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 theta0123, on 26 May 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:

Interesting read even here it states the churchill was a greatly armoured tank.

 theta0123, on 26 May 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:

Bet you it didn't!


A single company of Churchill Crocodiles was deployed to Korea, however no opportunity for flame attacks presented itself. So they where converted back to gun tanks.
Source: Mr. Churchill's Tank, David Fletcher, ISBN-10: 0764306790 (Should be known as: Everything you wanted to know about Churchill Gun tanks, but where afraid to ask)

Black Prince didnt see action in Korea. I think they only built two prototypes, and according to David Fletcher who wrote a book on postwar tank development they couldnt hit a barn door. A pity, because they were a very handsome tank. If the Sherman Firefly wasnt available in such numbers they probably would have sorted it out.

That said, Churchill DID see action in Korea. It was Mk7s if it remember right, flamethrower fitted, though in the event they used them as gun tanks and left the trailers in their bivouac.

They proved pretty successful apparently. Like the Centurion they seemed highly capable of climbing hills/mountains, but I think the tracks may have proven even more suitable for gripping ice.
It was a great tank. Quirky, even obsolescent when designed. Its armour saved it from being a failure. In fact Im sure I read somewhere that the front armour of the Churchill Hull was as thick as a King Tiger. Makes you think doesnt it?

I do like David Fletcher and what he wrote about the Churchill (possibly my alltime fav tank) yet there are numerious inconsitances with his account of things and others, firstly the War Records at that time Mention 6 Prototypes, 5 of which were deployed in 1945 but saw no action and were later used in the Boer war.
The devlopment of the Black Prince was never made a priority due to the avalibility of the cheaper Comet tank and that the German Heavy tanks were become increasingly rare.

 Malcious, on 26 May 2011 - 11:48 PM, said:

When you wrote Boer War, barring a timeslip, Im pretty sure you meant to say Korea.

Ill admit Im not certain about numbers (it certainly wasnt many), but I remain doubtful about any of them landing in Korea. For one thing there was no requirement for anything that could fire 17pdr shot. Centurion was there, and arguably there was no real requirement for the 20pdr gun either. They could have got by with Cromwells as things turned out. Not that they werent useful of course, particularly in the Imjin Battle.

Im certainly willing to keep an open mind though, has anyone got any sources for BP being in Korea?

Where is the mention of the lend lease program that saw three hundred and one churchill tanks delivered to the USSR, more importantly mention of the brave sailors, many of whom were lost in the artic seas to U-Boats whilst trying to deliver these damn things.

A fantastic article in recognition of one of my favourite tanks. Thank you. Though the premium lend-lease Churchill in-game does not reflect the facts presented in this article (in terms of armour anyway), I'm certainly looking forward to the British tree and seeing how much better you might make it.

Personally, I hope the British tanks get a camouflage appearance like they usually got in World War 2.

 Listy, on 26 May 2011 - 11:35 PM, said:

I swear! i will find the source again about the black princes!

 kerfire, on 26 May 2011 - 11:24 PM, said:

The Churchill was well armoured. The tiger tank for example, had to come in at a range of 700 meters to penetrate it, but it had to be at a perfect 90* angle

The churchill armor was insufficient, but was just replaced in time with the MKVII churchill. 154mm frontal armor, 94mm side armor.. It was very effective
Another thing that contributed to the churchill tanks succes, was the crews. They where very well trained.

Because I'm a nice chap, here is the Trials report on the Black Prince:

Great blog and a good read. One correction for accuracy's sake though, if I may. Harland & Wolff. I assure you I'm not being pedantic, as I remember the 2nd 'f' each time I drive past the shipyard, as I drive past it each day going to work

EDIT: Captain_Mainwaring got there before me, but the extra 'f' is still missing

 Listy, on 27 May 2011 - 07:25 PM, said:

Very interesting, thanks for that.

Ultimately this is only a preliminary report, and gives little indiction of its performance on the firing range. But if find the bits about the round stowage, the commanders hatch and the fume evactuation very interesting. Good find.

 Malcious, on 26 May 2011 - 05:38 PM, said:

My grandfarther drove a crocadile in north african in WWII and i remember him saying that as soon as the germans spotted one aproaching they were straight out with the white flags
i remember him saying he didnt need to use the flame thrower much as the fear the tank created as it rolled up to the enemy was enough to get them to surrender

but he also said its one of his darkest moments in his life in that tank using that weapon on humans and watching them burn to death

 Hardass, on 28 May 2011 - 11:56 AM, said:

Where any Crocs deployed to North Africa? Thought that was all sorted out by the time they came into being?

 Listy, on 28 May 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:

alas i can not ask him now as he died 4 years ago but he did say to me thats the last time he saw his crocodile before being shiped to england to go to european thearter in a sherman

the crocodile was left on a beach in north africa and i have seen the photo ill have a rake about and dig it out but he defo drove it over there

 Hardass, on 28 May 2011 - 10:10 PM, said:

Brief research shows:
Axis Forces surrendered in May 1943, ending the North African campaign.
The first crocodile was built in October 1943.

Maybe Italy is a better candidate?
Sorry.

Indeed the churchill is one of the most underestimated tanks in history aswell as in game.

 Listy, on 28 May 2011 - 11:10 PM, said:

The Churchill saw action primarily in Europe and North Africa. A few Mk IIIs were tried at Alamein and thereafter were used in increasing numbers in Tunisia and Italy. Several brigades of Chuchills were deployed to northwest Europe. The Churchill remained in service well into the 1950s.

http://www.wizards.c...cle/ah20050715b

The offical Croc was in MK7 Model, sveral MK3's in Africa were fitted with flamethrowers during the closing days.
Your grandfather must of felt kinda sucky to be moved from something like a Churchill into a Sherman.

My Grandfather was one of the lucky Tank Commanders placed in command of a Matilda II during the Fall of France, he kept it till it was blown up in Africa, then he was given a Crusader, whch he hated becuase it went "too dam fast".

He served in Italy in something he called an "Stupid open-topped American Tin Can" which I'd always assumed was an M10 as they were supplied under land lease.

 Malcious, on 29 May 2011 - 11:31 PM, said:

Again, you sure? I think your referring to the Churchill Oke, as used at Dieppe. However I don't think that any made it to NA either.

 Malcious, on 29 May 2011 - 11:31 PM, said:

  
never heard him complian about the sherman tbh he did say he went through 2 of them one he was in didnt get of the beach in normandy was given another and he kept that one alive
or it kept him alive till end of the europe campaing and yea your right it was a field mod on the croc with the flame thrower in africa pretty pround of him knowing he was one of the first
people ever to take a croc into combat the tank was that new to him he and his crew had to repaint it on the dock from green to sand camo just of the boat