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Fix the M5 Stuart!


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DatNerdSwag #1 Posted 05 April 2014 - 10:47 PM

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The M5 Stuart had it's matchmaking set back when it was one of the highest tier scouts, and now that we have tier 8 scouts, it really needs a look at.

 

Tier 8 in this tank is horrible. It struggles to perform scouting at high tiers like that, where it often has to compete with scouts up to 4 tiers higher than itself. This means inferior firepower, view range, and overall scouting performance.

 

The gun on it is also terrible when you're top tier (making you dead weight), and is equally as useless when you're trying to kill high tier arty.

If it is going to retain high tier matchmaking, I suggest borrowing a gun or two from the M8A1 TD, for example the 75mm M3. This would let it play a lot like the M5A1, without just making it an M8A1 with two tiers higher matchmaking. If it were to lose scout matchmaking, lowering the view range 350ish and giving it the 75mm M3 gun would make it balanced in that role also.

 

All in all, this tank struggles when it's forced to compete with ELCs, 59-16, etc. never mind the higher tier scouts...



PTMxCh00b #2 Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:38 PM

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We should make a poll and show it to WG.

boomboom517 #3 Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:02 PM

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Not played the M5 but had to grind the M5A1 and i feel the same these tanks should never see a battle above tier 6.

DatNerdSwag #4 Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:24 PM

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View Postboomboom517, on 07 April 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

Not played the M5 but had to grind the M5A1 and i feel the same these tanks should never see a battle above tier 6.

 

The difference I found between the M5A1 and the M5 are that the A1 can seriously wreck people at tier 4, and only has 20m less view range, but the M5 sucks at everything anyway, so it's much more difficult to play since is at a huge disadvantage in low tiers and not that much of an advantage at higher ones.



Baldrickk #5 Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:13 PM

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M5 is fine, and the guns are fine.  You are not meant to be the best damage dealer in the battles you get into anyway.  Try passive scouting (not firing) for lots of spotting dmg.

That said, as I was also unlocking the chaffee as well as the M7, that takes a lot of XP.  So I got a little bored.

Full HEAT loadout in howitzer solved that little problem (and made this the only tank I have ever done that on).  With this setup, you can really dish out the damage, though it will cost you.

Watch out though, when they get around to the Americain light rebalance, they will be removing that gun (and closing the turret)



DatNerdSwag #6 Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:18 PM

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View PostBaldrickk, on 08 April 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

M5 is fine, and the guns are fine.  You are not meant to be the best damage dealer in the battles you get into anyway.  Try passive scouting (not firing) for lots of spotting dmg.

That said, as I was also unlocking the chaffee as well as the M7, that takes a lot of XP.  So I got a little bored.

Full HEAT loadout in howitzer solved that little problem (and made this the only tank I have ever done that on).  With this setup, you can really dish out the damage, though it will cost you.

Watch out though, when they get around to the Americain light rebalance, they will be removing that gun (and closing the turret)

 

I realise that you aren't meant to be the best damage dealer but this thing struggles to kill arty sometimes. I am fully aware of how to passive scout, but at the end of the game, scouts should be able to kill remaining weak tanks, and every other scout can except for this.

I don't want to full load HEAT because I'd rather not piss away 2.8k credits to possibly but maybe not do 110 damage...

What I want is for this tank to have acceptable firepower to kill remaining tanks at the end (like the other tier 4 scouts can), and with a 75mm howitzer, you might as well be throwing stones...



Private_Bufu #7 Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:27 PM

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View PostBaldrickk, on 08 April 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

You are not meant to be the best damage dealer in the battles you get into anyway.

 

Challenge accepted: Linky

 

But you point is valid though, passive scouting is the best, i really do hope though that if and when they close the turret and remove the howi gun the MM gets scaled down a tag bit as well. Atm its fine as it is, even in higher tiers with a bit of skill and patience's you can wreck havoc on you enemy (don't need gold ammo for that tbh). If everything else fails just track em and get the assist dmg on them, my profile on the replay site should have a replay of that as well where i end up second on the list playing against IS-3 tanks.

 

Much like the chaffee really you have to pick the moment to engage and when to hang back in higher tier matches, dont expect the be the best of all scouts, and try to avoid/relocated if you are in danger. Staying alive is more then often more important then doing dmg or getting those first risky spots out.



_Antipathy #8 Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:32 PM

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Yeah, change its gun for the M8A1's :trollface:

thwQ #9 Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:39 PM

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but killing t28 prot or t34 with m5 is just so satisfying..

goirad #10 Posted 12 April 2014 - 11:22 AM

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But it doesn't Need fixing! It is totally Op at Tier 4, that DPM with the howitzer. But yeah, you cant really damage is3 s or Tigers ect but Thais not the Point of this silly Little machine.

Redavv #11 Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:06 AM

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Correct me if i am wrong but i think M5 had its scout designation removed by WG 3 patches ago if i recall correct , i specificaly recall the patch notes name all the tanks that are assigned as scouts, M5 was removed then why does it still get scouting mm it shouldn't been in high tier matches.

