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Somnorila #81 Posted 18 December 2014 - 01:08 PM

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Some call it stealing and some call it access to knowledge this will never change. Companies make money that is their purpose and always seek the best deal, people are the same and free is way better than 0.00001 dollars euros whatever any time so don't cast blame for something you do it yourself. Kim .com and others made money by giving free access to price restricted stuff so what the hell is holding the content creators to do exactly that, gather together and  on a access free platform and keep that advertising money themselves but i guess that if it would be all legitimate no one will still buy their stuff at 50+euros. I guess that selling overpriced and reap the rewards of content sharing while acting judgemental about it is the best. The future is all bout free and easy access to anything some companies have seen this and their monetization strategies are slowly changing, tell me how many of you played a game or watched a movie that left them with a bitter taste because felt that it didn't worth the time not even mention their price. That in a situation where your computer costs like 3-4 AAA games launch price it surely makes the idea of try before you buy much more appealing. Or how many of you tried to make a movie, an animation, music, if you were needed to buy a software every time you try something to find out if you are good or bad at it you would have a ton of useless software and a huge dent in your wallet but the most probable is that you would never even tried to do anything and never found out that maybe you are a talented artist. Free and easy access to knowledge is good for all of us even for the ones that say it is stealing because at some point many of them stole and many of their customers come because they had tried and concluded that they need that product and worth a buy. Creators and users must work together not be on opposite sides, calling it stealing is a clear sign of a narrow mind still living in the past.

Edited by Somnorila, 18 December 2014 - 01:18 PM.


ammarmar #82 Posted 18 December 2014 - 02:37 PM

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View PostAdwaenyth, on 18 December 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

So you can either think about how to prevent people from circumventing that license or think about another model of paying for the work. I'd prefer the latter, but way to few people seem to be willing to do that.

 

That's actually the smartest thing I've read in this topic and the clue of the problem. Old ways do not work anymore and have to go. Trying to preserve them is doomed to fail.

2Tee2 #83 Posted 18 December 2014 - 03:14 PM

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View PostAddicus, on 17 December 2014 - 11:41 PM, said:

 

The word 'Theft' is right there in the law's title. It's technically theft via copyright infringment.

 

 

remember, slavery used to be legal and governed by law


 

shouldnt it be copyright infringement via theft, technically? :D



Sapaki #84 Posted 18 December 2014 - 03:38 PM

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View PostAdwaenyth, on 18 December 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

 

If it would just be that simple. If I pay him for this information in the classical sense of a product, then I'd own the copy of information he gave me. Now that I didn't steal it (hey i bought it) I could do anything I want with that copy. ANYTHING would mean, I can copy it to whomever I'd want. Since digital information copies lossless and for next to no cost anywhere on the world nowadays... - well I think I don't need to continue. That is the world that exists now. The copyright is ineffective against that and I doubt any more sanctions would actually help here. This is simple pragmatism.

 

Now you can either keep talking about copyright and how it is unfair to circumvent it or think about a solution that works for both sides. Copyright obviously doesn't otherwise there wouldn't be that many sites that share information unlicensed.

 

Btw. look at the copyright history. It wasn't invented to compensate authors but to compensate the infrastructure since then you still had to print a book to make the information available to other people back then.

 

Exactly my point. He is giving you this information and asking you NOT to distribute it to others. If you do so, you are in breach of the contract between you two.

 

Getting the information or data you paid for is within the deal. Distributing it is not. This does not exclude private use (you can watch a movie with your friends or family).

 

Basicaly it is very simple, only people want to make it complicated so that they can justify what they do: Getting a service from others without paying money.

 

Don't be those people. Support what you love, pay for it. It is that simple.



UNARMOURED #85 Posted 18 December 2014 - 04:09 PM

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View Postammarmar, on 18 December 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

 

That's actually the smartest thing I've read in this topic and the clue of the problem. Old ways do not work anymore and have to go. Trying to preserve them is doomed to fail.

