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Operation Spring Awakening: Battle At Lake Balaton


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ivaylo #21 Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:31 PM

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View PostSotahullu, on 16 April 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

 

Well Bulgaria was never officially with Germans but was quite cooperative with them and that goverment was never popular. But like Romanians they switched sides during 1944 but not before getting over 150 tanks and assault guns from the Germans.

 

 

 

It was officially with the Germans , Bogdan Filov signed the document to join Axis in Vienna on 1st of March 1941, and part of the Axis till 9 of September 1944 , but the Czar ( or the King in english ) never sent bulgarian troops in Russia cause he feared that the bulgarians could make revolt ( Bulgaria was liberated in 1878 from Russia since then russians have special place in bulgarian minds and hearts ). After the russians came a coup was made and the king was taken away from power , so Bulgaria joined the USSR and left the Axis. Also it should be noted that Bulgaria while not sending troops against USSR , sent such for occupy duties in ex Yugoslavia and Greece , by the end of the war my country was the only one part of the ex-Axis camp that didnt loose all of it's territories - Dobrudja remains part of our country.



Murphy1up #22 Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:42 PM

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Always interesting reading historical articles regarding events outside of what we were taught in school etc.  My knowledge of what happened in the eastern European theatre is pretty limited.

MajorSpoiler #23 Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:42 PM

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Czechoslovakia:

 

Hi, 

It's not so simple. 

Block Quote

...peaceful dissolution into Czech Republic and Slovakia on 1 January 1993. 

True, but it was second attempt for create Slovak Republic. March 16, 1939 (during German occupation) Slovaks declare the Independence of Slovakia, under German "protection".

 

Block Quote

 ...Legally, Czechoslovakia never ceased to exist during wartime, its continuity assured by treaties with exile government. The "Protectorate" as far as I recall didn't exist de iur

 True, but "Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia" do not include first "Slovak Republic". 

Spoiler - MAP

 

Until 20 May 1945 (Neronův rozkaz - Neron's order?) area on WG Map can be called "Czech-Slovak Republic" or "Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia" and "Slovak Republic"...

 

Czechoslovakia was before 1939 and after  +- 20 May 1945  (until peaceful dissolution into Czech Republic and Slovakia on 1 January 1993.)

 

but it's only few days :-)

 

 

BTW "Bratislava" is in Slovak Republic not in  Austria :glasses:

 

 

Sorry for my English

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by MajorSpoiler, 16 April 2014 - 04:21 PM.


Wisecr4cker #24 Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:06 PM

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View PostHunter1911, on 16 April 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

 

Hi Mart,

Czechoslovakia was a sovereign state in Central Europe that existed from October 1918, when it declared its independence from the Austro-Hungarian Empire, until its peaceful dissolution into Czech Republic and Slovakia on 1 January 1993.

Yugoslavia existed as Kingdom of Yugoslavia until WWII, then it was split up on 6 April 1941. In 1943, a Democratic Federal Yugoslavia was proclaimed by the Partisan resistance.

 

Therefore the map is OK :)

 

Hi Hunter!

 

Unfortunately the map is incorrect. Especially the border lines of Hungary that time. It was just seven years I know but it existed. 

Please check up on it and try to forget todays nationalism and politics. This is history.

 

Border changes of Hungary that time:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Vienna_Awards

 

 

 

Dear WG!

 

This map you used from Robert M. Citino is incorrect. Maybe he is a good military historian but bad military cartographer in this case.

http://www.thegerman...gawakening.aspx

Try to be correct if you finally want to make historical parts for this game! History is history and nothing else so it is so cool if it impartial and accurate.

 

Thank you!

Silverdog



The_Challenger #25 Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:18 PM

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View PostSilverdog, on 16 April 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

 History is history and nothing else so it is so cool if it impartial and accurate.

 

Couldn't disagree more with this statement, history is only as accurate as the historians that wrote it, I could cite many, many examples where historical events are not always based on hard evidence, therefore variations occur. Many of them bring with them there own believes and at times a wish to dramatize. 

Perhaps the biggest example is Kursk, ( which we have just been discussing on another thread ) as to vehicle numbers and so on. In essence because of the lack of accurate records (In this case the Waffen SS ) which were still restricted until around 1981 therefore accurate Combat Numbers were lacking. Therefore the Combat numbers for years have differed massively from author to author.  

