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Skills training vs experience


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barabaf #1 Posted 06 June 2011 - 06:41 PM

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After someone started a thread in the newcomer's forum about specialization training i decided to do some test and here are the results :

We have two sources of informations about Skills training versus experience

First one i met was is the wiki showing a graph

So according to the wiki graph for Primary skill we should need 3750 xp to go from 75% to 76% wich, after some tests is obviously not true.


The second source is a reply from Overlord

Quote

3. Primary (basic) qualification: 1st % - 50 exp, 50th % - 500 exp, 100th % - 5000 exp.
Each additional qualification is twice more expensive.

Translating the numbers given by Overlord into a formula was more succesfull

xp you need to go to the next % is : xp=50*(100^(1/100))^k
k being the % you are
For secondary skills replace the 50 in the above formulae with 100, 200 or 400

This gives exactly 500xp to go from 50% to 51% and 5000xp to go from 100% to 101% (wich make no sense that's why i first went to an other formulae)

Here is the new graph i have obtained with this formula :

Posted Image

So it's a total of 77543 xp for your Primary skill to go from 75% to 100%, 220064 xp for  1st Secondary skill to go from 0% to 100%, 440128 xp for 2nd Secondary skill to go from 0% to 100% and 880255 xp for 3rd Secondary skill to go from 0% to 100%


Other points i have found while doing this tests :

- I have seen somewhere in this forum that the xp you gain from a battle is divided between your crew memebrs but all my test show that each crew member get all the xp (and that's nice because my T-28 as 6 of them !)

- A dead crew member get a 10% reduction (rounded to the highest) to the xp he would have normaly got from the battle (maybe this is a well known info but i didn't find it before)

- The double xp for first win is taken into account for the % calculation but not on xp shown in the crew member's stats (so the xp you see in crew member's stats is lower than what he really have)

Hope this will help ...

Schurmeyer #2 Posted 06 June 2011 - 06:49 PM

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Some nice digging there mate.  +1

director #3 Posted 06 June 2011 - 07:27 PM

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here are some info. my commander on pz IV.

He hit 100% (from 75%) on 65000 exp.
Now he have 100% + 17% in camo skill with 67.871 exp

all exp gained on Pz IV only

maybe it is diferent on all tanks.

incurably #4 Posted 06 June 2011 - 07:29 PM

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View Postdirector, on 06 June 2011 - 07:27 PM, said:

here are some info. my commander on pz IV.

He hit 100% (from 75%) on 65000 exp.
Now he have 100% + 17% in camo skill with 67.871 exp

all exp gained on Pz IV only

maybe it is diferent on all tanks.


problematic is that double xp appearantly is given to crew but not put on the statistic

as OP stated


but yeah i was trying to figure out the curve for this but i went with 99to100 instead of 100to101 and that kidna screwed my curve
but nice that we finally have the formula for that

i had kinda the same results on small scales


the dead crew thing i already stated in one of the threads in eta
and yeah it is better to train crews in tanks with many people so you train more people at the same tme with no penalty to yourself

+1

Stoffy #5 Posted 06 June 2011 - 10:53 PM

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View Postbarabaf, on 06 June 2011 - 06:41 PM, said:

- I have seen somewhere in this forum that the xp you gain from a battle is divided between your crew memebrs but all my test show that each crew member get all the xp (and that's nice because my T-28 as 6 of them !)

Very nice compilation OP.
Regarding the quote above; I believe you've misread this part. Each crew member will indeed get the same XP as you earn in the game so if you earn 500 xp in a game, your tank will get 500 xp and each crew member will get 500 xp.
If your tank however have Elite status and you activate accelerated crew training, the 500 xp that normally would go to the tank will instead be divided amongst the crew members.

incurably #6 Posted 06 June 2011 - 11:09 PM

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View PostStoffy, on 06 June 2011 - 10:53 PM, said:

Very nice compilation OP.
Regarding the quote above; I believe you've misread this part. Each crew member will indeed get the same XP as you earn in the game so if you earn 500 xp in a game, your tank will get 500 xp and each crew member will get 500 xp.
If your tank however have Elite status and you activate accelerated crew training, the 500 xp that normally would go to the tank will instead be divided amongst the crew members.

