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M41 Walker Bulldog op?

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Ribba #21 Posted 18 November 2014 - 09:11 AM

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View PostRico4uk, on 18 November 2014 - 02:25 AM, said:

 

Typical statement from soneome who hasn't played either. T49 is a bit troll, but if any of them are close to OP, its the M41

 

If we only look at the firepower of this LT, it's by far OP. In a straight up fight, standing still, front to front to a T29, it can kill the T29 faster then the T29 can kill off the M41. Only if the T29 have preloaded HE and have two very lucky RNG-rolls, it may finish of the M41 before it finishes of you.

 

And that is wrong. A light tank should lose in 19 out of 19 such skirmishes against similar tier HT's.



tumppi776 #22 Posted 18 November 2014 - 09:28 AM

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View PostRibba, on 18 November 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

 

If we only look at the firepower of this LT, it's by far OP. In a straight up fight, standing still, front to front to a T29, it can kill the T29 faster then the T29 can kill off the M41. Only if the T29 have preloaded HE and have two very lucky RNG-rolls, it may finish of the M41 before it finishes of you.

 

And that is wrong. A light tank should lose in 19 out of 19 such skirmishes against similar tier HT's.

 

Ah but Bulldog is not tier 7 tank except on paper only. It'll never be top tier in tier 7 game - where as T29 will find itself there often. T8 tank should be able to dispose any lower tier tank and that Bulldog can do (although I would not ever try a thing like you described - T29 gets quite a few hull bounces from Bulldog especially from front quadrant).

 

M41 sees a lot of tier 10's too T29 none.



Ribba #23 Posted 18 November 2014 - 09:56 AM

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View Posttumppi776, on 18 November 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

 

Ah but Bulldog is not tier 7 tank except on paper only. It'll never be top tier in tier 7 game - where as T29 will find itself there often. T8 tank should be able to dispose any lower tier tank and that Bulldog can do (although I would not ever try a thing like you described - T29 gets quite a few hull bounces from Bulldog especially from front quadrant).

 

M41 sees a lot of tier 10's too T29 none.

 

I know that it isn't regarded as one in the MM, but on the tech three, it is a tier 7 tank and it should therefore be compared to other tier 7 vehicles and not tier 8 vehicles.

 

And no, it wasn't regarded as a recommended tactic, it was just to demonstrate that the tier 7 light tanks is more powerful then a fully equipped tier 7 heavy tank and you can beat it even if you play like an idiot (if also the T29 driver plays an idiot).

 

Regarding the MM some light tanks gets is wrong in the way it give wrong impressions to inexperienced players. I have no problem that those vehicles are getting into high tier matches, but their strengths should be mobility and camo-ratings, not fire power. And if I have understood it correctly, the M41 has both good camo-rating and good mobility. It also have better view range then it's LT rivals. So if feels wrong that it also gets the type of firepower that heavy tanks can't even match. And I guess the overall WR for the Walker Bulldog is proving me correctly. It's simply out performs all other light tanks. And they see T10 tanks also.



azakow #24 Posted 18 November 2014 - 10:05 AM

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View PostRibba, on 18 November 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

 

If we only look at the firepower of this LT, it's by far OP. In a straight up fight, standing still, front to front to a T29, it can kill the T29 faster then the T29 can kill off the M41. Only if the T29 have preloaded HE and have two very lucky RNG-rolls, it may finish of the M41 before it finishes of you.

 

And that is wrong. A light tank should lose in 19 out of 19 such skirmishes against similar tier HT's.

This is far from battlefield reality, hence worth nothing.

 

I try to push any of my LT to their limits.

When i compare the Bulldog to the other LT in my garage, I get this:

Spoiler

 

To me this is an indicator of OP'ness at LT7.

I like this alot. My opponents rarely do.

We will see what the future brings, until then enjoy!



Ribba #25 Posted 18 November 2014 - 12:09 PM

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View Postazakow, on 18 November 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

This is far from battlefield reality, hence worth nothing.