 

 

 


Edited by The_Challenger, 16 April 2014 - 04:24 PM.


steelers708 #26 Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:27 PM

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View PostShade1982, on 16 April 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

Ah, that makes it bit clearer for me... I was wondering what kids where doing on the eastern front...

 

The Hitlerjugend division was first formed in early-mid 1943 and as the name suggests it was indeed made up of HitlerJugend member. There was a small cadre of Officers and senior NCO's who were transferred from the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler but the vast majority of NCO's and other ranks, some 18,000 men, were all Hitlerjugend members born in the year 1926, some were born in the first half of 1926 making them 17 at the time, but the vast majority were born in the second half of the year thus making them 16 1/2 years old at the time.  Of course by late 1944-early 1945 the Hitlerjugend division, like most of the 'Elite' Waffen SS divisions, were made up of a mixture of volunteers and transferees from the Heer(Army), Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe aswell as the normal Waffen SS volunteer recruits and draftees.



Wisecr4cker #27 Posted 16 April 2014 - 05:06 PM

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View PostThe_Challenger, on 16 April 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

 

Couldn't disagree more with this statement, history is only as accurate as the historians that wrote it, I could cite many, many examples where historical events are not always based on hard evidence, therefore variations occur. Many of them bring with them there own believes and at times a wish to dramatize. 

Perhaps the biggest example is Kursk, ( which we have just been discussing on another thread ) as to vehicle numbers and so on. In essence because of the lack of accurate records (In this case the Waffen SS ) which were still restricted until around 1981 therefore accurate Combat Numbers were lacking. Therefore the Combat numbers for years have differed massively from author to author.  

 

 

 

IMO history can be impartial and accurate (never perfectly of course and we are speaking of 20th century) if we study and investigate more than one point of view and try to think about it like an outsider.

I have no problems with Combat Numbers. Just as I mentioned In this case my main problem was the depiction of false Hungarian borders at March of 1945 on that map. Incorrect.


Edited by Silverdog, 16 April 2014 - 05:39 PM.


Greenh0rn #28 Posted 16 April 2014 - 05:57 PM

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View PostHunter1911, on 16 April 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

 

Hi Mart,

Czechoslovakia was a sovereign state in Central Europe that existed from October 1918, when it declared its independence from the Austro-Hungarian Empire, until its peaceful dissolution into Czech Republic and Slovakia on 1 January 1993.

Yugoslavia existed as Kingdom of Yugoslavia until WWII, then it was split up on 6 April 1941. In 1943, a Democratic Federal Yugoslavia was proclaimed by the Partisan resistance.

 

Therefore the map is OK :)

 

No this map is totally wrong.

1, Czechoslovakia didn't existed in 1944 there was a Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and a Slovakia  (some czech or slovak can validate the numbers but in 14.03.1939 Tiso declared Independent Slovakia and on the next day Hitler invaded the Czech Republic)

2 Also the Hungarian borders were totally different (http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A1jl:Hungary_1941-44_Administrative_Map.png )



steelers708 #29 Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:08 PM

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View PostThe_Challenger, on 16 April 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

 

Couldn't disagree more with this statement, history is only as accurate as the historians that wrote it, I could cite many, many examples where historical events are not always based on hard evidence, therefore variations occur. Many of them bring with them there own believes and at times a wish to dramatize. 

Perhaps the biggest example is Kursk, ( which we have just been discussing on another thread ) as to vehicle numbers and so on. In essence because of the lack of accurate records (In this case the Waffen SS ) which were still restricted until around 1981 therefore accurate Combat Numbers were lacking. Therefore the Combat numbers for years have differed massively from author to author.  

 

 

 

 

Posted this on the other thread also but what the hell.

 

The true figures for Kursk were available prior to the 1980's in the many divisional histories written by German veterans who had access to unit diaries and reports etc, the problem was that Western authors chose to believe the Soviet Unions version because they thought the Germans, having lost the war, were trying to hide the true scale of their losses and/or were just to bone idle to double check the figures.  Having looked through some of my 'old' books on Operation Citadel most of them quote the same figures which, if i remember correctly emanated from Marshal Rotmistrov.