 

Okay, to try and move this discussion on, using a film as an example (DVD/stream/download etc. not going to the cinema), please propose a purchasing model which you would deem acceptable as a starting point.

 

If not a film then try an application, game or record.



2Tee2 #86 Posted 18 December 2014 - 04:17 PM

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huh, speaking of business models, aint it funny that US$3000 software costs 3000 euros in Europe :girl:


 

for the record ive pirated tons of applications for fun, never used a single unlicensed copy commercially though :amazed:



ammarmar #87 Posted 18 December 2014 - 05:17 PM

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View PostThe_Foolio, on 18 December 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

 

Okay, to try and move this discussion on, using a film as an example (DVD/stream/download etc. not going to the cinema), please propose a purchasing model which you would deem acceptable as a starting point.

 

If not a film then try an application, game or record.

 

Give me a Steam with movies. Where I can download and watch any movie I have ever bought, without any time restrictions, on any device I want, without advertisments etc. A friendly user interface and a single, customizable library with all your purchases will not hurt, either.

 

Since Steam became available for me, I did not download a single pirated game, because it is actually easier for me to buy it. I don't care about the price.



UNARMOURED #88 Posted 18 December 2014 - 05:45 PM

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View Postammarmar, on 18 December 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

 

Give me a Steam with movies. Where I can download and watch any movie I have ever bought, without any time restrictions, on any device I want, without advertisments etc. A friendly user interface and a single, customizable library with all your purchases will not hurt, either.

 

Since Steam became available for me, I did not download a single pirated game, because it is actually easier for me to buy it. I don't care about the price.

 

You mean something like Blinkbox to buy new stuff? Or Handbrake to rip existing stuff?

 


Edited by The_Foolio, 18 December 2014 - 05:48 PM.


ammarmar #89 Posted 18 December 2014 - 06:10 PM

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View PostThe_Foolio, on 18 December 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

 

You mean something like Blinkbox to buy new stuff? Or Handbrake to rip existing stuff?

 

 

I've never heard of either before, but since you've mentioned them:

 

1) "Sorry, but blinkbox movies and TV shows are currently only available in the UK"

 

2) Why would I need a video encoding software?

 

I've also tested iTunes - they did not have Game of Thrones, South Park and even any of Star Wars movies... I've stopped searching after that. Netflix is not available where I live.


Edited by ammarmar, 18 December 2014 - 06:13 PM.


panzeraustirol #90 Posted 18 December 2014 - 06:18 PM

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Ahhh... where where the times when you put a quarter in a jukebox and select music... now you go on a totally not virus sites and select free viruses.



Adwaenyth #91 Posted 18 December 2014 - 06:47 PM

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View PostSapaki, on 18 December 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

 

Exactly my point. He is giving you this information and asking you NOT to distribute it to others. If you do so, you are in breach of the contract between you two.

 

Getting the information or data you paid for is within the deal. Distributing it is not. This does not exclude private use (you can watch a movie with your friends or family).

 

Basicaly it is very simple, only people want to make it complicated so that they can justify what they do: Getting a service from others without paying money.

 

Don't be those people. Support what you love, pay for it. It is that simple.

 

No it's not that simple, and unless you accept that, there is no reason discussing anything with you. You're not answering to arguments, you're hiding behind laws that have been outdated for decades now.



Sapaki #92 Posted 19 December 2014 - 09:28 AM

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View PostAdwaenyth, on 18 December 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

 

No it's not that simple, and unless you accept that, there is no reason discussing anything with you. You're not answering to arguments, you're hiding behind laws that have been outdated for decades now.

 

I am waiting to hear the solution that would suit both sides: One that has worked for something and the other that does not want to pay for it.

 

And I am not hiding behind laws, I am obeying them. If copyright laws tell you that it's illegal to distribute the information in question, there is no argument that can make it legal.

 

Again, the basis of the law is very simple.

 

Now the fact that several companies have actually taken advantage of the idiotic pirate bobs in order to pass additional "details" in these laws wich are not favorable to the consumer is another issue, which is much more complicated indeed.

