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105mm T5E1 buff?


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Szalona #21 Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:16 PM

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View PostStavinsky, on 13 June 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:

From Overlord on his blog, he answered the question that people asked there.
It's stated they get the T34 as a tiers 8 premium with the 105mm gun.
I have read it there, but must say i would have to look back where exactly.
I can't find it. Would you be so nice and check. I searched in the treads about 0.6.6 and 0.6.5 and in comments and I didn;t find statment that it will have 105mm. It was only stated that it will be T8 premium tank.

Rutger_NL #22 Posted 13 June 2011 - 08:24 PM

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View PostSzalona, on 13 June 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

I can't find it. Would you be so nice and check. I searched in the treads about 0.6.6 and 0.6.5 and in comments and I didn;t find statment that it will have 105mm. It was only stated that it will be T8 premium tank.
I didnt know about this either, so i did some searching and it appears to be true.

It is stated several times in the Q&A topic on the US forums
http://forum.worldof...eloper-answers/
Here are the questions and answers of interest for us:

May 9th
Q: Will the T34 keep its 120mm gun when it becomes a premium, also will it keep its engine or are these going to be removed?
A: 120mm is unlikely to remain, keeping in mind that T34 is going to be switched to tier 8.

June 5th
Q: On a similar note, will the T34 lose the 120mm gun and be left with the 105mm gun?
A: It is going to lose 120mm during his shift to tier 8.

June 8th
Q: Overlord, a similar question to the one above me. May ask some questions already answered so I am sorry if I did not searched well.
The T29 is the Tier 7 heavy of the US. T32 T8 and T34 the T9.
The T34 will be stripped down one tier. Will be, on paper, a T32 II.

- I know there is still no official statement about the Tank specifications and something similar, but with a possible, almost-sure nerf on its gun, can you please tell us, at least as a non-official statement, what would be the (almost exact or similar) buffs/nerfs it will receive in comparison to its Equally Tiered brother the T32?
A: There are several options for T34: RoF increase, keeping 120mm, HP buff. Wait for the official announcement on it.

Q: Maybe my last question was too rhetorical...
Overlord, WHY is the T34 getting the ubiquitous US 105mm instead of an equivalent 120mm, even one nerfed to the point where it is not any better than the 105mm?
It would just add some much needed differentiation to the tank because, as has been repeated so many times it's starting to sound like a broken record...A T34 WITH A 105mm IS A T29
A: Because it will be moved to tier 8.

----------------------------------------------------------------

So it looks pretty final to me. I am however amazed how they could ever decide to do something like that. A T34 without a 120mm is not a T34. For all i care they make the 120mm a bit weaker if they feel it is too strong, but it has to get that gun. Again the 105mm would be a real kick in the nuts imo. On other tanks they always say they do things because of historical accuracy, but when they feel like it they just forget that moral for a moment.

For example this:
Q: Why does the tier 8 US heavy T32 not have a gun upgrade like both the Is-3 and the King Tiger? Both of them have upgrades taking them to 225 penetration while also giving a small accuracy boost.
A: Penetration values in-game basically correspond to real life values.

The real life/historical argument again. But when some tanks are too good (for the russians?) they get nerfed.

And about the 105mm:
Q: Sorry if this was asked before, don't remember reading it. Can you explain the reasoning behind the US 105mm T5E1 gun being a tier 9 when the 10.5 kwk 45 L52 is nearly identical and in a few stats even slightly better for being only a tier 8 gun?
A: Gun tiers are very relative, although to reduce uncertainty it might be changed to tier 8.

So its whatever suits them. If gun tiers are just relative give us our 120mm on the T34!!!

Merc_Matt #23 Posted 13 June 2011 - 09:45 PM

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View PostRutger_NL, on 13 June 2011 - 08:24 PM, said:


Q: Maybe my last question was too rhetorical...
Overlord, WHY is the T34 getting the ubiquitous US 105mm instead of an equivalent 120mm, even one nerfed to the point where it is not any better than the 105mm?
It would just add some much needed differentiation to the tank because, as has been repeated so many times it's starting to sound like a broken record...A T34 WITH A 105mm IS A T29
A: Because it will be moved to tier 8.


Wow.. thats a shock  :mellow: Just tells how devs dont give a shit about US heavies.