Ulfhedinn_ #30 Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:13 PM

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View Postmaniac212, on 16 April 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

That Jagdpanzer IV  is amazing , makes me sad how bad it is ingame :( Please give it a proper gun for its tier.

 

The JagdPz4 is awesome in game with the 7.5cm L70, much better than using the short 88 on it. And isn't that L70 the gun it had in history anyway?

 

EDIT - anyway, yes, the article - excellent, would love to see more stuff like this, thnx WG :-)

 

a negrep :amazed: I guess from someone who hasn't a clue how to play the JagdPz4 and thinks the L70 is a rubbish gun on it. Have you seen it's rof with that gun??!!!! Do you realise the JadgPz4 has a superb camo rating, it's basically a tier 6 E25 without the speed (and the E25 does fine with that gun). With the 7.5cm high-rof easy-pen gun, invisi-sniping the JPz4 is a total killer.


Edited by Maxmk6, 16 April 2014 - 06:52 PM.


Epicboy97RO #31 Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:35 PM

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I'm sure there were Romanian forces present aswell

Ry0K3N #32 Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:35 PM

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I will just leave this here. Someone might find it interesting.

http://englishrussia.com/2012/01/12/equipment-of-the-balaton-battle/



izroda #33 Posted 17 April 2014 - 01:14 AM

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View PostLuck_Boris, on 16 April 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

  • You mention the Bulgarian First Army among the Soviet forces that fought in this battle, but Bulgaria was on the Axis side. What's up with that?

 

Check your history. From September 1944 our guys fought the Germans throughout Macedonia, Jugoslavia, Hungary and in Austria.



HUN_Sector #34 Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:39 AM

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On the picture there is a hungarian city marked, but mispelled: not Tatabaniya it's Tabanya (Tatabánya).

Gardar7 #35 Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:29 AM

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Lake Balaton's shape is totally wrong, Kaposvár is not there, Dunapentele and Dunaföldvár is on the other side of the Danube. Absolutely amateur and wrong map.

(All other falses have been written)


Edited by Gardar7, 17 April 2014 - 07:37 AM.


kekegsm #36 Posted 17 April 2014 - 08:30 AM

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There was some bigger tanks too. Kingtigers, a lot of them with Porsche turret, Panthers, Jagdpanthers.

 

 

Here is a pic, after the war the new goverment order to cut the wrecks for metal. On the pic the left guy is my wife's grandpa, they worked on the cutting. It taken at Tapolca army base, north from Lake Balaton, all the wrecks collected to here.

He is gone already, but I talked about the pic before with him. They cutted proximetly 25-30 Kingtiger, a dozen of Panther, some "Panther without turret like sportcar" (I think Jagdpanther), and 60-70 other tanks, PzIV, Jagdpanzer IV, Stug, Hetzer. No russian tanks, all T-34 and SU/ISU transported to russian army bases.

 

http://keptarhely.eu/view.php?file=20140417v00fiox5q.jpeg

 

 

Now I like to cry, how many beautiful tanks destroyed after the war

 



kekegsm #37 Posted 17 April 2014 - 08:49 AM

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Here is an another pic, makes somewhere at "47.227802,18.665599" on Google maps:

 

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4939/kingtiger2c.jpg

 



The_Challenger #38 Posted 17 April 2014 - 09:39 AM

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The Map : :smile: Is courtesy of Robert M Cihno, an American Historian who has wrote a multitude of books, the Wehmacht Retreats, Path to Blitzkrieg and so on. Not intended like most of these "advance" maps to be topographically accurate as its just an indication of the "advance" nothing more.

Likewise if you start adding historical names it can sometimes detract from what you wish the reader to be aware of or you are attempting to explain, and then necessitates a need to explain "known as x then now referred to as x".  

 

That said I think its great that so many have picked up on things, for one it shows people are reading :smile: and secondly it opens debate on the thread which is only (well usually !) a good thing. So many thanks. 


Edited by The_Challenger, 17 April 2014 - 09:40 AM.


Extasy090 #39 Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:39 PM

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I'm really happy about the new update! It's seems interesting! I'm from hungary so I will probably try this.




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