i heard that the member with the lowest xp gets all to equal out the crew

barabaf #7 Posted 07 June 2011 - 03:13 PM

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View Postnatural_killer_cell, on 06 June 2011 - 11:09 PM, said:

i heard that the member with the lowest xp gets all to equal out the crew

Looks like this one !
According to this Overlord statement

Quote

1. Only the least experienced crew member benefits from rapid crew training.

TY all for details and comments

DougHole #8 Posted 07 June 2011 - 03:28 PM

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I have reviewed the graph, and based on the fact I play around 6 or 7 hours a week I should have finish my 'secondary skill 3' by March 5th, 2020.

barabaf #9 Posted 08 June 2011 - 01:47 PM

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Sorry guys but it looks like the "EU Questions & Answers" as been cleaned and the links to Overlod's quote are now broken ... i'll try to fix this asap

Stoffy #10 Posted 08 June 2011 - 02:35 PM

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View Postbarabaf, on 08 June 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

Sorry guys but it looks like the "EU Questions & Answers" as been cleaned and the links to Overlod's quote are now broken ... i'll try to fix this asap
Here is the question and Overlords answer:

Q:1-i got my mouse a few days ago (cookies for all) and transfered the crew from vk4502 on it-i was a loader short so i recruted a new one, bought him 75 % training and he reached 100% in only some 30 battles, do experienced crew members accelerate training of unexperienced ones?

A:1. only the least experienced crew member benefits from rapid crew training.

So it does indeed look like there is a balancing function that regulates the distribution of the "accelerated" XP so that the crew with the lowest skill first get "boosted" to the level of the other crew members.

harry_monkley #11 Posted 08 June 2011 - 02:56 PM

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Nice graph barabaf,

From personal experience of starting tanks with 75% crews and noting accrued experience from the crew members statistics, to reach 100% requires usually ~65,000 XP, and when you transfer and retrain a crew so they start at 100% it takes ~30,000 XP to reach 100% again, but this does seem to vary from tank to tank and doesn't appear to be linked to the number of members in the crew.

I suspect that there may be a hidden co-efficient that differs from tank to tank, or that the crew get a training bonus for victories that allows them to reach 100% faster than the 77,543 XP that you have calculated.

incurably #12 Posted 08 June 2011 - 03:19 PM

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View Postharry_monkley, on 08 June 2011 - 02:56 PM, said:

Nice graph barabaf,

From personal experience of starting tanks with 75% crews and noting accrued experience from the crew members statistics, to reach 100% requires usually ~65,000 XP, and when you transfer and retrain a crew so they start at 100% it takes ~30,000 XP to reach 100% again, but this does seem to vary from tank to tank and doesn't appear to be linked to the number of members in the crew.

I suspect that there may be a hidden co-efficient that differs from tank to tank, or that the crew get a training bonus for victories that allows them to reach 100% faster than the 77,543 XP that you have calculated.

as OP and me said
fact: double xp doesnt show in statistics
fact: double xp is still awarded to the crew

so if you play only double rounds you could make it in 35k

barabaf #13 Posted 08 June 2011 - 03:22 PM

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View Postharry_monkley, on 08 June 2011 - 02:56 PM, said:

Nice graph barabaf,

From personal experience of starting tanks with 75% crews and noting accrued experience from the crew members statistics, to reach 100% requires usually ~65,000 XP, and when you transfer and retrain a crew so they start at 100% it takes ~30,000 XP to reach 100% again, but this does seem to vary from tank to tank and doesn't appear to be linked to the number of members in the crew.

I suspect that there may be a hidden co-efficient that differs from tank to tank, or that the crew get a training bonus for victories that allows them to reach 100% faster than the 77,543 XP that you have calculated.

