybe a few matches on the Leo since unlocking it.

 

And ELC is definitely a scout. The game tells me so :P



Orlunu #20 Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:32 PM

    Corporal

  • Player
  • 8380 battles
  • 142
  • [PRAVD] PRAVD
  • Member since:
    08-01-2011

I will be the first to admit that I'm not a very good/experienced player, but a problem I've noticed recurring already is that the maximum view range is just too short.  There is a very small margin between your fire support being unable to render the enemy and them being able to spot the enemy themselves at higher tiers, particularly with how few enemies use cover and the like properly.  I'm sure that it isn't such a problem for more experienced drivers, but I often find myself lighting up enemies who take no fire because they're slightly over render distance away from our TDs even though they're driving slowly across a field in the open, and most of the rest of the time my team mates move up to a firing position or the enemy fire and suddenly I'm not the only one spotting any more so no xp/credits for me.  I actually find myself consciously feeling forced to abuse the silly square shape of the render distance in order to keep my spots as mine while still letting my team shoot them.

 

Tl;dr  Render distance needs to be significantly larger than spotting distance.  Almost no one can shoot effectively against an enemy they can only see on their mini-map (KV-2 being a noticeable exception).






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users