_FeeLThePa1N_ #24 Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:25 AM

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Quote

Q: Why does the tier 8 US heavy T32 not have a gun upgrade like both the Is-3 and the King Tiger? Both of them have upgrades taking them to 225 penetration while also giving a small accuracy boost.
A: Penetration values in-game basically correspond to real life values.

Is he frakin kidding me ? Half of the tanks here were only prototypes. How can he say shit like this and expect us to just stay quiet ?
How come the american heavies got nerfed so hard with less penetration and damage on every frakin gun ?

The real questions here are:
why the KV-3 has a tier 9 gun damage wise ?
why the T34 has the worst gun damage wise of all tier 9 heavies, including worst frontal side and rear armor and slightly better turret armor ?????????????

when will this favorism toward russian tanks stop ????????

Szalona #25 Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:13 AM

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View PostRutger_NL, on 13 June 2011 - 08:24 PM, said:

I didnt know about this either, so i did some searching and it appears to be true.
Thanks, I can't read US forum (stupid proxy at work ;))

That sux.

Kam7r #26 Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:23 AM

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T32 need a new gun ! :angry:

Stavinsky #27 Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:11 PM

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Wargaming seems to have decided to make a hell of the life of the US tank
drivers, throwing out of the windows the "historical accuracy" arguments
that they love to throw in our path when it come to some of the nerfing/buffing
situations.

This said, and the T34 nightmare of playing vented, here i will post something
that i hope could be constructive enough.

In the actual state we have a couple of trouble with the T5E1 gun, it's shell,
and the use of that gun on several tanks.
The fact that the T34 will be set as a premium and the M103 should inherit
it's "flaw" in matter of gun is not here to please the US tanks drivers.

So i though about that solution, that would be a pretty good one to my opinion.

First we set the T34 case once for all, for it's premium state :

Keep the 120mm gun, it was the very addition of the 120mm gun that
gave the updated T29 it's designation as a T34. No 120mm, no T34.
BUT, to make it on par with the Löwe and the KV-5 the 120mm
should be changed to have tiers 9 gun stats.

And to be sure it would not cause trouble to other tanks, the T53
being based on the M1 anti aircraft gun, the dev should add a
'prototype' version of the gun (in case they want to keep the T53 for the M103).
That gun should have the following values (or close to)

Gun : (M1 120mm anti aircraft gun)
Caliber : 120mm
Damage : 263 to 437 (average : 350)
Penetration : 171 to 285 mm (average : 228)
Rof : 5.8 rnd/min
Accuracy : 0.33
Aiming Time : 3 sec
Tiers : 9
Exp Cost : ***


Those values are kinda balanced compared to the Löwe gun

Gun : KvK46 L/70
Caliber : 105mm
Damage : 240 to 400
Penetration : 176 to 293 mm
Rof : 5.71 rnd/min
Accuracy : 0.29
Aiming Time : 2.5 sec
Tiers : 9
Exp Cost : ***


Highlighting the value, the 120mm would have a slightest advantage
in damage, but a little less penetration. It's heavier weight would
make it a little harder to shoot (thus the 0.33 precision)
and longer to aim (3 seconds). The slight advantage in rof
being the advantage of 2 loaders in the T34.

Having such a gun built, and using the 3D model of the actual 120mm
would close the actual problem caused by the T34 being stripped of it's 120mm
as it get downgraded from tiers 9 to tiers 8, at least in my opinion.


That's said, now here are the 2 ideas for the 105mm gun issues.
As it was stated since the beta, having a Tiers 9 gun on the T29
was more a 'reward' to have gone trough the T1 heavy and M6 tanks.
It was also stated that the increased firepower should make for the
weakest armor.

That's good, but yes in the beta the T5E1 was a beast of a gun for the T29.
The trouble is that now with all the nerfs the heavy US line has become
a burden to grind, and very unfriendly to play.