DatNerdSwag #12 Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:17 PM

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View Postgoirad, on 12 April 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

But it doesn't Need fixing! It is totally Op at Tier 4, that DPM with the howitzer. But yeah, you cant really damage is3 s or Tigers ect but Thais not the Point of this silly Little machine.

 

I don't know how you're managing to do well at tier 4, because I tend to do 30 damage per shot, even at tier 4, which is worthless when you have tanks like the Matilda against you... 



DatNerdSwag #13 Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:19 PM

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View PostRedavv, on 14 April 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

Correct me if i am wrong but i think M5 had its scout designation removed by WG 3 patches ago if i recall correct , i specificaly recall the patch notes name all the tanks that are assigned as scouts, M5 was removed then why does it still get scouting mm it shouldn't been in high tier matches.

 

Yeah, well, this is WarGaming and making sense isn't really their forte...



Ulfhedinn_ #14 Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:31 PM

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But it's an active not passive scout. It has lots of speed and excellent camo value, it has a better view & radio range than the Luches, it's excellent for dashing about through terrain to draw & avoid enemy fire in order to spot enemy for your team mates to shoot, which earns you lots of credits & XP. Why would it need to do any damage? It doesn't need to do significant damage in higher tier games and in same tier it's an absolute pain in the butt. Bouncy, good for hull down, one of those tanks that causes Hetzer's, Matilda's, Luches, Pz3's, and B2's problems.

 

If it's small & fast & gets +4 mm, it's an active scout. If it's slow and gets +4 mm, it's a passive scout. Equip active scouts with optics, vents, suspension (optimises view range, minimises your chances of getting tracked, lightest equipment set up to help maintain your speed). Also choose whatever gun is reasonable but lightest in weight, again to help your speed - the 37mm looks good for that, and with an ace aim time and good pen (especially with prem) it will be enough for re-setting cap, getting enemy tanks attention etc. Best way to cause damage in one of these tanks, use your speed to get close behind someone and shoot them in the rear, to make them turn their turret so your team mates in front of them get free shoots without return fire. Play it like one of those tag-team wrestlers, don't try and fight anything on your own.

 

Edit - just checked, and wow, unlike the Luches it has 5 crew including a gunner. That means if you keep it a while to try and get really good with it, you could easily get Dead-eye skill on the gunner, making shots to tanks rears that this tank finds easy to achieve potentially devastating cuz with Deadeye, despite your shot alpha only doing small hp's, you'll likely wreck their engine and set them on fire which will be worth oodles of damage to you. 


Edited by Maxmk6, 15 April 2014 - 01:48 PM.


VeryRisky #15 Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:29 PM

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View PostRedavv, on 14 April 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

Correct me if i am wrong but i think M5 had its scout designation removed by WG 3 patches ago if i recall correct , i specificaly recall the patch notes name all the tanks that are assigned as scouts, M5 was removed then why does it still get scouting mm it shouldn't been in high tier matches.

 

Yes but this was for the purpose of balancing scout numbers, not MM.  Whcih they didn't implement.   And they were wrong in any case as if it isn't a scout what is it?



azakow #16 Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:10 AM

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View PostMaxmk6, on 15 April 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

But it's an active not passive scout. It has lots of speed and excellent camo value, it has a better view & radio range than the Luches, it's excellent for dashing about through terrain to draw & avoid enemy fire in order to spot enemy for your team mates to shoot, which earns you lots of credits & XP. Why would it need to do any damage? It doesn't need to do significant damage in higher tier games and in same tier it's an absolute pain in the butt. Bouncy, good for hull down, one of those tanks that causes Hetzer's, Matilda's, Luches, Pz3's, and B2's problems.

 

If it's small & fast & gets +4 mm, it's an active scout. If it's slow and gets +4 mm, it's a passive scout. Equip active scouts with optics, vents, suspension (optimises view range, minimises your chances of getting tracked, lightest equipment set up to help maintain your speed). Also choose whatever gun is reasonable but lightest in weight, again to help your speed - the 37mm looks good for that, and with an ace aim time and good pen (especially with prem) it will be enough for re-setting cap, getting enemy tanks attention etc. Best way to cause damage in one of these tanks, use your speed to get close behind someone and shoot them in the rear, to make them turn their turret so your team mates in front of them get free shoots without return fire. Play it like one of those tag-team wrestlers, don't try and fight anything on your own.

 

Edit - just checked, and wow, unlike the Luches it has 5 crew including a gunner. That means if you keep it a while to try and get really good with it, you could easily get Dead-eye skill on the gunner, making shots to tanks rears that this tank finds easy to achieve potentially devastating cuz with Deadeye, despite your shot alpha only doing small hp's, you'll likely wreck their engine and set them on fire which will be worth oodles of damage to you. 


So you recommend to save load weight in order to increase acceleration. A good aproach.

I would not go as far as to use the M5 as an acitve scout, since speed =/= acceleration and is not the only thing you need while active scouting.

You would also need nimbleness as well. This vehicle is far from being nimble, even with a crew of 3th skill training.

So we are back to passive scouting.

 

BTW, when was the last time you commanded this vehicle in a match?

I'm asking, because your memory might be playing tricks on you.

