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KwK and PaK


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Spiediens #1 Posted 02 June 2014 - 09:38 PM

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As the topic implies, in-game TD's use PaK cannons, while tanks normally use the KwK versions of the same gun. Is this accurate?. Were there any differences between the two historically?

Keyhand #2 Posted 03 June 2014 - 11:29 AM

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It is just the german designation for guns for different types of vehicles.

 

KwK is short for Kampfwagenkanone, literal translation being "Gun for a fighting vehicle"

PaK is short for Panzerabwehrkanone, literal translation being "Gun for fending off tanks"

 

the historical difference would be that a gun was a bit modified when put on different vehicles, also accounting for better reload times since on a TD you had more space to put a more sophisticated loading system (or the loader had more space to move^^) because it was not limited to the turret.

Also I could imagine the sights and other tools for aiming being midified for TDs.

 

One example is the famous PaK 88, the 8.8 cm gun which originally was a FlaK gun ("Gun for fending off Aircraft" ->AA gun) but it did so well against tanks that a few little modifications were done and boom ready was your Pak ;)



imperiumgraecum #3 Posted 03 June 2014 - 12:15 PM

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View PostKeyhand, on 03 June 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

One example is the famous PaK 88, the 8.8 cm gun which originally was a FlaK gun ("Gun for fending off Aircraft" ->AA gun) but it did so well against tanks that a few little modifications were done and boom ready was your Pak ;)

 

And then the glorious KwK 88L56 :justwait:



IRSanchez #4 Posted 03 June 2014 - 12:21 PM

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View PostKeyhand, on 03 June 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

It is just the german designation for guns for different types of vehicles.

 

KwK is short for Kampfwagenkanone, literal translation being "Gun for a fighting vehicle"

PaK is short for Panzerabwehrkanone, literal translation being "Gun for fending off tanks"

 

the historical difference would be that a gun was a bit modified when put on different vehicles, also accounting for better reload times since on a TD you had more space to put a more sophisticated loading system (or the loader had more space to move^^) because it was not limited to the turret.

Also I could imagine the sights and other tools for aiming being midified for TDs.

 

One example is the famous PaK 88, the 8.8 cm gun which originally was a FlaK gun ("Gun for fending off Aircraft" ->AA gun) but it did so well against tanks that a few little modifications were done and boom ready was your Pak ;)


Well said and yet im out of +1's :angry:



bigbobthewhite #5 Posted 25 June 2014 - 05:31 PM

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View PostKeyhand, on 03 June 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

It is just the german designation for guns for different types of vehicles.

 

KwK is short for Kampfwagenkanone, literal translation being "Gun for a fighting vehicle"

PaK is short for Panzerabwehrkanone, literal translation being "Gun for fending off tanks"

 

the historical difference would be that a gun was a bit modified when put on different vehicles, also accounting for better reload times since on a TD you had more space to put a more sophisticated loading system (or the loader had more space to move^^) because it was not limited to the turret.

Also I could imagine the sights and other tools for aiming being midified for TDs.

 

One example is the famous PaK 88, the 8.8 cm gun which originally was a FlaK gun ("Gun for fending off Aircraft" ->AA gun) but it did so well against tanks that a few little modifications were done and boom ready was your Pak ;)

 

"the historical difference would be that a gun was a bit modified when put on different vehicles, also accounting for better reload times since on a TD you had more space to put a more sophisticated loading system (or the loader had more space to move^^) because it was not limited to the turret."

 

better reload times? Not really, the PaK 40 cartridge is very long, it's easier to reload a KwK 40. The Marder has a good ROF because, yes, it's open. No other modifications were made, just a pak 40 crammed onto a vehicule, no other type of sight or "sophisticated ldg systm" was used.

 

 

"One example is the famous PaK 88, the 8.8 cm gun which originally was a FlaK gun ("Gun for fending off Aircraft" ->AA gun) but it did so well against tanks that a few little modifications were done and boom ready was your Pak ;)"

 

There is no such thing as a PaK 88. The only 8.8cm PaK was the PaK 43, designed in 1941-1942 and used from 1943. It was based off the FlaK 41, itself a developement of the FlaK 36. The FlaK 41 was a high performance AA gun shooting at 950-1000m/s using a bigger cartridge and longer barrel compared to the 36 (L74 vs L56).

 

The Flak 36 never was made into a PaK gun, but, of course, into a KwK gun, used in the tiger.

 

 

 

View PostSpiediens, on 02 June 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

As the topic implies, in-game TD's use PaK cannons, while tanks normally use the KwK versions of the same gun. Is this accurate?. Were there any differences between the two historically?

 

Yes it is accurate. PaK mounted on vehicules are guns orginally designed as field anti-tank guns. For example, the 7.5cm PaK 40 is probably the most used PaK gun mounted on any vehicles: marder series, RSO, sdkfz 251 variants, etc.  The 5cm PaK 38 wasn't really mounted on many vehicles, but, there were some.

 

Basically, a KwK version of a PaK has these changes: slightly different breech, with sometimes loading position inverted (left instead of right, etc), different aiming devices, usually articulated in parallel to the gun, usually an electric fire mode (not sure about KwK <75mm) instead of a striking pin on the PaK (meaning the KwK ammo are not usuable in PaK guns and vice versa, even if it's the same cartridge), cams and trunions designed for mount in the turret, and that's it i think. Oh, and the recoil buffers are usually placed differently (on the Pak 40 it's under the tube, on the KwK 40 it's on its side) or are even a different design. Unlike in the game, Pak and KwK versions are strictly the same in accuracy and ballistic, etc...

 

Usually (actually always), PaK and KwK uses strictly the same cartridge and ammo (except the type of primer), one exception: PaK 40 and KwK 40. The case of the PaK is very long and straight walled. It was found unpractical for the use in tanks, so, the KwK 40 uses a bottlenecked shorter case. Shells are the same, and propellant load is the same giving 750m/s in both pak and kwk (L46 and L48) and 740m/s in early L43 kwk 40.

 

the "StuK" guns (sturmgeshutze kanone) are simply slightly modified variants of the KwK 40, for use in StuG. It's really strictly the same, using the same bottlenecked cartridge. the PaK 39 in use on the Hetzer is simply a modified variant of the stuk 40, so... Really, different names, but, same guns.

 

the 8.8cm PaK 43 (originally developped from the high power 8.8cm FlaK 41 gun) existed of course in towed version ( one on the basis of a SFh-18 15cm field gun, one other on a 360° firing station), and was mounted in several tank destroyers: Nashorn, Elefant, Jagdpanther, and several Waffen-trager prototypes. The KwK 43 version of the gun, was modified and used in the Tiger 2. The cartridge is strictly the same for both PaK and KwK, except primers. However, the cartridge of the FlaK 41 is a bit longer, and, less bottlenecked.


Edited by bigbobthewhite, 25 June 2014 - 05:31 PM.





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