To solve that issue, the solution could be the following :

First step :

Make the T5E1 a tiers 8 gun.
As it is a high velocity gun, it should at least come close
to the Tiger 2 KwK45 L/52. To translate it into numbers :

Proposed values for the T5E1 on the T29
Damage : 248 to 412 (average : 330)
Penetration : 149 to 248mm (average : 198mm)
Rof : 6.32 rnd/min
Accuracy : 0.34
Aiming Time : 2.5 sec
Tiers : 8
Exp cost : 16'800

KwK45 L/52 on the Tiger II
Damage : 240 to 400
Penetration : 150 to 250mm
Rof : 6.32 rnd/min
Accuracy : 0.32
Aiming Time : 2 sec
Tiers : 8
Exp cost : 16'800



Compared to the actual T5E1, it keep it's penetration, get a slight damage boost,
it gain a little accuracy boost, but need a little longer to aim.
The huge change would be to have it set as a tiers 8 and only cost 16'000-17'000 exp.

That gun should be accessible on the T29. It would give the T29 a little edge in matter of
damage that should be in line with the other tiers 7 tanks.

Second step :

Then add a new gun, the 105mm T5E2. It was historicaly a modification of the gun
for the T29. Here we could make it a real tiers 9 gun, that could be unlocked on the
T32, and if the M103 inherit of the T34 tech tree it could replace the T5E1 there.

This gun should have the same kind of performance as the German long 105mm.
Both the guns are supposed to use high velocity shells.

Gun : T5E2
Caliber : 105mm
Damage : 272 to 425 (average : 340)
Penetration : 161 to 268 mm (average 215mm)
Rof : 6.35 rnd/min
Accuracy : 0.32
Aiming Time : 2.5 sec
Tiers : 9
Exp Cost : 40'700


Gun : KwK 46 L/68
Caliber : 105mm
Damage : 240 to 400
Penetration : 169 to 281 mm
Rof : 6 rnd/min
Accuracy : 0.3
Aiming Time : 2 sec
Tiers : 9
Exp Cost : 40'700


The proposed value for Rof and all are based on the T32.
Again a little less penetration, but with a slight edge in damage and rof as
you have 2 loaders in the US tanks, and a good accuracy but not as good as the german
as it take into account the difference in optic.

Having such a gun for the tiers 8 and tiers 9 gun would get the US heavies back in line
with the German and Russian. Without being overhelming, it would give them
a chance to fight back.
As actualy the T32 can hold it's own while grinding the exp needed to go to the T34,
but the same is definitively not true with the T34, as the tiers 8 characteristics of
the actual T5E1 make it a real burden for the team as you can't hope to go one
on one with any of the tiers 9 tanks, and having a worst hull than the T32,
a bigger turret, and a lot of other weakness, you are only dead meat when
you are the only Tiers 9 on your team and you are faced with a vk4502
or an IS-4.

Kam7r #28 Posted 16 June 2011 - 02:32 PM

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View PostStavinsky, on 14 June 2011 - 01:11 PM, said:

Wargaming seems to have decided to make a hell of the life of the US tank
drivers, throwing out of the windows the "historical accuracy" arguments
that they love to throw in our path when it come to some of the nerfing/buffing
situations.

This said, and the T34 nightmare of playing vented, here i will post something
that i hope could be constructive enough.

In the actual state we have a couple of trouble with the T5E1 gun, it's shell,
and the use of that gun on several tanks.
The fact that the T34 will be set as a premium and the M103 should inherit
it's "flaw" in matter of gun is not here to please the US tanks drivers.

So i though about that solution, that would be a pretty good one to my opinion.

First we set the T34 case once for all, for it's premium state :

Keep the 120mm gun, it was the very addition of the 120mm gun that
gave the updated T29 it's designation as a T34. No 120mm, no T34.
BUT, to make it on par with the Löwe and the KV-5 the 120mm
should be changed to have tiers 9 gun stats.

And to be sure it would not cause trouble to other tanks, the T53
being based on the M1 anti aircraft gun, the dev should add a
'prototype' version of the gun (in case they want to keep the T53 for the M103).
That gun should have the following values (or close to)

Gun : (M1 120mm anti aircraft gun)
Caliber : 120mm
Damage : 263 to 437 (average : 350)
Penetration : 171 to 285 mm (average : 228)
Rof : 5.8 rnd/min
Accuracy : 0.33
Aiming Time : 3 sec
Tiers : 9
Exp Cost : ***


Those values are kinda balanced compared to the Löwe gun

Gun : KvK46 L/70
Caliber : 105mm
Damage : 240 to 400
Penetration : 176 to 293 mm
Rof : 5.71 rnd/min
Accuracy : 0.29
Aiming Time : 2.5 sec
Tiers : 9
Exp Cost : ***


Highlighting the value, the 120mm would have a slightest advantage
in damage, but a little less penetration. It's heavier weight would
make it a little harder to shoot (thus the 0.33 precision)
and longer to aim (3 seconds). The slight advantage in rof
being the advantage of 2 loaders in the T34.