 

I try to push any of my LT to their limits.

When i compare the Bulldog to the other LT in my garage, I get this:

Spoiler

 

To me this is an indicator of OP'ness at LT7.

I like this alot. My opponents rarely do.

We will see what the future brings, until then enjoy!

 

Actually, it is worth a lot, something your list also backs up. You've manage dealing almost 27% more average damage per battle with your M41 then you have done with next best tier 7 LT.

 

And it would have been fun seeing how your tier 7 HT's, MT's and TD's stacks up on your damage dealt list.



hajvej #26 Posted 18 November 2014 - 12:24 PM

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its always funny to se how players whit low amount of batlles always whining about some tanks, lets resume a bit.. its a light tank so no armour.. the pen is average at best and the damage per shot also.. dont forget about the camo which is not that great..

 

so if you let m41 to put more then 3 shots in you its not the tank that is OP, its you that is the problem so i sugest that you should learn the mechanics of the game before you write something

 

more then anything i dare every one of you whiners to go and try it yourself the m41 and then come back and write a review, m41 dies in just a few sec just like any other scout in wrong hands..

 

 

p.s. your whining about a light tank.. omg you loosers..



azakow #27 Posted 18 November 2014 - 12:24 PM

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View PostRibba, on 18 November 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

 

Actually, it is worth a lot, something your list also backs up. You've manage dealing almost 27% more average damage per battle with your M41 then you have done with next best tier 7 LT.

 

And it would have been fun seeing how your tier 7 HT's, MT's and TD's stacks up on your damage dealt list.

I know that my list is a backup for your statement of OP'ness. Still the setup you chose is worth nothing since it has little to do with battlefield reality.

I am afraid that the MT7 list might be fun, but will be as useless to find more backup.

Spoiler

 

 

View Posttumppi776, on 18 November 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

M41 sees a lot of tier 10's too T29 none.

Such MM is time to excel.


Edited by azakow, 18 November 2014 - 12:25 PM.


azakow #28 Posted 18 November 2014 - 01:52 PM

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View Posthajvej, on 18 November 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

its always funny to se how players whit low amount of batlles always whining about some tanks, lets resume a bit.. its a light tank so no armour.. the pen is average at best and the damage per shot also.. dont forget about the camo which is not that great..

 

so if you let m41 to put more then 3 shots in you its not the tank that is OP, its you that is the problem so i sugest that you should learn the mechanics of the game before you write something

 

more then anything i dare every one of you whiners to go and try it yourself the m41 and then come back and write a review, m41 dies in just a few sec just like any other scout in wrong hands..

 

 

p.s. your whining about a light tank.. omg you loosers..

They may have a low match count, but are entitled to have their opinion and may express this aswell. This might be frustrating at times.

 

Your theory about the low camo value of the M41 has to be proven.



MkH #29 Posted 18 November 2014 - 02:21 PM

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View PostRibba, on 18 November 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

 

I know that it isn't regarded as one in the MM, but on the tech three, it is a tier 7 tank and it should therefore be compared to other tier 7 vehicles and not tier 8 vehicles.

 

http://ftr.wot-news....-1410444155.jpg

 

 

In my opinion it should be compared to t8, because it is matched as a t8. Previously arty used to have similar matchmaking.

 

And I don't see it winning t8 tanks in 1 vs 1.


Edited by MkH, 18 November 2014 - 02:22 PM.


Eila_Juutilainen #30 Posted 18 November 2014 - 02:56 PM

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View PostRibba, on 18 November 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

 

I know that it isn't regarded as one in the MM, but on the tech three, it is a tier 7 tank and it should therefore be compared to other tier 7 vehicles and not tier 8 vehicles.

 

You should compare it to the vehicles it fights against/with. So yes, comparing it to a tier 8 is the only valid view, as long as we're talking Random Battles. Team Battles are a different thing.