 

Another thing (except higher prices) that us, paying customers have to pay because of piracy, but the essence remains the same.

 

In the end it all boils down to the fact that someone has to pay eventually.

 

All, that I have read from your behalf as an argument is that "it is complicated".

 

I am genuinely interested in a debate on why piracy is a good or legal thing to do. I am 100% anti-piracy, but if you give me solid arguments I am more than willing to reconsider my position. Please provide arguments forthe sake of the debate.

 

Cheers

 

Sap.

 



UNARMOURED #93 Posted 19 December 2014 - 11:01 AM

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View Postammarmar, on 18 December 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

 

I've never heard of either before, but since you've mentioned them:

 

1) "Sorry, but blinkbox movies and TV shows are currently only available in the UK"

 

2) Why would I need a video encoding software?

 

I've also tested iTunes - they did not have Game of Thrones, South Park and even any of Star Wars movies... I've stopped searching after that. Netflix is not available where I live.

 

So what you actually want is the entire media back catalogue of the Western world on tap, whenever you want it. This seems to fall under the category of "I want the moon on a stick. I have given you two options, which took me 2mins to find, and because you can't have it due to the lack of infrastructure or consumer big business penetration/interest in your country, then you'll just download it illegally instead. It's ironic really that I can have all these things, and yet I don't want any of them. Maybe you should consume some of the available media from your own country?



ammarmar #94 Posted 19 December 2014 - 01:36 PM

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View PostThe_Foolio, on 19 December 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

 

So what you actually want is the entire media back catalogue of the Western world on tap, whenever you want it. This seems to fall under the category of "I want the moon on a stick. I have given you two options, which took me 2mins to find, and because you can't have it due to the lack of infrastructure or consumer big business penetration/interest in your country, then you'll just download it illegally instead. It's ironic really that I can have all these things, and yet I don't want any of them. Maybe you should consume some of the available media from your own country?

 

It's not my fault that nobody wants my money.

Sapaki #95 Posted 19 December 2014 - 02:02 PM

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View Postammarmar, on 19 December 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

 

It's not my fault that nobody wants my money.

 

Ok I have one sound argument for piracy. If the content is not distributed in any form where you are (which is quite difficult but still possible) you could opt for downloading the pirated version.

 

I am not talking about game of thrones season 5 here, which come to your country sooner or later, but I can think of countries where there are freedom restrictions and you don't have access to the content because it has been banned or illegal there. I am thinking Iran, Korea (the good Korea), Cuba etc. 

 

Another case is that your country is too remote and somethings are just not distributed there.

 

Therefore pro-piracy argument #1: If there is absolutely no other way to get it, instead of not getting it at all you are better off getting a pirated version.

 

Seems legit, but not valid for the vast majority of countries or media, where most things are available one way or the other. 



Adwaenyth #96 Posted 19 December 2014 - 03:14 PM

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View PostSapaki, on 19 December 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

I am genuinely interested in a debate on why piracy is a good or legal thing to do. I am 100% anti-piracy, but if you give me solid arguments I am more than willing to reconsider my position. Please provide arguments forthe sake of the debate.

 

I'm not saying piracy is good.

 

I'm saying, that there would be no piracy if there wouldn't be a copyright.

 

Piracy didn't disappear because of the copyright - far from it, it emerged because of it. The more everyone tries to enforce it, the more piracy happens.

 

Remember, it worked before copyright was introduced - it even worked after that. When copyright was introduced in England, it wasn't for 100 years more that Germany implemented a similar law. These 100 years are almost exactly the time when Germany established itself as the country of the poets and thinkers - according to people favouring the copyright it should be the opposite of that.

 

So the question is how can we pay an author for his work without paying for the work itself. Well the solution might be crowd funding. The solution might be supported by ads. The solution might be only work when you're payed in advance. A general tax on all media streams that every artist gets a share of according to downloads, ......... The solution might be a combination of all the above.

