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Light Tanks, how do we fix 'em?

LightAMX 12t 59-16 M5 A-20 T-50 Pz 38 Chaffee

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Da_chief_360 #1 Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:13 AM

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I figure this has probably been done before but the problem has effectively killed an entire class save a few vehicles.

 

Having used the 59-16 a little and selling it and restarting my 12t grind again it's becoming more and more apparent that this class sorely needs some love.

 

The tier IV scouts suffer from being transitional tanks, a line that is turning from a light line to a medium one. As the class stays as light the MM fires them into tier VIII battles, a place where their firepower is meaningless against all but a few. Some of the tanks receive a buff in armor, a buff that is meaningless when a tier VI is firing at it, let alone tier VIII. Their lack of maneuverability in some cases shows the change from light to medium with tanks like the A-20 and Pz. 38 nA having decent top speed but poor acceleration but it makes them poor scout vehicles and flankers.

 

The higher tiered light tanks of old like the AMX series suffer also, being inferior to most medium tanks in every way. I'll use the 12t as an example as i've been playing through it the past few days, The 12t has a view range of 380m, far lesser than that of the medium tanks it faces meaning it will be spotted before it spots the enemy and friendly mediums will spot the enemy before you. (I use coated optics to try an offset this a little but it puts me down one equipment slot immediately just so I can be closer to par) The gun, while it has an autoloader lacks the pen needed to reliably damage some of the higher tiered opponents it faces and if it does pen it will produce lowly results with the 50/50 promise of decent burst damage. The maneuverability is also a problem having bad acceleration compared to the mediums it faces (I use premium fuel and coffee to try and offset this but it puts me down 40000 per game)(I know it is to be played like a flanker but I find the acceleration to be lacking so I can't get into position to pen heavies without being smashed because "FREE KILL!".)

 

Now i'll freely admit I have little knowledge when it comes to the likes of the Chaffee or T-50 so i'll not comment on them.

 

I know that a re balance is supposed to be in the works but i'd like to read the opinions of those both more and less experienced players on how to bring lights back into the field in larger numbers without making them OP. (Hard to believe eh?)

 

For the 12t and tanks like it at tier VI i'd drop their MM to tier VIII max and if need be VII at the lowest to prevent it from stomping tier IVs, that would allow them to be played like light mediums and flankers whilst still suffering for their weaknesses but to a lesser extent.

 

So again, what light tanks would you fix and how?



molan1976 #2 Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:37 PM

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LT are useless as scouts as the moment, so only the initial tires can use LT. At tie 8+ mediums have to be uses as scouts. Although AMX13 90 is usable, it's not advantages compared to using a BatChat as a scout and fighting force.

 

The absent of arty, the overly plenty full TD's and lack of view range combined with insufficiently turn rate and accletration, made LT as scouts in tie 10 pointless.

T50-2 was the last real scout, I still miss it a great deal - now it have to get in line with the other killed tanks in game. All LT and most arty, are not worth playing unless u r very skilled in the type of playing.

 

TD, MT and HT are the only force worth using as it is, for the average user. Of cause great LT or SPG players can still do well.



Lolwut #3 Posted 31 March 2014 - 02:04 PM

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Yup, scouting is a bit messed right now.

Unfortunately, scouts are extremely unforgiving.

One mistake usually means gg.

 

At higher tiers, scouts lack competitive view range; infact, most heavies / meds will easily have 400+.

At this point most people will go like "Hey, but scouts retain their stationary camouflage while on the move!"

 

That is true, BUT, let's have a look here: http://www.wotinfo.n...l&showLines=500

 

Assuming the data is accurate, we can see how top camo tanks are obviously light tanks.

Most tier 5-6 scout tanks have about 15-18 camouflage....

 

And there, surprise surprise, we see tanks like E-25, Obj 416, Waffentrager, with ratings around 13-14...

In particular, Obj 416 has 14.55 camo on the move, while Chaffee has only 13.88!

Since Obj 416 isn't a light tank, that means its static camo will be even higher... infact, it's 24.55, where Chaffee still has only 13.88.

 

What's the point of having these 2 tanks in the same battles where one is superior in every way, and can fullfill a scouting role better than a (supposedly) specialized, end-of-the-line unit (Chaffee) ?

 

I think a rework is necessary.