Having such a gun built, and using the 3D model of the actual 120mm
would close the actual problem caused by the T34 being stripped of it's 120mm
as it get downgraded from tiers 9 to tiers 8, at least in my opinion.


That's said, now here are the 2 ideas for the 105mm gun issues.
As it was stated since the beta, having a Tiers 9 gun on the T29
was more a 'reward' to have gone trough the T1 heavy and M6 tanks.
It was also stated that the increased firepower should make for the
weakest armor.

That's good, but yes in the beta the T5E1 was a beast of a gun for the T29.
The trouble is that now with all the nerfs the heavy US line has become
a burden to grind, and very unfriendly to play.

To solve that issue, the solution could be the following :

First step :

Make the T5E1 a tiers 8 gun.
As it is a high velocity gun, it should at least come close
to the Tiger 2 KwK45 L/52. To translate it into numbers :

Proposed values for the T5E1 on the T29
Damage : 248 to 412 (average : 330)
Penetration : 149 to 248mm (average : 198mm)
Rof : 6.32 rnd/min
Accuracy : 0.34
Aiming Time : 2.5 sec
Tiers : 8
Exp cost : 16'800

KwK45 L/52 on the Tiger II
Damage : 240 to 400
Penetration : 150 to 250mm
Rof : 6.32 rnd/min
Accuracy : 0.32
Aiming Time : 2 sec
Tiers : 8
Exp cost : 16'800



Compared to the actual T5E1, it keep it's penetration, get a slight damage boost,
it gain a little accuracy boost, but need a little longer to aim.
The huge change would be to have it set as a tiers 8 and only cost 16'000-17'000 exp.

That gun should be accessible on the T29. It would give the T29 a little edge in matter of
damage that should be in line with the other tiers 7 tanks.

Second step :

Then add a new gun, the 105mm T5E2. It was historicaly a modification of the gun
for the T29. Here we could make it a real tiers 9 gun, that could be unlocked on the
T32, and if the M103 inherit of the T34 tech tree it could replace the T5E1 there.

This gun should have the same kind of performance as the German long 105mm.
Both the guns are supposed to use high velocity shells.

Gun : T5E2
Caliber : 105mm
Damage : 272 to 425 (average : 340)
Penetration : 161 to 268 mm (average 215mm)
Rof : 6.35 rnd/min
Accuracy : 0.32
Aiming Time : 2.5 sec
Tiers : 9
Exp Cost : 40'700


Gun : KwK 46 L/68
Caliber : 105mm
Damage : 240 to 400
Penetration : 169 to 281 mm
Rof : 6 rnd/min
Accuracy : 0.3
Aiming Time : 2 sec
Tiers : 9
Exp Cost : 40'700


The proposed value for Rof and all are based on the T32.
Again a little less penetration, but with a slight edge in damage and rof as
you have 2 loaders in the US tanks, and a good accuracy but not as good as the german
as it take into account the difference in optic.

Having such a gun for the tiers 8 and tiers 9 gun would get the US heavies back in line
with the German and Russian. Without being overhelming, it would give them
a chance to fight back.
As actualy the T32 can hold it's own while grinding the exp needed to go to the T34,
but the same is definitively not true with the T34, as the tiers 8 characteristics of
the actual T5E1 make it a real burden for the team as you can't hope to go one
on one with any of the tiers 9 tanks, and having a worst hull than the T32,
a bigger turret, and a lot of other weakness, you are only dead meat when
you are the only Tiers 9 on your team and you are faced with a vk4502
or an IS-4.

i'm 100% behind you with this ... but sadly... has WG ever listened the community ? ..... never ... so the hell will continue  :angry:

Intruder313 #29 Posted 16 June 2011 - 03:18 PM

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I'm 100% behind the idea and stats of the T5E2, it's a must I'd say to help lift the T32 and T34 out of their ineffective mire.

camper2401 #30 Posted 19 June 2011 - 02:40 PM

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Stavinsky, good idea, i hope the developers see it, and change it. :Smile_great:

MrCaffeLatte #31 Posted 19 June 2011 - 04:22 PM

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Post it in the Q&A thread, posed as a question (because apparently suggestions aren't allowed). I doubt they'll look in this dark corner of the EU forum.

lesseroun0 #32 Posted 23 June 2011 - 04:02 PM

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Stevinsky that was great post, but i think dev's will ignore this. Maybe they will change tier group for t5a1, but they will not give more powerful gun for T32.