As already said it seems the variation is not a tank parameter but only reflect the fact that the experience you see in your Crerw stats is under-evaluated because it doesn't show the "double xp for first win" while the % use it. So when you see around 65k in your stat you may actually have 77k

Edit : Lol too slow ;)

harry_monkley #14 Posted 09 June 2011 - 12:11 PM

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View Postincurably, on 08 June 2011 - 03:19 PM, said:

as OP and me said
fact: double xp doesnt show in statistics
fact: double xp is still awarded to the crew

so if you play only double rounds you could make it in 35k

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I started to note this during the beta long before they introduced double XP. I may well be incorrect as things stand now, but when double XP was first introduced, I observed that the double XP was only applied to the research XP on the tank it was earned on(not to total XP earned for that tank or total XP earned overall according to in game stats), and that crew developement on the tanks that I only played for the double XP occurred more slowly relative to the research speed of the vehicles that they were crewing, which is the reverse of what you are suggesting takes place.

My understanding of the double XP system based on observation was that it only applied to the XP available for research or conversion on the vehicle it was earned on, as all other relevant statistics only ever changed by the undoubled amount.

If you are correct about the double XP being applied and not shown, it begs the question why does this not tally correctly - when you use accellerate crew training, if you note the values, you can see that this is applied correctly, so does the crew have two stat values stored - (total XP inclusive of double) and (normalised XP not inclusive of double) and more importantly why bother to track one value(used to calculate crew skill) and display another?

I am quite tempted to try to test your hypothesis that it is possible to 100% a crew in 35K from only double rounds, so I will try to record the results for the next vehicle I start which I am not in a hurry to grind, as my curiosity is aroused.

Forduc #15 Posted 09 June 2011 - 02:59 PM

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View Postharry_monkley, on 09 June 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

If you are correct about the double XP being applied and not shown, it begs the question why does this not tally correctly - when you use accellerate crew training, if you note the values, you can see that this is applied correctly, so does the crew have two stat values stored - (total XP inclusive of double) and (normalised XP not inclusive of double) and more importantly why bother to track one value(used to calculate crew skill) and display another?

It would appear so. Probably just simple UI screwup as double experience was introduced later and doesn't affect any other statistics. So crew exp in statistics is done same way as tank statistics while actual skill gain is done same way as tank exp gain.

View Postharry_monkley, on 09 June 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

I am quite tempted to try to test your hypothesis that it is possible to 100% a crew in 35K from only double rounds, so I will try to record the results for the next vehicle I start which I am not in a hurry to grind, as my curiosity is aroused.

It would be easier to get two crews for a single tank and check progress at certain points. One crew takes all the doubles and other crew tries to keep up with skill gain.

Edit: Double exp theory would be proven if "double crew" would ever get higher skill with lower exp.

Edit2: Crew exp isn't directly connected to crew skills. Skill increase is function of exp increase, but there's no function to get exp from skill or skill from exp.

incurably #16 Posted 09 June 2011 - 03:05 PM

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View Postharry_monkley, on 09 June 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I started to note this during the beta long before they introduced double XP. I may well be incorrect as things stand now, but when double XP was first introduced, I observed that the double XP was only applied to the research XP on the tank it was earned on(not to total XP earned for that tank or total XP earned overall according to in game stats), and that crew developement on the tanks that I only played for the double XP occurred more slowly relative to the research speed of the vehicles that they were crewing, which is the reverse of what you are suggesting takes place.

My understanding of the double XP system based on observation was that it only applied to the XP available for research or conversion on the vehicle it was earned on, as all other relevant statistics only ever changed by the undoubled amount.

If you are correct about the double XP being applied and not shown, it begs the question why does this not tally correctly - when you use accellerate crew training, if you note the values, you can see that this is applied correctly, so does the crew have two stat values stored - (total XP inclusive of double) and (normalised XP not inclusive of double) and more importantly why bother to track one value(used to calculate crew skill) and display another?