Make light tanks stealther, decrease their MM, I don't know. Just change something, please!

 



Meglodon #4 Posted 31 March 2014 - 03:01 PM

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The biggest issue for me scout wise is what you encounter as a scout. 

I mean as a T5 scout I can be matched up vs T8 scouts. With autoloaders. And even the odd batchat. 

Thats just based on speed. My ability to get to a spotting location is compromised by the fact that atm some nations have far superior scouts to other nations. The old end of the line scouts are dead. They died when the higher tier scouts came along. 

 

But the idea of having a disposable scout is not dead. A scout on the right place can be a winning move on some maps. Even if he dies rather fast. 

Now if scouts got some kind of spotting buff. Like checking for spots more often at max range that be usefull.



armatage #5 Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:13 PM

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I think juts making scouts have normal MM would be fine. They did that to arty, so it can easily be done to scouts. Tier 8 light compared to tier 8 medium is a competetive tank, at tier 8 400 view range is still an advantage and while sacrificing some survivability and/or firepower, I think they would be a good match there. In tier 10 games, cmon, meds do the scouting and meds do the most agressive breakthroughs - I often have 2k++ spotting damage in e50 while in game packed full with t10s - not because its super stealthy ninja tank, but because with coated optics its stealthy enough for bush sitting, but also can take a hit (I find it easier to spot with e50 than with 13 90, as the latter one just dies when spotted) and it can do damage (you know,when the team is too inept to shoot themselves... so like half the time)

affie #6 Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:54 AM

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The sad thing today is when I play my LTs (AMX 13 90 and T71) I go for either scout or vulture-playstyle depending on the line-up and map, these tanks excel at vulture, swooping in and kill of enemy tanks with low health in one clip and then run away again, but what to do the first minutes of a city-game to not die. You can't scout that well cause the HTs will just go to their positions and slug it out and if you stand still someone from own team gonna nuke you cause you are not scouting properly. I tend to run away from all action to a safe location or just drive full speed to one location and then "change" my mind and run to the place I planned from the beginning just to look like I do something and avoid getting hit.

samphilconlor #7 Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:02 PM

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Simple remove or tone down scout matchmaking say to 3 above, it was needed when you only had light tanks up to T5 but now there are T8 light tanks what is the point?

 

As said if you are a T4 scout in a T8 game you really do have to wonder what you are expected to do. The Ke-Ho is a great example T4 light tank without scout match making and it's an absolute riot to play, great fun. However remembering back to the bad old days with an A20 (admittedly they didn't last long) and that was soul destroying really hated playing that thing I imagine the Pz38Na would be similar.

 

You'll get some die hard scout fans though who revel going up against high tiers like that but I have to say it's not for me.



justpin #8 Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:26 PM

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Buff view range.... the justification is.... if its small and low (like ELC) it can't have a good view range because it is small and low.

 

The counter justification to this is, if a tank was intended to be a scout it would be fitted with the best viewing gear and optics possible, the FV107 scimiar is like an AMX12t, but has the best optics fitted to it possible giving it a 2000m view range even in the dark.

 

Therefore assume coated optics are stock, buffing the view range by 10% ELC will see 396 with 100% crew, which you can put optics ontop of giving it a 435 view range

 

A-20 will have 352 view as stock.

 

 

My justification is that the game mechanics mean that view range vs enemy view range is the MOST important mechanic to be used as everything else penetration, gun depression speed, do not matter as you can't (normally*) hit something you can't see. Plus maybe give the camonet a 2.5 activation time and time from spotted to unspotted less 2 seconds.

 

 

*I say normally but on campikova when I can't see anything on my KV2 I will shoot suspect bushes, I do this in my T-34 with its 57mm gun.



justpin #9 Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:30 PM

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View Postsamphilconlor, on 07 April 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

 

 

You'll get some die hard scout fans though who revel going up against high tiers like that but I have to say it's not for me.

 

Like me...

 

I like going up against T9s in my ELC, the results are the same, one shot = death at T6 one shot = death at T9.

 

I strangely find T5 and T6 games harder in my ELC than T9 games as they are more fluid and have lots of fast firing guns while the slow cannons on the big tanks give you 10+ seconds to dodge and evade. It is also absolutely hilarious to dominate an E75 in an ELC  or an AMX autoloader with bad gun depression.