 

Doesn't work? Well the current system doesn't work very well either. A selected few get very rich while a lot of unknown authors with very good ideas never get noticed. Allthough...some of this actually seems to work - at least partially (see Star Trek Axanar for example). But unless we really think about solving this mess instead of blaming everyone, we'll never get a working solution for everyone.

 

Btw. I said hiding behind the law not because the law is there, but because you mention it with every sentence. It doesn't matter if it exists or not. It obviously couldn't solve the problem about piracy - not even by a longshot. Piracy thrives and the actions done by the police and state officials are like a finger in the dike.

 

I say hiding behind the law because you won't even consider any argument here besides that it is illegal. Yeah, it is illegal - and ineffective, we've got that after the first post. The question is what can be done about it. More piracy laws obviously don't help, or do they? I can't see that, but please prove me wrong. The concept of copyright in itself is flawed. You can't stop a flood by putting up a sign saying "stop". I doubt that we will come up with a solution - but maybe help people understand that there is work involved in creating this information. All people see is "it can be copied, so why shouldn't i" instead of "he put a lot of effort in making this for us all, so let's help him back".


Edited by Adwaenyth, 19 December 2014 - 03:20 PM.


Sapaki #97 Posted 27 December 2014 - 11:17 PM

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View PostAdwaenyth, on 19 December 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

 

I'm not saying piracy is good.

 

I'm saying, that there would be no piracy if there wouldn't be a copyright.

 

Piracy didn't disappear because of the copyright - far from it, it emerged because of it. The more everyone tries to enforce it, the more piracy happens.

 

Remember, it worked before copyright was introduced - it even worked after that. When copyright was introduced in England, it wasn't for 100 years more that Germany implemented a similar law. These 100 years are almost exactly the time when Germany established itself as the country of the poets and thinkers - according to people favouring the copyright it should be the opposite of that.

 

So the question is how can we pay an author for his work without paying for the work itself. Well the solution might be crowd funding. The solution might be supported by ads. The solution might be only work when you're payed in advance. A general tax on all media streams that every artist gets a share of according to downloads, ......... The solution might be a combination of all the above.

 

Doesn't work? Well the current system doesn't work very well either. A selected few get very rich while a lot of unknown authors with very good ideas never get noticed. Allthough...some of this actually seems to work - at least partially (see Star Trek Axanar for example). But unless we really think about solving this mess instead of blaming everyone, we'll never get a working solution for everyone.

 

Btw. I said hiding behind the law not because the law is there, but because you mention it with every sentence. It doesn't matter if it exists or not. It obviously couldn't solve the problem about piracy - not even by a longshot. Piracy thrives and the actions done by the police and state officials are like a finger in the dike.

 

I say hiding behind the law because you won't even consider any argument here besides that it is illegal. Yeah, it is illegal - and ineffective, we've got that after the first post. The question is what can be done about it. More piracy laws obviously don't help, or do they? I can't see that, but please prove me wrong. The concept of copyright in itself is flawed. You can't stop a flood by putting up a sign saying "stop". I doubt that we will come up with a solution - but maybe help people understand that there is work involved in creating this information. All people see is "it can be copied, so why shouldn't i" instead of "he put a lot of effort in making this for us all, so let's help him back".

 

I agree that there should be a better and fairer system, and opensource, crowdfunding f2p etc. are actually showing the way.

 

On the other hand, I cannot blame the "system" or the "flawed law" for someone that knowingly gets something without paying when he is fully aware that he should be paying for it. No flawed system can justify this foul action as I see it. You have a choice. If you don't agree with the system, don't consume it's products. There are free alternatives.

 

The fact that some of these people are hiding behind sound anti-copyright arguments such as yours, makes matters even worse for me, as they are masquerading their piracy with some kind of ideological cloak.

 

I am not pro-copyright, but I am against piracy if that makes any sense to you.

 

For instance, the cheapos that today are not willing to pay 0.5c. for a song of their favorite band but they would rather rip it, are the same ones that tomorrow will look for hacks in the crowdfunding system as to get a copy of the work without paying for it. 






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