Desert_Punk #33 Posted 24 June 2011 - 09:20 PM

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I bet that devs instead of buffing again the gun of T32 will nerf even more T32 as the rest of US heavy tanks and will buff all Soviet tanks equiping them with 1980's guns, engines, etc..  ;)

gobi #34 Posted 24 June 2011 - 11:23 PM

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This isnt a russian tank, so we dont get buffs, only nerfs...
If we are even close to the performance of a russian tanks, they will nerf it.

Valerius #35 Posted 25 June 2011 - 01:04 AM

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stavinsky, it's a nice thought about adding a 2nd gun but you CANNOT have 2x 105's with varying damage values.
The damage value is carried by the shell being used, not the gun.

One of the main reasons for the damage nerf on the T5E1 (from 360 to 320) was that it was mounted on the T29 tier 7 tank. It did too much damage and hence got nerfed, and WG was unwilling to add a 2nd gun at that time with a modified 105 shell. As such it is highly unlikely they will do the same this time.

The only american shells I know off that have varying values are the artillery shells, since a lot of yankee arty uses the 155mm.

camper2401 #36 Posted 25 June 2011 - 05:41 PM

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But this is no problem to change shells.
You see it on Ferdi and Jagdtiger, they have the same guns (128mm) but different shells.
So why they cant create a second gun, extra for T32 and T34.

Grunf_ #37 Posted 29 June 2011 - 05:24 PM

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I hope that the devs will see this thread and finnaly do something about this gun.

I own a T29,and the 40k ep grind was less painful because of the 90mm gun that i had.
And even now i'm kinda dissapointed with the T5E1:
  • High ammo cost
  • Low ROF
  • Small damage

I hate it when i leave StuG's,Hummels or bunch of these guys on 5%HP left.
Really,I'm tottaly behind these guys about buffing this gun.

Firstly,it needs to be nerfed down to the Tier VII,and damage increased do 360 or 400.
Reason-We have to grind 40k ep for it!Look at the counterpart's guns, you need 3x times less the ep for the
top King Tiger gun.

IMO increasing its ROF to 7(With the turret),damage to 400 and decreasing it to tier VIII to decrease the ammo cost,will
justify the 40k ep cost,unless it should cost about 8k ep.


IS-3 peak-a-boo  :Smile-playing:

SteelCity #38 Posted 30 June 2011 - 12:43 AM

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Someone in-game just informed me the 105mm gun on the T32 is getting a buff in this patch. Was he drunk or what cause i can't find anything about it?

Wriothesley #39 Posted 30 June 2011 - 07:22 AM

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Not the gun, just tank will have it's original gun depression brought back. They just corrupted the tank in last test version of 0.6.4, and ignored the outcome from players. After like 1.5 months they finally fixed it, even though their original statement was, that they will do it using hot-fix just after the previous patch. But, since it was just US tank, not RU (my assumption) this fix waited whole the time to this patch.

Kutalion #40 Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:27 AM

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View PostWriothesley, on 30 June 2011 - 07:22 AM, said:

Not the gun, just tank will have it's original gun depression brought back. They just corrupted the tank in last test version of 0.6.4, and ignored the outcome from players. After like 1.5 months they finally fixed it, even though their original statement was, that they will do it using hot-fix just after the previous patch. But, since it was just US tank, not RU (my assumption) this fix waited whole the time to this patch.

Good thing its not german, we'd wait another year for a fix like we waited for mantlet fixes on so many german tanks.  :Smile-bajan2:

On topic: I agree, premium t-34 should get a nerfed 120mm gun. Giving it a 105mm again will just make it a T-29. Which is retarded.




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