GuzganuRozaliu #31 Posted 18 November 2014 - 03:21 PM

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View PostRico4uk, on 18 November 2014 - 04:25 AM, said:

Typical statement from soneome who hasn't played either. T49 is a bit troll, but if any of them are close to OP, its the M41

 

Thing is:

  • a tank with 910 hp and 150 alpha damage, that meets tier 9-10 tanks, cannot be OP.

​M41 Walker Bulldog is clearly superior in most ways to any of the other tier 7 light tanks!

In that way, yes, it is "Overpowered".

But a tank with those specs cannot be really OP, considering the tanks it meets.



Ribba #32 Posted 19 November 2014 - 01:36 AM

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View PostMkH, on 18 November 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

 

http://ftr.wot-news....-1410444155.jpg

 

 

In my opinion it should be compared to t8, because it is matched as a t8. Previously arty used to have similar matchmaking.

 

And I don't see it winning t8 tanks in 1 vs 1.

 

Actually, both tier 8 American heavy tanks and the 112 may lose to the M41 in such a silly fight. I'm not sure how much extra HP the IS-3 and the 110 get from their second turrets, but if the do not get anymore then 50 hp, also they can lose such a fight. The rest of the heavies, they are saved by their health pool.

 

But all the other vehicles, both tier 7 and tier 8, will potentially get killed within one full magazine of the M41, and most of these tanks will also not be able to kill of the M41 in the time the M41 potentially can kill off them. 

 

So if people cannot see that this is a tank that is clearly OP when it comes to firepower, they have a weird eye for reality. A light tank shouldn't be the tank with potentially the biggest fire power, potentially as it can kill off you before you can kill it off, on the field regardless of you see them as tier 7 or tier 8 vehicles.

 

Light tanks should rely on other strengths then raw fire power, strengths that the M41 clearly have since it the best performing tier 7 light tank by a rather huge margin. 



Ribba #33 Posted 19 November 2014 - 01:52 AM

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View PostGuzganuRozaliu, on 18 November 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

 

Thing is:

  • a tank with 910 hp and 150 alpha damage, that meets tier 9-10 tanks, cannot be OP.

​M41 Walker Bulldog is clearly superior in most ways to any of the other tier 7 light tanks!

In that way, yes, it is "Overpowered".

But a tank with those specs cannot be really OP, considering the tanks it meets.

 

That is actually an extremely idiotic statement. If Wargaming.net made av massively OP tier 7 heavy tank relative to the other tier 7 HT, you would actually be able to use your silly excuse for it to still be massively OP compared to its tier 7 rivals. Simply because it would not be better then the best tier 9 HT, and tier 7 HT can actually meet those tier 9 HT's.

 

A tank is must be regarded as OP if it performs massively better it's comparable tanks. That means that you compare it to the same tier and same type of tanks, not against tanks that should be much better since they have a higher tier.   

 

And the M41 does. It, on average on vBAddict, have dealt 798.29 damage per round. The next best tier 7 have only dealt 679.85 of damage per round. It kills 0,1 enemies per battle more then the next best, It earns almost 34 xp more pr battle, that's about 9% better. And it also have marginally a better WR. 

 

So basically, all the numbers tell the same story. The M41 is OP. 



Ribba #34 Posted 19 November 2014 - 02:06 AM

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View PostEila_Juutilainen, on 18 November 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

 

You should compare it to the vehicles it fights against/with. So yes, comparing it to a tier 8 is the only valid view, as long as we're talking Random Battles. Team Battles are a different thing.

 

It meets vehicles from tier 6 to tier 10. So no, I do not agree that it should be compared to tier 8 just because the MM gives LT's a higher weight. Because all mid and high tier LT's get the same treatment of the MM. If the M41 was the only one who got this treatment from the MM, yeah, I would agree with you, but it isn't alone getting the extra weight in the MM. And the LT's have always had it like this because the are regarded as scouts. Basically, the was considered being "poor", defenseless little scavengers who should spot for others. The M41 has a very, very nasty bite and can rather easily kill off tier 8 vehicles. And it has all the benefits of being a LT. Fast, nimble, good camo rate, and it also have a nice view range. 