Moreover you have missed alot of the changes that make active scouting less attractive.

 

Your recomendation for Deadeye skill on the gunner also seems a little strange.

Lets have alook at the gunner. Camo skill is most important. Then, since you move alot you should have snap shot skill. Now the deadeye skill should be trained in order to own!

Are you aware that we are talking about 1.5m XP on crew training.

Lets assume you peform at 600 XP per match, hence this would take you about 2k matches to get there.

To me a recomendation that make no sense at all.



Dalkus #17 Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:49 AM

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Quoting SS from FTR:

 

Block Quote

 - tier 4+ light tanks will have their MM tier spread reduced (there will be exceptions for certain vehicles)

 

So i  guess M5 will have an easier life in 9.1 / 9.2 update



smoothpop1 #18 Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:40 AM

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im not quite sure how you guys dont like this little beauty i re-bought it for this weekends special and so far im having an absolute blast. a bit about me: im an impatient player prone to getting frustrated and completely incapable of being a passive scout, i dont consider myself a good scout and really hate the scouting role.... yet i love this tank you may complain about its faults but there are 2 seriously redeeming features about it: 1. it has a howitzer 2 it is a t4 scout.

 

you may ask why being a t4 scout is a redeeming feature well thats mainly because good players in higher tiers tend to ignore you but also it means if you screw up in a t6+ game no one cares, big deal youve not really cost your team anything significant

and as for the howitzer dont complain about the accuracy look at the pro: it fires a medium calliber HE shot that is capable of tracking any t7 and below in 1 shot and damaging almost any tank you encounter (is3 and kv4 so far only exceptions i can think of) sure the damage you deal is 50hp or less but hell you do that every 4 seconds and most people get really annoyed and distracted by that and start to make mistakes. if you find one of the new german tds just chuckle as you do full 180 damage at 300+m etc.

 

when top tier this tank is a troll, as long as you pick your targets and dont always go for those b1s and matildas you can rack up awesome amounts of damage in it, especially around hills where you can exploit your gun depression and trollish mantlet/ tiny turret

 

also another big plus on this tank is platooning with 2 others: me and 2 clan mates in a t6 match destroyed the following together: 2 elc amx, a43, 2 pz4 h, jpz IV, t 34 and kv1s the match was a loss but at the end we all had no ammo left  and we had enjoyed every minute of it. the same platoon we had a t4 match and took out between just us 10 tanks on 1 flank dealing a total combined damage of about 3120 damage....

 

either the tank is OP or i am OP and i seriously doubt its the latter....

 

embrace the tank for what it is dont try to be a battle god just do what you can and dont get disheartened if you dont do much after all your only a t4 scout :D



Ulfhedinn_ #19 Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:44 PM

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View Postazakow, on 16 April 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:


So you recommend to save load weight in order to increase acceleration. A good aproach.

I would not go as far as to use the M5 as an acitve scout, since speed =/= acceleration and is not the only thing you need while active scouting.

You would also need nimbleness as well. This vehicle is far from being nimble, even with a crew of 3th skill training.

So we are back to passive scouting.

 

BTW, when was the last time you commanded this vehicle in a match?

I'm asking, because your memory might be playing tricks on you.

Moreover you have missed alot of the changes that make active scouting less attractive.

 

Your recomendation for Deadeye skill on the gunner also seems a little strange.

Lets have alook at the gunner. Camo skill is most important. Then, since you move alot you should have snap shot skill. Now the deadeye skill should be trained in order to own!

Are you aware that we are talking about 1.5m XP on crew training.

Lets assume you peform at 600 XP per match, hence this would take you about 2k matches to get there.

To me a recomendation that make no sense at all.

 

Thanks for the advice. Thinking about it I probably played M5 before the accuracy buff on all tanks, so maybe it could get away with active scouting then. Now I play mostly Luchs and only active scout, but active still works on Luchs. I will be going back to M5 though at some point so will try it as a passive as you suggest :-) Also, according to FTR they're intending to reduce all tanks accuracy - maybe a bit of a roll-back to the buff they did. If so good news for lights and maybe they can be a bit more active again.

 

(re deadeye recommendation, that's only for active based scouting on my experience with Luchs, for active I don't want camo cuz I want to be spotted to make TD's turn to face me and everyone to fire to make them easier  for me to spot. For passive though camo definitely).


Edited by Maxmk6, 21 April 2014 - 07:46 PM.


Ze_HOFF_fverhoef #20 Posted 09 May 2014 - 01:36 PM

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View PostDatNerdSwag, on 15 April 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

 

I don't know how you're managing to do well at tier 4, because I tend to do 30 damage per shot, even at tier 4, which is worthless when you have tanks like the Matilda against you... 

You're talking about the most heavy tank there is in any tier (I know the Matilda is classified as medium, but in effect it's more heavy than almost any other real heavy). So as a light you're not supposed to be a match in a one-on-one.

And it's also funny that you mentioned the Matilda in regards to the small amount of damage a M5 Stuart is doing, as the Stuart is doing 40 with its 37mm gun, while the Matilda is doing just 55 with its best 2 pounder. So in that regard 40 is not that bad.






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