I am quite tempted to try to test your hypothesis that it is possible to 100% a crew in 35K from only double rounds, so I will try to record the results for the next vehicle I start which I am not in a hurry to grind, as my curiosity is aroused.

that begs the question why isent it applied to your total expirience earned
same system they filter it out for stats and they went the same rout with research and total xp for the tanks

barabaf #17 Posted 09 June 2011 - 03:10 PM

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View Postharry_monkley, on 09 June 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

when you use accellerate crew training, if you note the values, you can see that this is applied correctly

Sorry but this is not what i see ... For what i know (but i admit not having tested this one very much) the xp earned with "accelerate crew training" is not shown in crew stat neither. I'll have a better look a it this evening and tell you my results


View Postharry_monkley, on 09 June 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

If you are correct about the double XP being applied and not shown ...

I have really tested it (by taking notes off all xp gain, double xp,  kill etc for a new crew) and i have good confidence it works as i have described it.


View Postharry_monkley, on 09 June 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

... it begs the question why does this not tally correctly - ... so does the crew have two stat values stored - (total XP inclusive of double) and (normalised XP not inclusive of double) and more importantly why bother to track one value(used to calculate crew skill) and display another?

Well this is something i have seen already in very "professional and controled" softwares. As an exemple you start with storing something for a specific purpose and after some time someone says "that would be nice to have this value displayed in this screen" but, while the two use of the value are different they are in different parts of the software, it's quite more easy to just add a second "calculation and storage" than modifing the first part to send the value to the new function ... if you mess something in the new function you end to display two different numbers for the same data ... weird but happens and even may be unnoticed for a while if the data diplayed is not critical.

barabaf #18 Posted 09 June 2011 - 06:50 PM

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Ok!  Back from battle :

I confirm that the xp gained with "accelerated crew training" is not shown in the crew stats (tested that with MS-1, T-26 and T-28 elite, sorry my new KV is far from elite so can't test it ;) )

Hope this will be fixed in next patch ...

pier4r #19 Posted 08 September 2011 - 07:22 PM

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View Postbarabaf, on 06 June 2011 - 06:41 PM, said:



Posted Image


excellent thread! (if anyone knows updated/better math, can link me the discussion?)

I noticed that wiki is wrong and someone should modifiy the article on the wiki. I don't know if the formula change for different tanks, but your formula doesn't match my stats. Since i understand that wiki's formula is wrong, i started to take stats to found the real formula then i start with a t26 already in elite status (i love tier2).

My commander stats are:
exp points / skill
0	50
371	51
691	52
985	53
1843	54
2072	55
2428	56
2861	57
3400	58
4082	59
4510	60
5315	61
6077	62
6407	63
7236	64
7911	65

with your formula should be
exp points / skill
0	50
500	51
1024	52
1572	53
2146	54
2747	55
3376	56
4036	57
4726	58
5449	59
6205	60
6998	61
7828	62
8696	63
9606	64
10559	65

that is much different. On a graph:

Posted Image
(your formula is purple, the stats are in blue)

i think that:
- something is changed OR
-(more likely) the formula is linear and not exponential OR
- some stats are hidden


anyway WoT dev team, imo, can release the code snippet about stats experience since that algorithm isn't so useful to other software houses.

pier4r #20 Posted 08 September 2011 - 07:49 PM

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View Postpier4r, on 08 September 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:


i think that:
- something is changed OR
-(more likely) the formula is linear and not exponential OR
- some stats are hidden

Ok i thought about hidden stats and your statement "accelerated trainging is not shown" then if my commander has X exp point, his real exp points are X+ X/3 (since t26 has 3 crew members and accelerated crew training assign the experience surplus, that one for research, almost equally for each member), then the stats are:

Shown stats -Stats shown+hidden(estimate) -Formula stats -Skill
0		0		0		50
371		493		500		51
691		919		1024		52
985		1310		1572		53
1843		2451		2146		54
2072		2756		2747		55
2428		3229		3376		56
2861		3805		4036		57
3400		4522		4726		58
4082		5429		5449		59
4510		5998		6205		60
5315		7069		6998		61
6077		8082		7828		62
6407		8521		8696		63
7236		9624		9606		64
7911		10522		10559		65

on graph:
Posted Image

It's almost the same! So, i will continute to gather data but your work is really great (and your formula, imo, is not trivial) and is likely to be right (hoping that someone of WoT team confirm your formula).




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