 

So it is on the tier 7 on the the tech three, and it's HP is relative to the tier 7 vehicles, and at such, it should be threated as a tier 7. If it was considered a tier 8, it would have been placed as a tier 8 LT. 



GuzganuRozaliu #35 Posted 19 November 2014 - 02:30 AM

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View PostRibba, on 19 November 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

 

That is actually an extremely idiotic statement. If Wargaming.net made av massively OP tier 7 heavy tank relative to the other tier 7 HT, you would actually be able to use your silly excuse for it to still be massively OP compared to its tier 7 rivals. Simply because it would not be better then the best tier 9 HT, and tier 7 HT can actually meet those tier 9 HT's.

 

A tank is must be regarded as OP if it performs massively better it's comparable tanks. That means that you compare it to the same tier and same type of tanks, not against tanks that should be much better since they have a higher tier.   

 

And the M41 does. It, on average on vBAddict, have dealt 798.29 damage per round. The next best tier 7 have only dealt 679.85 of damage per round. It kills 0,1 enemies per battle more then the next best, It earns almost 34 xp more pr battle, that's about 9% better. And it also have marginally a better WR. 

 

So basically, all the numbers tell the same story. The M41 is OP. 

 

No, this is an idiotic statement: "A tier 7 tank that meets tier 9 cannot be OP"

That's what you understood from what I wrote.

But, you see, what I actually wrote was:

View PostGuzganuRozaliu, on 18 November 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

Thing is:

  • a tank with 910 hp and 150 alpha damage, that meets tier 9-10 tanks, cannot be OP.

​M41 Walker Bulldog is clearly superior in most ways to any of the other tier 7 light tanks!

In that way, yes, it is "Overpowered".

But a tank with those specs cannot be really OP, considering the tanks it meets.

 

If you wanna compare a tier 7 light tank with other tanks than tier 7 light tanks, please compare it with a tier 8 medium tank, since it gets the same MM weight.

Not with a tier 7 heavy tank.

Yes, the M41 Walker Bulldog is clearly Over-Peforming.

But NO! It is not Over-Powered!

A tank with 910 HP, no armour, 150 Alpha Damage, 175 penetration and tier 8-11 MM cannot be OP.

It very rarely meets tanks it can bully ( tier 6 and 7 ) and most of the times it's up against tanks it can barely penetrate.

And BTW, this is an idiotic argument:

"And the M41 does. It, on average on vBAddict, have dealt 798.29 damage per round. The next best tier 7 have only dealt 679.85 of damage per round. It kills 0,1 enemies per battle more then the next best, It earns almost 34 xp more pr battle, that's about 9% better. And it also have marginally a better WR." 

How can you compare a light tank with scout MM with the whole of the other tier 7 tanks? :veryhappy:

Statistics mean nothing if you don't use logic to analise the data input.:tongue:



hajvej #36 Posted 19 November 2014 - 03:18 AM

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View Postazakow, on 18 November 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

They may have a low match count, but are entitled to have their opinion and may express this aswell. This might be frustrating at times..

 

 

 



MkH #37 Posted 19 November 2014 - 11:26 AM

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View PostRibba, on 19 November 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

 

Actually, both tier 8 American heavy tanks and the 112 may lose to the M41 in such a silly fight. I'm not sure how much extra HP the IS-3 and the 110 get from their second turrets, but if the do not get anymore then 50 hp, also they can lose such a fight. The rest of the heavies, they are saved by their health pool.

 

But all the other vehicles, both tier 7 and tier 8, will potentially get killed within one full magazine of the M41, and most of these tanks will also not be able to kill of the M41 in the time the M41 potentially can kill off them. 

 

Heavy and medium tanks have armor, and it takes 18 seconds to unload the magazine. In practice it would be very difficult to kill a t8 tank with a single magazine - I have yet to do it myself. If you try to plow your way through the enemies with the help of autoloader and DPM, you are going to have bad time. In my opinion the autoloader gun has little to do with what makes the Bulldog competitive. Most players prefer the regular gun anyway.