 

The rage it causes is immense, and there is NOTHING more satisfying that dominating an IS8 or an AT15 in an ELC.



samphilconlor #10 Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:24 PM

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View Postjustpin, on 07 April 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

 

Like me...

 

I like going up against T9s in my ELC, the results are the same, one shot = death at T6 one shot = death at T9.

 

I strangely find T5 and T6 games harder in my ELC than T9 games as they are more fluid and have lots of fast firing guns while the slow cannons on the big tanks give you 10+ seconds to dodge and evade. It is also absolutely hilarious to dominate an E75 in an ELC  or an AMX autoloader with bad gun depression.

 

The rage it causes is immense, and there is NOTHING more satisfying that dominating an IS8 or an AT15 in an ELC.

 

Understand mate and don't have a problem with that but try dominating that AT15 or IS8 in an A20 or PZ 38na, scout MM'ing at T4 is just plain unfair. If you are in an ELC or Chaffee and you are good enough go for it and good luck to you but scouts should be designated as such and people choose to go on the scout path.

 

Normal T4 lights are just cannon fodder at the moment especially as new players get them not realising they are scouts I mean how many times have you seen the poor guys in chat go "T8 whats going on" or slightly ruder equivalents. A big red warning siren in the garage before purchasing a scout would be a nice addition :teethhappy:



hucca1 #11 Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:26 PM

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There's a chance that if lights get too big of a buff they become too popular. There seems to be enough lights in most games anyways. Maybe just make their matchmaking easier.

no_name_cro #12 Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:33 PM

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My way of fixing them: Not making them at the bottom all the time.

If you played T-70, T-80 or other light tanks without scout MM you know what I mean. They are pure fun.



Baldrickk #13 Posted 10 April 2014 - 04:30 PM

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Just fix the cammo.  I like being in high tier games in tanks that are not designed as combat vehicles. Spotting doesn't need a big gun, or armour. And higher tiers mean more potential spotting dmg and XP.

Ulfhedinn_ #14 Posted 10 April 2014 - 04:41 PM

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Unless you mean the camo on those that are being spotted rather than on the one doing the spotting (which would be a great change as TD's are way too invisible at moment behind a bush), camo won't help active scouts, only passive ones. Passive scouting is still viable, it's active scouting that's being trampled on, with the accuracy buff, slower tanks, map changes to suit brawlers etc. Adding spotted damage to global stats would be a big step forward. Other than that, bigger maps and more maps like the old El Haluf that favour active scouts would be good.

 

Changing the camo on those being spotted would be a big improvement. Like in a game yesterday in my Luches, 2 tier 6 Russian TD's only approx 60m's from me, stayed invisible while they turned to face me (so can't be due to stationary camo factor or camo net) and then only appeared when they actually fired (and they also had no camo patterns). So that's approx 350m deducation from spotting range against a moving TD in plain paint just because it's behind a bush. That's way too much.

 

EDIT - And and and, like just now in my KingPanther, fitted with optics, rushed a Caernarvon with an AMX 50 100 team mate in tow, got to within 20m's of it and suddenly got shot & tracked by an invisible hellcat who was sat next to the Caernarvon but behind a bush, and who only appeared after he fired - from 20m's away!!!! This kind of thing keeps happening and I've been telling myself it's just lag and packet loss, so this time I asked my AMX team mate and he'd had exactly the same experience & said "WTF, why didn't that Hellcat light up before". So it isn't lag or packet loss, TD's have way too much camo, they are invisible when they should be lit, the spotting & camo system is broken and the 50m proximity spotting doesn't work. If that's not fixed active scouts will never stand a reasonable chance.


Edited by Maxmk6, 10 April 2014 - 06:46 PM.


remyga987 #15 Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:37 AM

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why always amx is last in the team do he be in top 10 or top 5
 

keyres #16 Posted 13 May 2014 - 10:19 PM

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I have a completely different view of things than you guys. I think scouts (T71 at least, as it's the only one I have in my garage atm) can do just fine. However, new maps (also most of changed old maps too) and arty being beaten to pieces by nerfhammer make scouting obsolete (and in some cases very hard too). Nevertheless, a minor buff and tweak here or there wouldn't hurt either...

 

When I get thrown onto Pearl River or Sevegorosk in my T71, my first thought is "Hoooray, can't wait to be someone's exp piniata....".






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