 

View PostRibba, on 19 November 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

So if people cannot see that this is a tank that is clearly OP when it comes to firepower, they have a weird eye for reality. A light tank shouldn't be the tank with potentially the biggest fire power, potentially as it can kill off you before you can kill it off, on the field regardless of you see them as tier 7 or tier 8 vehicles.

 

Light tanks should rely on other strengths then raw fire power, strengths that the M41 clearly have since it the best performing tier 7 light tank by a rather huge margin. 

 

Whatever something is potentially, it may not be that in practice. 150 alpha damage and 175 pen just isn't overpowered on t8, no matter how you look at it. Firepower wise the AFK Panther is quite close to the Bulldog - even better, if you use a lot of premium ammo. What makes the Bulldog so much superior to it, is the mobility, gun depression, camo and other stats.

 

If the Bulldog was rebranded as a t8 medium tank (with no changes done to it) - as a light alternative to Pershing and T69 - the forums would be full of people telling how underpowered it is. "Too few hitpoints, too little alpha damage, bad penetration and no armor. Also too big for scouting!"

 

Like someone said: yes, it's overperforming compared to t7 lights (some of the least useful tanks in the game). That does not make it overpowered in absolute terms. My Volkswagen Polo is powerful compared to a bicycle, but I still would not call it a powerful car.


Edited by MkH, 19 November 2014 - 04:50 PM.


Eila_Juutilainen #38 Posted 19 November 2014 - 01:58 PM

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View PostRibba, on 19 November 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

 

It meets vehicles from tier 6 to tier 10. So no, I do not agree that it should be compared to tier 8 just because the MM gives LT's a higher weight. Because all mid and high tier LT's get the same treatment of the MM. If the M41 was the only one who got this treatment from the MM, yeah, I would agree with you, but it isn't alone getting the extra weight in the MM. And the LT's have always had it like this because the are regarded as scouts. Basically, the was considered being "poor", defenseless little scavengers who should spot for others. The M41 has a very, very nasty bite and can rather easily kill off tier 8 vehicles. And it has all the benefits of being a LT. Fast, nimble, good camo rate, and it also have a nice view range. 

 

So it is on the tier 7 on the the tech three, and it's HP is relative to the tier 7 vehicles, and at such, it should be threated as a tier 7. If it was considered a tier 8, it would have been placed as a tier 8 LT. 

 

And a normal tier 7 meets vehicles from tier 5 to 9.  So a normal tier 7 is stronger simply because it has better MM. A tier 7 scout has the same MM as a tier 8, and as such it should be judged as one . The position in the tech tree is irrelevant, a normal tier 7 tank won't fight tier 10 tanks, but it will get to molest tier 5s. It has to fight in the exact same arena as a tier 8 tank, not a tier 7 tank.

 

You compare a tank to it's peers. For a tier 7 LT, that's tier 8 tanks. You can argue all you want about scouting and how the LT role was in the past, but it's not relevant. MM considers the M41 WB a tier 8 tank despite it's 'official' tier being 7. Deal with it.



azakow #39 Posted 19 November 2014 - 05:44 PM

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View PostEila_Juutilainen, on 19 November 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

You compare a tank to it's peers. For a tier 7 LT, that's tier 8 tanks.

So it is a MT8 that is squeezing himself into the clothing of a LT7.

Lets have a look at MT8 then.

I think the seams of that LT7 clothing (1500 dmg) are quite strong.

Spoiler

 

So it seems the tech tree positions of T71 and M41 should be swapped. This way each vehilce line would be more consistent.



Hagbardur #40 Posted 02 December 2014 - 09:33 PM

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Can everyone just take a few days off playing the Bulldog? I'm trying to get Ace on it and it's not working!

 

1465 base XP and 1386 base XP should be enough but they aren't!







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